Thought y'all would want to know what Occupy DC thinks of Ron Paul

[noneedtoaggress]

Our whole fight against anarchists on this forum stems from people trying to label Ron Paul with labels he never uses.

@0:12

ADAM KOKESH: So you've described yourself as a voluntarist. Can you tell us what that means for the big picture, and what your ideal society would be, as a voluntarist?

RON PAUL: Voluntary means no coercion. So if you want to change people's habits or change the world you should do it by setting examples and trying to persuade people to do it. You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. So voluntary use of information and persuading people, I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at.

 

[Travlyr]

Adam described Ron Paul as a Voluntarist. That is not something I would have done. Ron Paul clearly understands a voluntary society and did not object because, imo, he was talking to Adam who shares his values. He would not have said that to Wolf Biltzer because Ron is running for president.

Perfect voluntaryism is impossible in this life. Relative voluntaryism is achievable under the constitution and more wholly under a revised (amended) constitution. Right now the people in charge are above the law. The rule of law is important. While the constitution is what we have in the 21st century... it can be improved upon.

Why do you ignore Ron Paul's claim, "Defender of Liberty... Supporter of the Constitution" ?

 

[noneedtoaggress]

Adam described Ron Paul as a Voluntarist. That is not something I would have done. Ron Paul clearly understands a voluntary society and did not object because, imo, he was talking to Adam who shares his values. He would not have said that to Wolf Biltzer because Ron is running for president.

This is nothing but an assertion of how you feel Ron would act.

Perfect voluntaryism is impossible in this life. Relative voluntaryism is achievable under the constitution and more wholly under a revised (amended) constitution. Right now the people in charge are above the law. The rule of law is important. While the constitution is what we have in the 21st century... it can be improved upon.

Why do you ignore Ron Paul's claim, "Defender of Liberty... Supporter of the Constitution" ?

I don't. I know he at least supports the constitution in his role as a politician. He swore an oath of office to honor it in his duties as a representative.

 

[Travlyr]

This is nothing but an assertion of how you feel Ron would act.

Still Ron Paul did not say, "I am a voluntaryist" nor did he say, "I am an anarchist."

Labeling others is wrong. Mises didn't become an anarchist until after he died. That's BS. And people doing it are wrong for doing it.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Perfect voluntaryism is impossible in this life. Relative voluntaryism is achievable under the constitution and more wholly under a revised (amended) constitution. Right now the people in charge are above the law. The rule of law is important. While the constitution is what we have in the 21st century... it can be improved upon.

Why do you ignore Ron Paul's claim, "Defender of Liberty... Supporter of the Constitution" ?

Nobody is ignoring it, we're all well aware that Ron Paul believes in and supports using the Constitution to try and limit government.... However we also point out that he also recognizes the fundamental reality of government and liberty, and how they are not compatible with each other. He often says things like...

"Government is the enemy of liberty" - Ron Paul @ CPAC

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." Ron Paul, End the Fed

"Governments by their very nature, notoriously compete with liberty, even when the stated purpose for establishing a particular government is to protect liberty." - Ron Paul, Introduction to Liberty Defined

He also seems to be in no way opposed to Voluntary alternatives to the constitution, to the point of even suggesting that it might even be "really what his goal is".

(Go to 4m5s)



MHD: "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is."

 

[Travlyr]

Nobody is ignoring it, we're all well aware that Ron Paul believes in using the Constitution to try and limit government.... However we also point out that he also recognizes the fundamental reality of government and liberty, and how they are not compatible with each other. He often says things like...

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." Ron Paul, End the Fed

"Governments by their very nature, notoriously compete with liberty, even when the stated purpose for establishing a particular government is to protect liberty." - Ron Paul, Introduction to Liberty Defined

He also seems to be in no way opposed to Voluntary alternatives to the constitution, to the point of even suggesting that it might even be "really what his goal is".

