these responses in regards to "ron paul calls obama a fraud." what should i say?

I am so glad someone broke up this Obama love fest, it was sickening to those who know the truth about him and the rest of the front runners. They are all giant turds on a stick being sold to us as if they was made of gold instead of the actual fecal mater that they are composed of.

People seam to believe any bull crap they hear on TV now days. Those people are just plain brain washed to be stupid.

Those who understand what is going on in this nation know that it does not matter what front runner is elected since we would be equally screwed either way.
 
There are many supporters of Obama who are also Ron Paul supporters. I bet they are going to be piss off with that remark. LOL. It is time these people realise, you can only be pledge your allegience to one candidate. The basic commandment of a Ron Paul cult:
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."

Crucify these unfaithful traitors. Denounce them. Our movement will not tolerate such fickle minded people. Ron Paul! Hail to our president Ron Paul!!!

abe? Is that you on one of your many names here?
 
Okay...

False.


I like the wording there - "fund the troops". It's a war-spending bill. You're funding a war. If the war isn't funded, the troops come home.


They have to be equipped if they're staying, and if they're staying, they aren't being brought home. And if they're staying, they're fighting a war, which Obama is against?


The war isn't his fault, but he is voting to fund the war, while claiming to be against it, which is fraudulent and misleading.


Obama has said many times that he will "end the war in Iraq." Leaving 100,000 troops there doesn't sound like ending. And he says "begin drawing down troop levels" - without ever telling people where he will stop drawing down.


A thinly-veiled personal attack. Lovely.


When would Obama bring troops home from Afghanistan? How would he judge when all al Qaeda members are gone?


Why would we bomb villages if the al Qaeda are hiding in caves?

According to the Lancet Study, almost one million Iraqi civillians have been killed. It doesn't seem as though Obama is critical of that if he consistently votes to fund the war.


The CNN reporter (I forget his name, but I think it's John, or something) asked him something like: "If your supporters can't vote for you in the fall, should they vote for the Democratic candidate instead, for their anti-war stances?" And Ron correctly informed him and people at home watching CNN that Obama wasn't as anti-war as he has made himself out to be.


Hillary voted to fund the war as well. Is Obama better because he wasn't in the Senate in 2002? There are more than two political parties.


Mmhmm...


I don't appreciate the vague way you phrased this. They're powerful because the government gives them power. Ever wonder where the hundreds of billions of dollars in war spending bills go? Large corporations!


Hey now. "Eliminate the federal government"? You make Ron Paul seem like an anarchist. He's a Republican. The Republican Party used to stand for getting rid of the Department of Education. We don't need it. It's a good idea. Department of Energy? Don't need it. Subsidies for oil companies? That's feeding companies instead of letting the free market work its magic. "more of what we see". Guess who owns NBC and a couple billion dollars in defense contracts? GE. Them and four other corporations own what you see on television. And we haven't exactly had a Libertarian-leaning government for the past... hundred years. Companies never control what you think. The free market decides what is available to use. If there's 85 different types of shampoo, you can pick. No one's forcing you to eat a certain thing, or at a certain location. And I don't see how Ron Paul would change that.


How would the free market keep the government in check?


Right, well then, thanks for including it. :rolleyes:


He outraised every other Republican candidate in the fourth quarter, and almost reached Democratic-candidate-fundraising levels. He got 2nd's and 3rd's (and pretty decent 4th's) in primaries and caucuses. He was a good contender, and I don't think it matters how loud the "internet fanfare" was.


You're saying following the Constitution is a radical notion. I disagree, and I also disagree that Paul following and representing the Constitution is the reason he was ignored by the mainstream media. They obviously control your opinion if you think Paul, Kucinich, and Gravel were radical (okay, Gravel did shout a bit at debates, but he never got asked any questions).


And you support it. Congratulations.


ie, the Constitution.


Having a president like them would make America respectable around the world (I'd be happy to say 'more respectable' if we had any).


Who said Obama ruined anything? And Hillary would've been steamrolled.


If you want abortion to be legal, support candidates for the state legislature who are for it. The government shouldn't (violate the Constitution) pass a law or make a ruling that makes it legal in all 50 states. 10th Amendment.

How's that? :D

Good job!

