This sub-forum needs education

[voortrekker]

Hello Everyone,

I venture to this sub-forum from time to time maybe once a week.

The posts and threads are positve for the most part, but reasoning really stands to be seen.

It really, really disappoints me to see people buying this or that firearm and they are all fired up about it. They buy "something" and they could have bought more with their Federal Reserve Notes.

I've been there. Learn from someone who has spent his money and learned is lessons.

My advice, the ABSOLUTE first purchase should be to buy this $28.00 book :

"Boston's Gun Bible"

by Boston T. Party


This book is ABSOLUTELY indespensible.

http://www.amazon.com/Bostons-Gun-B...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202093166&sr=1-1


My recommendation depends on where you live.

If you live in the city, I would have at least, a shotgun loaded with buck-shot, a pistol at 9mm up to .45 ACP, and ESPECIALLY a RIFLE, AR-15, AK-47 semi-auto variant, or the SKS.

If you don't have alot of money right now, buy an SKS. You will get one for $200 and they are very reliable and will out shoot the AK-47 semi-auto variants.

Buy your rifle first, then buy a pistol for home or to fight your way back to your rifle.

Shotguns are the BEST for defending your home while you are IN YOUR home.


If you live in the country, I would recommend something that reaches out more. Here we are thinking 300yds and greater.

Pick rifles in the .308 or 30-06 caliber, why these calibers? They are VERY common calibers, one can find rounds to buy almost anywhere.

If you live in the country, first I would get a M1A...M1 Garand....or a FAL. They are semi-auto and time proven.

A good old fashion deer rifle would be my second choice.

THEN, buy a shot-gun for home defense, then buy a reliable pistol.

Let's not forget ammo, I would buy at least 200 to 300 rounds of ammo for my rifle at ABSOLUTE minimum to have at home during any time.

The shot-gun 20 rds, buck-shot.

The pistol 50 rds.

Rembember, you need to practice shooting. It does no good to own these tools of LIBERTY unless you know how to use them. You need to go out at least every two months and practice.

Another really GREAT tip, you almost ALWAYS get your best price at a gunshow.

I hope this helps, remember what I was saying about that book, please get it, it will help you make the best decision and save you money.


"Boston's Gun Bible"

by Boston T. Party

http://www.amazon.com/Bostons-Gun-B...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202093166&sr=1-1




Respectfully and Sincerely,

Brett

 

[Conservative Christian]

Shotguns are the BEST for defending your home while you are IN YOUR home....The shot-gun 20 rds, buck-shot.

I wouldn't recommend buckshot if you have children or you live in an apartment building.

Buckshot will easily penetrate walls in the average home or apartment. Thus you might accidentally shoot one of your kids in their bedroom, or one of your neighbors in an adjoining apartment.

In a home defense situation, I'd recommend a 12-gauge loaded with standard 2-3/4-inch #4 birdshot. At the short ranges involved in these types of situations, that's more than enough stopping power for even the biggest and most deranged assailants.

I'd also recommend that the shotgun be specifically designed for defense, with the barrel length right at the 18-inch legal limit. Hunting shotguns have longer barrels that are harder to maneuver in tight spaces, and are easier for perpetrators to grab.

I'd also have a good semi-auto handgun close by for backup, in no less than 9mm caliber.

If you're going to be outside or traveling in your vehicle, I would recommend a standard 2-3/4-inch #4 BUCKSHOT load in your 12-gauge. Don't forget your handgun backup!

 

[pcosmar]

I have read some articles By Boston T. Party, though not that one. I have heard it recommended before.
This sub forum does need Education. There are a lot of Non shooters and new gun owners, and a lot of misinformation.

Speaking of misinformation. This is very BAD advice.

I wouldn't recommend buckshot if you have children or you live in an apartment building.

Buckshot will easily penetrate walls in the average home or apartment. Thus you might accidentally shoot one of your kids in their bedroom, or one of your neighbors in an adjoining apartment.

In a home defense situation, I'd recommend a 12-gauge loaded with standard 2-3/4-inch #4 birdshot. At the short ranges involved in these types of situations, that's more than enough stopping power for even the biggest and most deranged assailants.

Anything that will penetrate a Bad Guy will penetrate a wall. Use the most effective means of stopping an intruder.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Speaking of misinformation. This is very BAD advice. Anything that will penetrate a Bad Guy will penetrate a wall. Use the most effective means of stopping an intruder.

You're the only one peddling misinformation and bad advice, and your statement that anything that will penetrate a bad guy will penetrate a wall is blatantly false.

"Although birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot, even at close range, it may make sense for home or apartment defense where the opportunity exists to injure or kill innocent people behind thin walls in adjacent rooms....At close range, birdshot can destroy a great deal of tissue, producing a gruesome wound."

