This sub-forum needs education

[Conservative Christian]

Buy your rifle first, then buy a pistol for home or to fight your way back to your rifle.

I would strongly advise everybody to buy a handgun first, especially if they live in the city and/or are on a tight budget.

You can keep it in your home, vehicle or on your person virtually at all times, if necessary. That way you'll have ready protection immediately, where ever you go.

Get a concealed carry permit if they're available in your state. The typical course usually lasts only a few hours, and will set you back maybe 100-150 bucks. It's worth every cent to be able to carry your handgun legally in most places.

If you buy a rifle first, it'll be pretty much worthless except in your home. You can't carry it with you most places. It's not concealable on your person. Nor is it concealable in most motor vehicles, except in the trunk. However, it's not going to do much good if you need to get to it in a hurry, and it's locked in a trunk.

You won't be able to carry a rifle around with you in the city. Just try walking into a store or gas station toting an SKS. You'll be in the slam before you can say "I should've bought a handgun first."

 

[Cowlesy]

On .22's...I just have to say I killed my first 3 deer as a youngster with a .22 Hornet (yeah not exactly a .22) between probably 60 and 80 yards.

A .22 can and is lethal.

Learning how to shoot SAFELY and accurately is the first item. Then learning how to shoot in distressed situations will keep you extra safe.

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

I can also recommend Boston's book.

 

[the_british_are_coming]

I wouldn't recommend buckshot if you have children or you live in an apartment building.

Buckshot will easily penetrate walls in the average home or apartment. Thus you might accidentally shoot one of your kids in their bedroom, or one of your neighbors in an adjoining apartment.

In a home defense situation, I'd recommend a 12-gauge loaded with standard 2-3/4-inch #4 birdshot.

check out: www.theboxotruth.com

you will find that "penetration" is a much more interesting study than people would have you think.



I'm really not busting on you C_C, you just post salient points i choose to address.

 

[Tugboat1988]

I encourage everyone to read Boston's books. Why not, you might pick up some good information while entertaining yourself. To tell the truth, I haven't read any of them because, as far as I know, he never gave my shooting buddy credit for bringing the knowledge of "Molon labe" to the shooting public. Brian "Beach Boys" Wilson did when he hosted talk radio. Here is one of George's articles:
http://www.brianwilson.net/pages/molon.html

 

[Tugboat1988]

Drats: The email address at the bottom of George's article is an old one and no longer in use.

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

Hear hear!
That is a very good book.

 

[Hawk45]

First off folks are mistakenly identifying #4 'BUCKSHOT' with Number 4 birdshot. These are two completely different animals. The birdshot is good for turkeys and the like and inside the average home with the distance limited to about 20 feet. At 20 feet or less it hits almost like a slug as it has not had time or the distance to open up yet.

As to the BUCKSHOT I will take the 27 pellets of #4 Buckshot over the 9-12 pellets of 00 Buckshot every time. #4 buckshot will penatrate every much as the 00 will.

As to how I know this I carried it in COMBAT, but I didn't like it as much as my rifle. Too heavy to carry over the extra rounds the rifle carried for the same weight.


As to what to buy, it is a matter of what they are going to ban first. First would be the 'assault rifles' and followed closely by the high cap pistols. Buy these FIRST with the magazines they will need as they will be banned with the guns first. Minimum recommendation is 10 high capacity magazines per rifle and at least 5 per pistol. If I was serious though I would DOUBLE this amount as they are already going up in price NOW as most older gun owners are already seeing the writing on the wall. I am already seeing magazines that were going for $10 each just 3 months ago already going for $25 each NOW.

People always ask me what 'precious metals' I am investing in. They get really strange looks on their faces when I say steel and aluminum. I am buying ALL the magazines I can afford right now! Last time I did this I made OVER 1000% profit from my iniatial investment. Lets see silver coins or gold bullion do that and still be able to defend me or feed me in the mean time.

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

Even I get lost on the types of shotgun ammo.