I feel for you. When I was reading your OP I almost could have written it myself. The difference being that my Democrat friends wouldn't dream of trying to argue their point with me-- they know that I have done my research about ALL of the candidates and probably know more about them than my friends do. I don't mean that in any critical way, I guess the Dems I know just aren't as informed as they like to think they are. Either that or they really are my friends and want our relationships to last through November. Just as the GOP has forsaken Ron Paul, our "friends" will forsake us, too. Unfortunately, the Republicans I know are actually a bigger challenge as they have all succumbed to the neo-con machine and have no idea what conservatism means anymore and just how important our civil liberties are. Some people just don't see through the forest for the trees and THAT is why we're in the sad state that we are in right now. Keep on fighting the good fight.

But I still don't understand the criticism of Ron Paul supporters. Everyone I have met so far seems to be very thoughtful and intelligent and much more informed than your typical American. I understand that not everyone wants to hear conspiracy "theory" or about 9-11, but the majority of RP supporters seem to be regular people that genuinely care about our country.
 
@ OP, why did you send a bulletin if you couldn't defend the subject of that bulletin?
 
This was posted by ryanmkeisling in another thread OBAMAS VP CHOICE

I think it has alot of good points on what makes obama a fraud his voting record is clearly full of holes

his is a candidate who says he’s going to usher in change; that he is a different kind of politician who has the skills to get things done. He reminds us again and again that he had the foresight to oppose the war in Iraq. And he seems to have a genuine interest in lifting up the poor.

But his record suggests that he is incapable of ushering in any kind of change I’d like to see. It is one of accommodation and concession to the very political powers that we need to rein in and oppose if we are to make truly lasting advances.

The war in Iraq:

Let’s start with his signature position against the Iraq war. Obama has sent mixed messages at best.

First, he opposed the war in Iraq while in the Illinois state legislature. Once he was running for US Senate though, when public opinion and support for the war was at its highest, he was quoted in the July 27, 2004 Chicago Tribune as saying, “There’s not that much difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who’s in a position to execute.” The Tribune went on to say that Obama, “now believes US forces must remain to stabilize the war-ravaged nation – a policy not dissimilar to the current approach of the Bush administration.” This makes me sick! Is there an explanation for this type of behavior from someone we want to lead our already problematic country into the next term?

You guys at the campaign say he was referring to the ongoing occupation and how best to stabilize the region. But why wouldn’t he have taken the opportunity to urge withdrawal if he truly opposed the war? Was he trying to signal to conservative voters that he would subjugate his anti-war position if elected to the US Senate and perhaps support a lengthy occupation? Well as it turns out, he’s done just that.

Since taking office in January 2005 he has voted to approve every war appropriation the Republicans have put forward, totaling over $300 billion. He also voted to confirm Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State despite her complicity in the Bush Administration’s various false justifications for going to war in Iraq. Why would he vote to make one of the architects of “Operation Iraqi Liberation” the head of US foreign policy? Curiously, he lacked the courage of 13 of his colleagues who voted against her confirmation.

And though he often cites his background as a civil rights lawyer, Obama voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act in July 2005, easily the worse attack on civil liberties in the last half-century. It allows for wholesale eavesdropping on American citizens under the guise of anti-terrorism efforts among other things. This was a huge mistake and a very contradictory stance. Where is this mans sense of principle? Liberty? I do not see change.

And in March 2006, Obama went out of his way to travel to Connecticut to campaign for Senator Joseph Lieberman who faced a tough challenge by anti-war candidate Ned Lamont. At a Democratic Party dinner attended by Lamont, Obama called Lieberman “his mentor” and urged those in attendance to vote and give financial contributions to him. This is the same Lieberman who Alexander Cockburn called “Bush’s closest Democratic ally on the Iraq War.” Why would Obama have done that if he was truly against the war?

Recently, with anti-war sentiment on the rise, Obama declared he will get our combat troops out of Iraq in 2009. But Obama isn’t actually saying he wants to get all of our troops out of Iraq. At a September 2007 debate before the New Hampshire primary, moderated by Tim Russert, Obama refused to commit to getting our troops out of Iraq by January 2013 and, on the campaign trail, he has repeatedly stated his desire to add 100,000 combat troops to the military. Again where is this change we keep hearing about?

At the same event, Obama committed to keeping enough soldiers in Iraq to “carry out our counter-terrorism activities there” which includes “striking at al Qaeda in Iraq.” What he didn’t say is this continued warfare will require an estimated 60,000 troops to remain in Iraq according to a May 2006 report prepared by the Center for American Progress. Moreover, it appears he intends to “redeploy” the troops he takes out of the unpopular war in Iraq and send them to Afghanistan. So it appears that under Obama’s plan the US will remain heavily engaged in war.