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

 

[Conservative Christian]

From Guns & Ammo magazine:

"At "inside the house" ranges, 10 to 12 yards is a long shot, and shot size isn't critical. Even No. 8 birdshot will pattern into a six- to eight-inch circle at these distances. And it'll do plenty of damage, too."

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/def_090105/

 

[pcosmar]

You're the only one peddling misinformation and bad advice, and your statement that anything that will penetrate a bad guy will penetrate a wall is blatantly false.

"Although birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot, even at close range, it may make sense for home or apartment defense where the opportunity exists to injure or kill innocent people behind thin walls in adjacent rooms....At close range, birdshot can destroy a great deal of tissue, producing a gruesome wound."

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

Try to find a real source. that appears to be a gamers site.
I have had real world experience including being shot.
I know people that use bird shot to train dogs, peppering a dogs butt will give negative reinforcement without killing the dog. I don't recommend this kind of training, but I have seen it used.
Bird shot is widely discouraged as a self defense load. NOBODY of any credibility will recommend Bird shot as a good for anything but birds and small game.
Bird shot is for birds. Period.
At 10 yards it would be no worse than road rash, and would not penetrate my leather jacket.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Try to find a real source. that appears to be a gamers site.
I have had real world experience including being shot.
I know people that use bird shot to train dogs, peppering a dogs butt will give negative reinforcement without killing the dog. I don't recommend this kind of training, but I have seen it used.
Bird shot is widely discouraged as a self defense load. NOBODY of any credibility will recommend Bird shot as a good for anything but birds and small game.
Bird shot is for birds. Period.
At 10 yards it would be no worse than road rash, and would not penetrate my leather jacket.

The internationally respected Guns & Ammo magazine isn't a "real source"?!

From Guns & Ammo magazine:

"At "inside the house" ranges, 10 to 12 yards is a long shot, and shot size isn't critical. Even No. 8 birdshot will pattern into a six- to eight-inch circle at these distances. And it'll do plenty of damage, too."

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/def_090105/

 

[Conservative Christian]

"Birdshot is your typical field load. The load packages a multitude of very small pellets into one shell. At close contact distances (<20 feet) birdshot will behave exactly like buckshot or slugs, as the birdshot will still be locked into the shot cup -- try patterning birdshot at twenty feet and you'll get one large ragged hole. For this reason, some apartment dwellers like to use birdshot as their defense load -- at close distances (such as those found within apartments) it still packs the punch of buckshot or slugs, but it doesn't have as much overpenetration power once the shot string moves a decent distance from the muzzle....In my opinion, buckshot and slugs can be horribly overpenetrative, depending on the distance from the muzzle. Obviously, slugs are the worst and birdshot is the best when it comes to losing energy over distance. Remember that buck and birdshot will lose energy faster over distance due to their poor aerodynamics, when compared to slugs.

Choose your defense load based on your surroundings and the structure of your home. If you live out in the boondocks where it's ten miles between you and your nearest neighbor, slugs and buckshot will do just fine. If you live in a crowded apartment building, birdshot may be more to your liking. But remember, be aware of what's beyond your target, even if it is ten miles to your neighbor's house -- it might be your spouse or child beyond the next wall."

http://members.tripod.com/~jth8260/shotgun.html

 

[pcosmar]

More on the subject.
http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/25/...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/

Conclusion:

Bird shot is for birds, not people people!

Even the #4 heavy bird shot load at 3 yards did not penetrate sufficiently to reliably stop an attacker, remember the FBI defines minimum acceptable penetration as 12 inches with 18 inches preferred.

Bird shot should never be used for a home defense load, all bird shot loads lack both the momentum and penetration required to reliably stop a human attacker. This really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone because bird shot is designed for lightweight game, if the pellets were capable of stopping a human it would devastate the small animal and not leave much to eat.

While the intentions of people who recommend bird shot are usually good they usually lack a fundamental understanding of terminal ballistics and unintentionally give horrible advice. They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.

At the end of the day you must realize that anything that will penetrate a human enough to force them to stop an attack is going to also penetrate walls. The best way to avoid this is to prevent the situation where you must shoot, and practice enough to reliably hit the bad guy in a defensive situation.

Fortunately there is a version of bird shot scaled up to a size that is effective on people, it is called buckshot!

The effects of birdshot.

And More.
* Range: 3 yards
* Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
* Round: 12 gauge 2� Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
* Gelatin: 9'x9'x19' 10% ordinance gelatin block
* Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
* Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)
* Calibration BB Velocity: 624 fps
* Calibration BB Penetration: 12.3 cm

Small sized birdshot such as this #4 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.

Except at extreme close range it is not an effective load.

 

[Conservative Christian]

"This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow....

...Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.

The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead).

The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

 

[pcosmar]

"This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow....

...Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.

The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead).

The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Did you read that whole piece?

Shotguns

Use buckshot. Slugs and birdshot are useful in some limited and uncommon situations.