 

[american.swan]

Instead of arguing over whether it will go through dry wall or not. Which makes me laugh.

Why not argue over whether it will go through the vest of the ATF agent in SWAT gear about to shoot you for thumbing the constitution to everyone you know?

Guess you could always try and get Mythbusters to prove your point.

 

[the_british_are_coming]

american.swan, i again refer you to www.theboxotruth.com, specifically: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

 

[AisA1787]

Instead of arguing over whether it will go through dry wall or not. Which makes me laugh.

Why not argue over whether it will go through the vest of the ATF agent in SWAT gear about to shoot you for thumbing the constitution to everyone you know?

Guess you could always try and get Mythbusters to prove your point.

Have you really only read six and a half books? That's sad. But it explains a lot. You're right though -- an ATF agent showed up at my door yesterday and said "I'm about to shoot you for thumbing the constitution to everyone you know." And then I woke up.

Seriously though, why not argue over the fact that you haven't presented anything resembling a point? And why in the world is an ATF agent wearing SWAT gear? If you're in the ATF, you're not in SWAT. And if you're in SWAT, you're not in the ATF.

edit: The ATF has SWAT units. I apologize to swan and pcosmar. my bad.

 

[pcosmar]

Seriously though, why not argue over the fact that you haven't presented anything resembling a point? And why in the world is an ATF agent wearing SWAT gear? If you're in the ATF, you're not in SWAT. And if you're in SWAT, you're not in the ATF.

You are truly ignorant.
The ATF generally uses local resources,but not always.
SWAT stands for "Special Weapons And Tactics".
You should really educate yourself before dumping on someone.

 

[pcosmar]

Have you really only read six and a half books? That's sad. But it explains a lot. You're right though -- an ATF agent showed up at my door yesterday and said "I'm about to shoot you for thumbing the constitution to everyone you know." And then I woke up.

Seriously though, why not argue over the fact that you haven't presented anything resembling a point? And why in the world is an ATF agent wearing SWAT gear? If you're in the ATF, you're not in SWAT. And if you're in SWAT, you're not in the ATF.

This forum really does need education.
Are you really that uninformed?
Here is some help.
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/you-are-the-homegrown-terrorist-threat/
http://web.archive.org/web/20060110071648/www.homelandsecurity.alabama.gov/tap/anti-gov_grps.html

Anti-government groups usually believe:

*

Gun Control = Enslavement
*

Constitution has been subverted
*

The U.S. has lost its sovereignty

Do you really believe these Masked Gunmen are your friends?

Police acting as thugs in Canada at the SPP. Caught and exposed.

You might also check out the Rise of Botched Raids.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

[AisA1787]

cool off pcosmar, I'm not on "their" (ATF, police, et al.) side. I'm on your side. Nobody wants repeats of Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Elian Gonzalez case, or the numerous other less well-known offenses by law enforcement agencies. I simply get tired of arguments that loosely bandy around acronyms in an attempt to make an emotional argument. Not to mention arguments that rely heavily on disturbing images, such as yours. These types of arguments do not educate people -- they only alienate them. If that's what you want, keep doing it.

p.s. that's a good homegrown terrorist article. thanks.

 

[Cowlesy]

check out: www.theboxotruth.com

you will find that "penetration" is a much more interesting study than people would have you think.

Very cool site -- thanks for the post!

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

The police are so federalized now that there is little difference between ATF and SWAT. They all go to the same schools and get almost the same equipment. They all enforce the same laws too - though local police were previously not so big on federal laws.

Of course most local cops will not ask an illegal about his immigration status (federal law) but if he thinks the barrel on your shotgun is too short (federal law) you will likely go down.

As for penetration of body armor, this is a sticky subject and everybody who knows ballistics knows what the limitations are. I would not recommend people openly discuss that topic because it can be used against you and they can attach any level of "intent" to a post that they want.