This is hardly a position to get excited about. I'd like to see these contradictions addressed in some manner and I'd like to also see some of this elusive change..

Class action reform:

In 2005, Obama joined Republicans in passing a law dubiously called the Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA) that would shut down state courts as a venue to hear many class action lawsuits. Long a desired objective of large corporations and President George Bush, Obama in effect voted to deny redress in many of the courts where these kinds of cases have the best chance of surviving corporate legal challenges. Instead, it forces them into the backlogged Republican-judge dominated federal courts.

By contrast, Senators Clinton, Edwards and Kerry joined 23 others to vote against CAFA, noting the “reform” was a thinly-veiled “special interest extravaganza” that favored banking, creditors and other corporate interests. David Sirota, the former spokesman for Democrats on the House Appropriations Committee, commented on CAFA in the June 26, 2006 issue of The Nation, “Opposed by most major civil rights and consumer watchdog groups, this Big Business-backed legislation was sold to the public as a way to stop "frivolous" lawsuits. But everyone in Washington knew the bill's real objective was to protect corporate abusers.”

Nation contributor Dan Zegart noted further: “On its face, the class-action bill is mere procedural tinkering, transferring from state to federal court actions involving more than $5 million where any plaintiff is from a different state from the defendant company. But federal courts are much more hostile to class actions than their state counterparts; such cases tend to be rooted in the finer points of state law, in which federal judges are reluctant to dabble. And even if federal judges do take on these suits, with only 678 of them on the bench (compared with 9,200 state judges), already overburdened dockets will grow. Thus, the bill will make class actions – most of which involve discrimination, consumer fraud and wage-and-hour violations – all but impossible. One example: After forty lawsuits were filed against Wal-Mart for allegedly forcing employees to work "off the clock," four state courts certified these suits as class actions. Not a single federal court did so, although the practice probably involves hundreds of thousands of employees nationwide.”

Why would a civil rights lawyer knowingly make it harder for working-class people to have their day in court, in effect shutting off avenues of redress? Please explain?

Credit card interest rates:

Obama has a way of ducking hard votes or explaining away his bad votes by trying to blame poorly-written statutes. Case in point: an amendment he voted on as part of a recent bankruptcy bill before the US Senate would have capped credit card interest rates at 30 percent. Inexplicably, Obama voted against it, although it would have been the beginning of setting these predatory lending rates under federal control. Even Senator Hillary Clinton supported it.

Now Obama explains his vote by saying the amendment was poorly written or set the ceiling too high. His explanation isn’t credible as Obama offered no lower number as an alternative, and didn’t put forward his own amendment clarifying whatever language he found objectionable.

Why wouldn’t Obama have voted to create the first federal ceiling on predatory credit card interest rates, particularly as he calls himself a champion of the poor and middle classes? Perhaps he was signaling to the corporate establishment that they need not fear him. For all of his dynamic rhetoric about lifting up the masses, it seems Obama has little intention of doing anything concrete to reverse the cycle of poverty many struggle to overcome.

Limiting non-economic damages:

These seemingly unusual votes wherein Obama aligns himself with Republican Party interests aren’t new. While in the Illinois Senate, Obama voted to limit the recovery that victims of medical malpractice could obtain through the courts. Capping non-economic damages in medical malpractice cases means a victim cannot fully recover for pain and suffering or for punitive damages. Moreover, it ignored that courts were already empowered to adjust awards when appropriate, and that the Illinois Supreme Court had previously ruled such limits on tort reform violated the state constitution.

In the US Senate, Obama continued interfering with patients’ full recovery for tortious conduct. He was a sponsor of the National Medical Error Disclosure and Compensation Act of 2005. The bill requires hospitals to disclose errors to patients and has a mechanism whereby disclosure, coupled with apologies, is rewarded by limiting patients’ economic recovery. Rather than simply mandating disclosure, Obama’s solution is to trade what should be mandated for something that should never be given away: namely, full recovery for the injured patient. WTF?

Mining law of 1872:

In November 2007, Obama came out against a bill that would have reformed the notorious Mining Law of 1872. The current statute, signed into law by Ulysses Grant, allows mining companies to pay a nominal fee, as little as $2.50 an acre, to mine for hardrock minerals like gold, silver, and copper without paying royalties. Yearly profits for mining hardrock on public lands is estimated to be in excess of $1 billion a year according to Earthworks, a group that monitors the industry. Not surprisingly, the industry spends freely when it comes to lobbying: an estimated $60 million between 1998-2004 according to The Center on Public Integrity. And it appears to be paying off, yet again.