Back to the "gotcha" video eh, Clay Trainor? Don't you just wish that Ron Paul would come out with a new one so you could say, "I told you so." I'll bet he is more careful these days. Until he does, I take Ron Paul at his word as the "Champion of the Constitution", defender of the rule of law, and defender of liberty through constitutional principles using honest sound money.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Back to the "gotcha" video eh, Clay Trainor? Don't you just wish that Ron Paul would come out with a new one so you could say, "I told you so."

Ummm... there are plenty of similar quotes where he argues for total liberty, and I've already provided far more than just that one video.

I'm sure he'll come out with plenty of new ones, since he makes those kinds of arguments on a consistent basis... I doubt they'll have any effect on you, just as the plethora of previous ones have not.

i.e.

Scary stuff ... for sure. I don't need any more of the anarchists crap in my life. I need to rethink who I support for president.

I'll bet he is more careful these days. Until he does, I take Ron Paul at his word as the "Champion of the Constitution", defender of the rule of law, and defender of liberty through constitutional principles using honest sound money.

I'll take him at his word as well...

"Government is the enemy of liberty" - Ron Paul @ CPAC

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." Ron Paul, End the Fed

"Governments by their very nature, notoriously compete with liberty, even when the stated purpose for establishing a particular government is to protect liberty." - Ron Paul, Introduction to Liberty Defined

 

[noneedtoaggress]

Back to the "gotcha" video eh, Clay Trainor? Don't you just wish that Ron Paul would come out with a new one so you could say, "I told you so." I'll bet he is more careful these days. Until he does, I take Ron Paul at his word as the "Champion of the Constitution", defender of the rule of law, and defender of liberty through constitutional principles using honest sound money.

Of course you will... anything else would be "heresy and false idols".

 

[Travlyr]

Digging up old quotes and taking people out of context is disingenuous and a shitty way to debate. What do you have an archive of everything I ever wrote handy to misrepresent what I say?

Taking Ron Paul out of context is the exact same crap he has had to deal with his entire life.

You really should stop doing it, Clay Trainor. It is childish and disrespectful.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Digging up old quotes and taking people out of context is disingenuous and a shitty way to debate.

Nothing is out of context, and everything I've cited is linked to the full context in some way, whether it's a page number, a youtube video, a mention of the speech it was from, or a link to the thread in which you maid the quote.

I welcome people to check out the full context.

What do you have an archive of everything I ever wrote handy to misrepresent what I say?

No, just a good memory and the ability to use the search function.

 

[Lothario]

Still Ron Paul did not say, "I am a voluntaryist" nor did he say, "I am an anarchist."

The video is crystal clear.

To Ron Paul: "You've described yourself as a voluntaryist. Can you tell us what that means, and what your ideal society would be as a voluntaryist?"

Ron Paul responds: "...you can only use force when someone uses force against you. So voluntary use of information and persuading people >>I<< think is the best way to go, no matter what kind of problem you're looking at"

To Ron Paul: "Do you think we have a chance of achieving a society based on those ideals in America?"

Ron Paul responds: "Not soon - we had a relative voluntary society in our early history. But steadily, even after the constitution was passed, it (the relative voluntary society) was undermined, and it systematically grew...that is, the authoritarian approach, which is the opposite..."

It could not be clearer. Ron Paul accepts the label voluntaryist - he proceeds to explain "his" ideal voluntary society, one that uses "persuasion" and never initiates force of any kind, which he describes as "the best way to go, no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

Ron Paul then says we had a "relative" voluntary society early on around the time of the constitution - relative because of the limited amount of "authoritarianism" present in the system, the limited authoritarian approach which "systematically grew" into what we have today.

Ron says we likely won't have his ideal voluntary society "soon," his ideal voluntary society being differentiated from the "relative" voluntary society of America at the time of the constitution whereby a limited government was present.