That being written however, it everyone possessed arms that denied a total garuntee in armor protection (even some pistols do that - look up .38 Super), the Leviathan state would be very nervous about the whole thing and print yet more money to make sure their minions got better armor. Considering that no regime that prints money ever lasted long, the subject of defeating state armor is one avenue of beating them without having to fire a shot, even if that is one heck of a shot. The more capable the peasants are, the more the state will have to spend on equipment, training, and insurance. The state can be bled to death through it's own monetary policy by using it's own fear against it. That is, if every intended tax slave was well equiped and trained, the state would print more money to get more equipment and training for its minions. Keep in mind that the state's minions are trained like attack dogs. And ask a dog trainer and you will be told that they never let a dog lose in training. To do so makes for an ineffective attack dog. For the state to continue on the current course towards total tyranny, they need their "dogs" to be able to carry out their order without fear of getting killed. If they did fear, then it's not likely they will want to carry out the dirty deeds of the state. All the world knows force and when the chances of death are raised for a state operator, then it's likely that the elites and politicians will be told "You want to take their guns/property/relocate them? Then do it yourself!"

 

[Doktor_Jeep]

By the way...

This thread was about "education". Notably there are two kinds of education in this realm.

There is a difference between the two.

Never confuse knowing all about the politics and social aspects of the subject and knowing about actual handling of the steel. I know gun right advocates who can site gun laws and every case, deal a conversational smack down to any detractors on the subject, and know everything there is to know about guns...

and they couldn't shoot their own foot even if you taped the rifle to their leg.

The other education is all about shooting and how to to it, requiring a knowledge in ballistics and limitations. In the end it matters not how much you know about everything, but instead whether you can hit that target at 600 meters. I know people who know very little about things and will not waste their time on such matters but will hit anything they aim at.

 

[Cowlesy]

By the way...

This thread was about "education". Notably there are two kinds of education in this realm.

There is a difference between the two.

Never confuse knowing all about the politics and social aspects of the subject and knowing about actual handling of the steel. I know gun right advocates who can site gun laws and every case, deal a conversational smack down to any detractors on the subject, and know everything there is to know about guns...

and they couldn't shoot their own foot even if you taped the rifle to their leg.

The other education is all about shooting and how to to it, requiring a knowledge in ballistics and limitations. In the end it matters not how much you know about everything, but instead whether you can hit that target at 600 meters. I know people who know very little about things and will not waste their time on such matters but will hit anything they aim at.

I totally agree -- thanks for the post!

 

[pcosmar]

Educational

cool off pcosmar, I'm not on "their" (ATF, police, et al.) side. I'm on your side. Nobody wants repeats of Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Elian Gonzalez case, or the numerous other less well-known offenses by law enforcement agencies. I simply get tired of arguments that loosely bandy around acronyms in an attempt to make an emotional argument. Not to mention arguments that rely heavily on disturbing images, such as yours. These types of arguments do not educate people -- they only alienate them. If that's what you want, keep doing it.

p.s. that's a good homegrown terrorist article. thanks.

My post was meant to be educational.
Some folks need to be shaken from their slumber. No one was "loosely bandying" anything. Someone made a comment about ATF SWAT units. Then a comment that contained misinformation followed.

And why in the world is an ATF agent wearing SWAT gear? If you're in the ATF, you're not in SWAT. And if you're in SWAT, you're not in the ATF.

There are, in fact, SWAT units in every law enforcement arm, from Federal down to small podunk towns.
The pictures (disturbing?) were to prove that point. They show ATF Agents in SWAT Gear.
They are hardly the most disturbing pictures I could find, in fact they are quite common. There are many more disturbing photos available.
In fact the one photo of the Cop in the bandanna, is both educational and disturbing.

For those that are gathering to protest or to Rally in Washington. This was a Agent provocateur. There were a few at the SPP protest in Canada. They were trying to provoke violence at a peaceful protest, but they were caught and photographed.
It is a tactic to be aware of.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95c_1188228555