The Hardrock Mining and Reclamation Act of 2007 would have finally overhauled the law and allowed American taxpayers to reap part of the royalties (4 percent of gross revenue on existing mining operations and 8 percent on new ones). The bill provided a revenue source to cleanup abandoned hardrock mines, which is likely to cost taxpayers over $50 million, and addressed health and safety concerns in the 11 affected western states.

Later it came to light that one of Obama’s key advisors in Nevada is a Nevada-based lobbyist in the employ of various mining companies (CBS News “Obama’s Position On Mining Law Questioned. Democrat Shares Position with Mining Executives Who Employ Lobbyist Advising Him,” November 14, 2007).

Regulation of the nuclear industry:

The New York Times reported that, while campaigning in Iowa in December 2007, Obama boasted that he had passed a bill requiring nuclear plants to promptly report radioactive leaks. This came after residents of his home state of Illinois complained they were not told of leaks that occurred at a nuclear plant operated by Exelon Corporation.

The truth, however, was that Obama allowed the bill to be amended in Committee by Senate Republicans, replacing language mandating reporting with verbiage that merely offered guidance to regulators on how to address unreported leaks. The story noted that even this version of Obama’s bill failed to pass the Senate, so it was unclear why Obama was claiming to have passed the legislation. The February 3, 2008 The New York Times article titled “Nuclear Leaks and Response Tested Obama in Senate” by Mike McIntire also noted the opinion of one of Obama’s constituents, which was hardly enthusiastic about Obama’s legislative efforts:

"Senator Obama's staff was sending us copies of the bill to review, and we could see it weakening with each successive draft," said Joe Cosgrove, a park district director in Will County, Ill., where low-level radioactive runoff had turned up in groundwater. "The teeth were just taken out of it."

As it turns out, the New York Times story noted: “Since 2003, executives and employees of Exelon, which is based in Illinois, have contributed at least $227,000 to Mr. Obama’s campaigns for the United States Senate and for president. Two top Exelon officials, Frank M. Clark, executive vice president, and John W. Rogers Jr., a director, are among his largest fund-raisers.” Again here we see the whiff of corruption. WTF? Please explain. Demonstrate change.

Energy policy:

On energy policy, it turns out Obama is a big supporter of corn-based ethanol which is well known for being an energy-intensive crop to grow. It is estimated that seven barrels of oil are required to produce eight barrels of corn ethanol, according to research by the Cato Institute. Ethanol’s impact on climate change is nominal and isn’t “green” according to Alisa Gravitz, Co-op America executive director. “It simply isn’t a major improvement over gasoline when it comes to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions.” A 2006 University of Minnesota study by Jason Hill and David Tilman, and an earlier study published in BioScience in 2005, concur. (There’s even concern that a reliance on corn-based ethanol would lead to higher food prices.)

So why would Obama be touting this as a solution to our oil dependency? Could it have something to do with the fact that the first presidential primary is located in Iowa, corn capitol of the country? In legislative terms this means Obama voted in favor of $8 billion worth of corn subsidies in 2006 alone, when most of that money should have been committed to alternative energy sources such as solar, tidal and wind.

Single payer health care:

Obama opposed single-payer bill HR676, sponsored by Congressmen Dennis Kucinich and John Conyers in 2006, although at least 75 members of Congress supported it. Single-payer works by trying to diminish the administrative costs that comprise somewhere around one-third of every health care dollar spent, by eliminating the duplicative nature of these services. The expected $300 billion in annual savings such a system would produce would go directly to cover the uninsured and expand coverage to those who already have insurance, according to Dr. Stephanie Woolhandler, an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program. Not the solution I would want to see but far better than what the senator came up with.

Obama’s own plan has been widely criticized for leaving health care industry administrative costs in place and for allowing millions of people to remain uninsured. “Sicko” filmmaker Michael Moore ridiculed it saying, “Obama wants the insurance companies to help us develop a new health care plan-the same companies who have created the mess in the first place.” This is a major concern for me as government health care free or not will cost taxpayers a lot of money and will surely be mismanaged like every other federal department or program. Please name one that does a good job at anything? Just one?

North american free trade agreement:

Regarding the North American Free Trade Agreement, Obama recently boasted, “I don’t think NAFTA has been good for Americans, and I never have.” Yet, Calvin Woodward reviewed Obama’s record on NAFTA in a February 26, 2008 Associated Press article and found that comment to be misleading: “In his 2004 Senate campaign, Obama said the US should pursue more deals such as NAFTA, and argued more broadly that his opponent's call for tariffs would spark a trade war. AP reported then that the Illinois senator had spoken of enormous benefits having accrued to his state from NAFTA, while adding that he also called for more aggressive trade protections for US workers.”