 

[OddballAZ]

Bostons Gun Bible is an absolutely GREAT book. I also highly recommend it! If I could only have one book (other than the real Bible) I'd pick this one.

I'm in the middle of reading one of Boston T Party's other books, "Molon Labe". So far it's a very good book. But it's a story and not an information book. I think all Ron Paul supporters would enjoy this book, not just gun owners.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Did you read that whole piece?

Sure did. His reference to using buckshot was for GENERAL defensive purposes.

However, home defense where you're in an apartment or your own children are in an adjoining room, is one of the "limited" situations where he says birdshot makes "a lot of sense".

If you were able to read better, you would realize that he clearly stated that he uses BIRDSHOT for HIS OWN home defense shotgun!

That's powerful enough testimony for me right there. You also apparently didn't comprehend his statement that birdshot is just as effective as buckshot at home defense ranges.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Except at extreme close range it is not an effective load.

It's effective at ANY range within your home.

Your source's statement that it's not a good round for tactical deployment is utterly irrelevant.

Tactical deployment means police, SWAT and military use.

We're talking home defense here, where your wife and children may be in the next room or standing in the line of fire behind the assailant.

So your apples and oranges comparison doesn't hold any water.

And while we're at it, why don't you give us your source's credentials as a firearms expert. I'm skeptical of anybody named "Shado Walker". That name might sound cool to a ten year old, but he sounds like just another self-proclaimed "internet expert" to me.

 

[Conservative Christian]

The effects of birdshot.

Your photo would only convince somebody who is completely ignorant of the Cheney hunting accident.

Cheney was using a 28-gauge shotgun, and the victim was about NINETY FEET away.

A 12-gauge shotgun loaded with #4 birdshot at a typical home defense range of 15 to 20 feet, would be devastating.

If Cheney had gotten a solid upper torso hit on him with a 12-gauge with #4 birdshot at 20 feet, the guy would've been in critical condition or the morgue.

 

[pcosmar]

OK use what ever you want.
A .22 can kill but that does not make it a good self defense choice.
I guess 40 some years of experience and Infantry Qualifications with every weapon available to the Infantry in the 70s just don't count.
I don't worry about walls. I don't shoot walls.

Use enough gun.

 

[CountryboyRonPaul]

General Redneck rule of thumb:

If it'll kill a deer, it'll kill a person.

If I were in a home defense situation, I would much rather be using any buckshot than #4 birdshot.

 

[madengr]

You need to pattern your buckshot with your shotgun before relying on it. For example the Winchester 00 I have handy is about 1"/yard spread in my 870 Marine Magnum. So I know down the length of my hallway I can contain all the shot to the perps center of mass, or take his face off should he have my kid at chest level. The Winchester 00 is actually the backup ammo. I keep Hornaday TAP loaded. This stuff is amazing, more like 0.1"/yard spread.

I like "Boston on Guns and Courage". Great cover:

 

[Jim_Karr]

Small sized birdshot such as this #4 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.

I don't know any hunter who hunts doves with no.4 shot. Turkey yes. Other game birds,not hardly. The best way is to get out there and try different loads. I for one knows that any shotgun fired within 12 feet will do major damage to its target no matter what size shot is used or if it 2 3/4 up to 3 1/2 magnum loads. It is going to punch thru walls completly. Old double plank houses maybe not the 2 3/4 inch but the 3 and 4 inch magnums will even go thru these walls. Walls are constructed of dry wall and you can punch thru it with your fist. No matter what shot you use, You are going to shoot thru that wall .
No ifs or buts about it.

 

[Conservative Christian]

OK use what ever you want.
A .22 can kill but that does not make it a good self defense choice.
I guess 40 some years of experience and Infantry Qualifications with every weapon available to the Infantry in the 70s just don't count.
I don't worry about walls. I don't shoot walls. Use enough gun.

If you don't know the power difference between a 12-gauge shotgun and a .22, there's not much I can say that'll change your mind.

I never advocated using a .22. In fact in another thread in this very forum, I advised NOT to use one, except as a temporary "learner's" gun for women and newbies who are intimidated by larger guns.

I don't shoot walls either, but in a confined space buckshot will go through the walls of the typical house or apartment like a hot knife through butter. I wouldn't want to end up with a dead child or neighbor, simply because I was too stupid to realize that buckshot has too much penetration for certain home defense situations.

If you live alone in a single family home, buckshot is fine and dandy. I'm not saying not to use it at all, I simply said you shouldn't use it under the conditions I've already described.

Another advantage to birdshot in a home defense situation is the significantly lower recoil. You'll get off a noticeably quicker second shot with birdshot than you will with a heavy recoil buckshot load.

Being able to get a second shot off quicker is very important if you happen to miss with your first shot, or there are multiple assailants. With birdshot, you can fire faster and with more control, which is crucial in a self-defense situation.