It's so so clear - but I'm sure you could maintain your "earth is the center of the universe" approach by using the medieval astronomers' exceedingly complicated explanation of circles within circles within circles to explain the planetary orbits. But, if you just place the sun at the center of the solar system, everything falls into place quite simply without the need for your complicated reasoning to get around the apparently simple truth of Dr. Paul's words.

Ron Paul's ideal society is a voluntary society - in his own words. He has decided the best way for him to change the world is through the political stage - whereby he took an oath to defend the constitution. Ron Paul is a man of his word - and therefore he represents himself as a "supporter of the constitution," clearly believing that a "relative voluntary society" based on the constitution is better than what we have now. He maintains however, that a completely voluntary society is still "the best way to go, no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

 

[Travlyr]

I welcome people to check out the full context.

Now they wouldn't need to do that if you was posting my comments within the original context, now would they. It shows me that you have no argument. Your intention is to poison the well because you have nothing of importance to say. That's the way media treats Ron Paul too. It's pathetic.

 

[noneedtoaggress]

Until he does, I take Ron Paul at his word as the "Champion of the Constitution"

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." Ron Paul, End the Fed

@6:14

Ron: Well, I tell you what... I don't critisize Lysander....
but... and his point is very well taken.
Maybe someday we'll mature to that point.

Hey there champ, I think we need to work on your strategy.
/

I don't. I know he at least supports the constitution in his role as a politician. He swore an oath of office to honor it in his duties as a representative.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Now they wouldn't need to do that if you was posting my comments within the original context, now would they.

I posted your entire comment, with a direct link to the thread in which you said it. What was I supposed to do, post the entire thread in here, in order to have full context?

It shows me that you have no argument. Your intention is to poison the well because you have nothing of importance to say. That's the way media treats Ron Paul too. It's pathetic.

Pure vitriol.

 

[Travlyr]

You people do realize that Ron Paul is running for president, right? The highest state office in the world, right? President of the United States of America. Commander in Chief. Right? You don't have to be a third grade graduate to understand this stuff.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Hey there, champ! You're doin' it wrong!

Another great Ron Paul quote with regards to spooner!

Liberty Defined, page 70

"Lysander Spooner carried this argument further. He believed that only a "few" consented (to the constitution). Therefore, the Constitution should not apply to those who did not give their personal consent to cede any personal liberty (power) to the state. This is an interesting argument, but it's not likely to make much headway at this stage in our history. Enforcing the Tenth Amendment is a big enough challenge to us for now.

All of Spooner's writings are worthy of study."

 

[Travlyr]

I posted your entire comment, with a direct link to the thread in which you said it.

Out of context.

What was I supposed to do, post the entire thread in here, in order to have full context?

That would be the honest way.

 

[noneedtoaggress]

You people do realize that Ron Paul is running for president, right? The highest state office in the world, right? President of the United States of America. Commander in Chief. Right? You don't have to be a third grade graduate to understand this stuff.

I'm fully aware of that fact, and your attempt to call us less intelligent than third graders is meaningless.

 

[WarNoMore]

He's running not for what he wants to do but for what he doesn't want done. Stopping the bleeding is one thing, but it might also be a good idea to wrestle away the knife from the man stabbing you. If an election is held every four years to decide who gets to wield that knife, well why not run to make sure you get control of the knife and nobody gets stabbed?

 

[Travlyr]

Another great Ron Paul quote with regards to spooner!

Liberty Defined, page 70

"Lysander Spooner carried this argument further. He believed that only a "few" consented (to the constitution). Therefore, the Constitution should not apply to those who did not give their personal consent to cede any personal liberty (power) to the state. This is an interesting argument, but it's not likely to make much headway at this stage in our history. Enforcing the Tenth Amendment is a big enough challenge to us for now.

All of Spooner's writings are worthy of study."

Clay Trainor's conclusion: Ron Paul advocates everything Lysander Spooner ever said. That's why Ron is running for president so he can abolish the "Constitution of No Authority." Sheesh.