Putting aside campaign rhetoric, when actually given an opportunity to protect workers from unfair trade agreements, Obama cast the deciding vote against an amendment to a September 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill, proposed by North Dakota Senator Byron Dorgan, that would have prohibited US trade negotiators from weakening US laws that provide safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices. The bill would have been a vital tool to combat the outsourcing of jobs to foreign workers and would have ended a common corporate practice known as “pole-vaulting” over regulations, which allows companies doing foreign business to avoid “right to organize,” “minimum wage,” and other worker protections.

Some final thoughts:

On March 2, 2007 Obama gave a speech at AIPAC, America’s pro-Israeli government lobby, wherein he disavowed his previous support for the plight of the Palestinians. In what appears to be a troubling pattern, Obama told his audience what they wanted to hear. He recounted a one-sided history of the region and called for continued military support for Israel, rather than taking the opportunity to promote the various peace movements in and outside of Israel.

Why should we believe Obama has courage to bring about change? He wouldn’t have his picture taken with San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom when visiting San Francisco for a fundraiser in his honor because Obama was scared voters might think he supports gay marriage (Newsom acknowledged this to Reuters on January 26, 2007 and former Mayor Willie Brown admitted to the San Francisco Chronicle on February 5, 2008 that Obama told him he wanted to avoid Newsom for that reason.)


On September 29, 2006, Obama joined Republicans in voting to build 700 miles of double fencing on the Mexican border (The Secure Fence Act of 2006), abandoning 19 of his colleagues who had the courage to oppose it. But now that he’s campaigning in Texas and eager to win over Mexican-American voters, he says he’d employ a different border solution.

It is shocking how frequently and consistently Obama is willing to subjugate good decision making for his personal and political benefit. Is this the man to be the next president? Is this a joke?

Obama aggressively opposed initiating impeachment proceedings against the president (“Obama: Impeachment is not acceptable,” USA Today, June 28, 2007) and he wouldn’t even support Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold’s effort to censure the Bush administration for illegally wiretapping American citizens in violation of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. In Feingold’s words “I’m amazed at Democrats … cowering with this president’s number’s so low.” Once again, it’s troubling that Obama would take these positions and miss the opportunity to document the abuses of the Bush regime. Furthermore that he would pander to the bloodthirsty Israelis. Again I am sick. And this one gets me real fired up. These people in this administration have committed various crimes against humanity and impeachment is the least of what they deserve but Mr. Change wants to let them walk away from their path of destruction without even a slap on the wrist. I don't wonder why that is...

Medical Marijuana/war on drugs:

The senator has yet to state his real position on the use of federal funds and police force to put sick and dying people in prison in states that have legalized medical marijuana. Not only that but he has clearly stated several times that he would continue the failed war on drugs putting a burden on our already overstuffed prison system and drawing on more federal funds. Since the drug wars inception drug use has only increased in this country and the fact is Americans want drugs. According to a recent study by an organization within the government, the American appetite for drugs, of all kinds, is insatiable. You will never curb the American appetite for drugs via any means and any one who is serious knows this. I will refrain from diving further in on this as we have already discussed it in person and remember you offered me nothing but things I don't want hear which are out of touch with reality in every way. I would love to hear the senator offer up some change here?

Conclusion:

Once I started looking at the votes Obama actually cast, I began to hear his rhetoric differently. The principal conclusion I draw about “change” and Barack Obama is that Obama needs to change his voting habits and stop pandering to win votes. If he does this he might someday make a decent candidate who could earn my support. For now Obama has fallen into a dangerous pattern of capitulation that he cannot reconcile with his growing popularity as an agent of change. He needs to wear one mask and not several.
 
Robert Kagan: Obama the Interventionist (April 2007)

In case you don't know, Robert Kagan is a co-founder of the neoconservative think tank PNAC and member of the CFR. He's also a McCain campaign advisor - hardly a card carrying member of the Obama fan club - but he thinks Obama is on board with the neocon vision of Pax Americana.
 
Robert Kagan: Obama the Interventionist (April 2007)

In case you don't know, Robert Kagan is a co-founder of the neoconservative think tank PNAC and member of the CFR. He's also a McCain campaign advisor - hardly a card carrying member of the Obama fan club - but he thinks Obama is on board with the neocon vision of Pax Americana.

all wasington politicians are interventionist... they all lie to you about their positions. Only McCain tell you straight in the face that he is an interventionist.
 
i made a myspace bulletin with the video and got the following responses. i want to be sure to be able to reply in the best way.

A:
I’ve got plenty of admiration for Ron Paul, but his assessment of Obama is unfair. I really don’t see how anything he has said or done constitutes ‘fraud.’ Obama was strongly opposed to GW’s decision to go to war preceding the invasion, and has maintained that position ever since. Voting to fund the troops once they’re already in Iraq doesn’t mean you’re “voting not to end the war.” Paul’s statement is misleading. If there’s no political means to withdraw American troops, then you have to ensure that they’re equipped, right? I mean, this isn’t to say that the war has been conducted well, or that the $12 billion it costs per month isn’t sickening, but it isn’t Obama’s fault at all. Also, Paul can’t accuse Obama of fraud when he’s not trying to deceive people--he has been open about his intentions of a timed withdraw from Iraq and to move some soldiers from Iraq to Afghanistan. Being a Paul supporter, you probably don’t believe that terrorists are responsible for 9/11, but most people do, and if that’s the case then targeting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan isn’t really that morally outrageous, and there’s nothing fraudulent about it seeing that Obama spouts these intentions from a podium night after night. The dearth of ground troops in Afghanistan leads to U.S. air raids on villages and the killing civilians, and Obama has always been vocal and highly critical of that. And moreover, I don’t see the political rational of attacking Obama at this point. Without him, we’d have to choose between Clinton, who initially voted for the war, or McCain, who loves the war more than Bush. Shit, this is getting lengthy. Whatever.

Ummm, obama went from "not taking nukes off the table against Pakistan" last summer (now THAT'S morally outrageous!!!!!) to totally using Ron Paul's talking points; things Ron Paul has been saying and consistently voting for FOR YEARS (not just lately to get votes):

-We are angering them and creating enemies by fighting them on their soil

-We need to talk with them and negotiate with them

-We need to hunt down the terrorists in Afghanistan (I believe RP actually introduced legislation to do such)

-Voting to fund the war is not pro-war? mmmmkay, if a sitting senator (1 of 100) can't make enough noise, introduce legislation or gather enough of a coalition to stand against the war in a democrat controlled congress, his words ring hollow to me. Show me what a man has done, not what he says he might do some time in the future.

So, yeah. obamination is a fraud.


B:
I was never a believer in the Ron Paul "revolution." I understood why he appealed to people - his anti-war stance, his integrity and his straight-talking honesty were all commendable. But I think too many of his rabid fans were so enamored by someone actually telling the truth for a change, that they latched on to his integrity without taking a serious look at his libertarian policies. I personally think laissez-faire economics are more dangerous than ever with the increasing power of multi-national corporations, and Paul's dramatic plans to eliminate the Federal government were an invitation for bigger companies to own more and more of what we see, think, use, and eat. I'm not championing government regulation, either - I think government and the free market need to keep each other in check - checks and balances just like the branches of our government. This ultimately goes back to my belief that the only way we'll EVER have an honest government with the interests of the people in mind is to eliminate campaign financing entirely - but that's a discussion for another time.

But anyway, on the internet the Ron Paul fanfare was loud enough that from an outside perspective you'd think he was a much bigger contender than he actually was. But just like Kucinich, and Mike Gravel, Paul was too radical to get any attention from the mainstream media, which sadly still controls the opinions of most of our country. It's a shame - I may not personally support Ron Paul's politics, but having people like him, Kucinich, and Gravel able to participate more in the mainstream election process would bring a lot of intelligence and some much-needed edge to our homogenized infomercial of a political system"

This pretty much sums up how I feel about dr paul. You didn't ask but everyday there is a new bulletin about ron paul with your name attached to it. I don't think anyone who supports Obama ruined it for you guys. I think there is no way in hell ron paul could have beat hillary clinton in the general election. Sorry. Would you really want the state of texas to have more control than the government? I mean really, you live in austin but the rest of the state is populated with fetus loving simpletons they out number all of us. But I did enjoy the naomi wolf book thanks for the you tube post of her.

-Someone who follows the constitution which he and all the others have sworn to uphold is radical?? Shows how far this country is off the reservation.

-Yes, Texas and every other state should have more power than the fed. The function of the federal government is to protect individual liberty, not to do things for people or control the world. We the People have much more of a voice at the state rather than the federal level.

-Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Agra, and the Corporate Media are direct result of the incestuous relationship between the federal government, the corporate lobbyists, and our wonderful elected representatives. Money talks, BS walks.
 
i made a myspace bulletin with the video and got the following responses. i want to be sure to be able to reply in the best way.

A:
I’ve got plenty of admiration for Ron Paul, but his assessment of Obama is unfair. I really don’t see how anything he has said or done constitutes ‘fraud.’ Obama was strongly opposed to GW’s decision to go to war preceding the invasion, and has maintained that position ever since. Voting to fund the troops once they’re already in Iraq doesn’t mean you’re “voting not to end the war.” Paul’s statement is misleading. If there’s no political means to withdraw American troops, then you have to ensure that they’re equipped, right? I mean, this isn’t to say that the war has been conducted well, or that the $12 billion it costs per month isn’t sickening, but it isn’t Obama’s fault at all. Also, Paul can’t accuse Obama of fraud when he’s not trying to deceive people--he has been open about his intentions of a timed withdraw from Iraq and to move some soldiers from Iraq to Afghanistan. Being a Paul supporter, you probably don’t believe that terrorists are responsible for 9/11, but most people do, and if that’s the case then targeting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan isn’t really that morally outrageous, and there’s nothing fraudulent about it seeing that Obama spouts these intentions from a podium night after night. The dearth of ground troops in Afghanistan leads to U.S. air raids on villages and the killing civilians, and Obama has always been vocal and highly critical of that. And moreover, I don’t see the political rational of attacking Obama at this point. Without him, we’d have to choose between Clinton, who initially voted for the war, or McCain, who loves the war more than Bush. Shit, this is getting lengthy. Whatever.


B:
I was never a believer in the Ron Paul "revolution." I understood why he appealed to people - his anti-war stance, his integrity and his straight-talking honesty were all commendable. But I think too many of his rabid fans were so enamored by someone actually telling the truth for a change, that they latched on to his integrity without taking a serious look at his libertarian policies. I personally think laissez-faire economics are more dangerous than ever with the increasing power of multi-national corporations, and Paul's dramatic plans to eliminate the Federal government were an invitation for bigger companies to own more and more of what we see, think, use, and eat. I'm not championing government regulation, either - I think government and the free market need to keep each other in check - checks and balances just like the branches of our government. This ultimately goes back to my belief that the only way we'll EVER have an honest government with the interests of the people in mind is to eliminate campaign financing entirely - but that's a discussion for another time.

But anyway, on the internet the Ron Paul fanfare was loud enough that from an outside perspective you'd think he was a much bigger contender than he actually was. But just like Kucinich, and Mike Gravel, Paul was too radical to get any attention from the mainstream media, which sadly still controls the opinions of most of our country. It's a shame - I may not personally support Ron Paul's politics, but having people like him, Kucinich, and Gravel able to participate more in the mainstream election process would bring a lot of intelligence and some much-needed edge to our homogenized infomercial of a political system"

This pretty much sums up how I feel about dr paul. You didn't ask but everyday there is a new bulletin about ron paul with your name attached to it. I don't think anyone who supports Obama ruined it for you guys. I think there is no way in hell ron paul could have beat hillary clinton in the general election. Sorry. Would you really want the state of texas to have more control than the government? I mean really, you live in austin but the rest of the state is populated with fetus loving simpletons they out number all of us. But I did enjoy the naomi wolf book thanks for the you tube post of her.

First, he called Obama a "fraud," only passingly. In context, there's a huge difference. It isn't like he held a press conference for the sole purpose of telling the world, "Obama is a FRAUD!" As usual, things get blown way out of proportion. And as far as I'm concerned, Obama is a fraud. He's about what, "Change?" So, tell me Obama supporters, what *precisely* has he done? What's on his political record aside from a lot of hot air? He's selling himself - as politicians always do - as some kind of outsider who wants to bring change. It's a political ploy to get himself elected. He happened to find himself at the right place, right time, but that doesn't mean he's right for the job. FACTS: He voted for war funding, he voted for the Patriot Act, he won't take a nuclear first-strike off the table (eg: he's left the door open for the U.S. to NUKE a country that has not attacked us), he won't say no to invading Iran, and he's stated many times he wants military intervention in Africa. THIS is the peace candidate? I agree with Ron Paul in calling him a fraud. He should have just called him a politician, but, .... apples and oranges I suppose.

Furthermore, your friends problem with laissez-faire capitalism couldn't be farther from the mark. The problem is much more subtle and difficult to understand than most people are willing to admit. We have not had true free market capitalism for well over 100 years. In that 100 years we've seen the dollar decline by something like 90% of it's original value. Free market capitalism is the ONLY, I repeat, ONLY system that values individual rights and individual property rights as it's highest values and absolutely bans the use of force.
The extent to which a political system does not follow those rules, is the extent to which it is not capitalism. People's understanding of capitalism today is all miscontrued. Usually what most people complain about is actually mercantilism or fascism, ie: big biz and big government collusion. Corporate power can never be that great until it buddies up with government. It does so by enlarging the size, scope and power of government, until individual rights to life, liberty and property become blurred. The bigger government gets (the more power we give it), the more power corporations will have. Again, capitalism, by definition, does not allow the use of force, but instead functions strictly on voluntary action. Government on the other hand, being a true monopoly, has a monopoly on the use of force, ie: the use of guns, the police force, the military, eg: what happens if you don't pay your taxes, you go to jail, by force. Corrupted capitalism is then cronyist businessmen utilizing political and governmental power to get what they want, instead of having to earn it in the free market. People must understand the symbiosis of this. Politicians do all sorts of bad things, and the free market always takes the blame. The crusade against free market capitalism and "corporations," is itself the fraud of the century. It's really a crusade FOR socialism, cronyism and power over people as opposed to power from the people. Which reminds me, as an aside, the popular slogan shall hereby change from "Power to the people!" To "Power from the people!" As it should be.

But to be sure, critics of capitalsim are not denouncing free market capitalism (as they think they understand it), but cronyism, which capitalism flatly rejects. Again, have your friends look up the true meaning of laissez-faire capitalism - because their understanding is deeply flawed. I recommend Ayn Rand's, "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," or Henry Hazlitt's, "Economics In One Lesson."

The rest of their fear mongering regarding states rights, is also unfounded. Furthermore, states rights are guarunteed by the constitution. Laws are being broken here. Do your friends not care? Texas is SUPPOSED to have more power than the federal government, as are ALL individual states. It's called checks and balances. Have your friends look it up. The power of the states is supposed to be a check AGAINST federal power. End of story. They disagree? They're wrong.
 
Last edited:
Voting to fund the troops once they’re already in Iraq doesn’t mean you’re “voting not to end the war.” Paul’s statement is misleading.

I don't know how supporters of Obama think but its pretty logical that if you are against something from the start why do you support it later? Saying that "we support the troops" but not the war is a misleading statement. You support the troops who are fighting the war. Its not putting blame on the troops but the administration. If you know from the start that it was an illegal war and you did not support it from the beginning then what makes your support today any more logical or legal?

If there’s no political means to withdraw American troops, then you have to ensure that they’re equipped, right?

No. Funding for the "troops" = funding the war. You cannot pick and choose morality. You have to make a decision and stick to it. Obama changed his stance on war and decided to fund the "troops" then why didn't he support the "troops" in the first place? Now this sounds like a stupid comment but you're a fraud when you tell people one thing and do the EXACT opposite. It's like saying once we start war its out moral obligation to fund the "troops"? How absurd is that?

Obama is ready to attack in Pakistan without Pakistan's wishes. How is that logical or legal? Since when USA had a right to attack another country?

Being a Paul supporter, you probably don’t believe that terrorists are responsible for 9/11,

Need I say more?

And moreover, I don’t see the political rational of attacking Obama at this point. Without him, we’d have to choose between Clinton, who initially voted for the war, or McCain, who loves the war more than Bush.

Isn't this democracy? Paul for attacked for various reasons and he accepted responsibility but I never saw Obama admitting that his vote for the PATRIOT ACT was justified and how?

B:
I personally think laissez-faire economics are more dangerous than ever with the increasing power of multi-national corporations, and Paul's dramatic plans to eliminate the Federal government were an invitation for bigger companies to own more and more of what we see, think, use, and eat.

When Ron Paul says that he likes to think that his supporters do more reading I think he is spot on. HOW IN THE WORLD YOU COMPARE less-regulation with corporatism? I mean you have to be out of your MIND to think something like that. When we eliminate federal government we give power to the CONSUMER. Consumer becomes the market rather than the corporation and when consumer controls the policies then its a truly free economy and a monopoly or corporatism becomes obsolete. I cannot believe people think that.


But anyway, on the internet the Ron Paul fanfare was loud enough that from an outside perspective you'd think he was a much bigger contender than he actually was. But just like Kucinich, and Mike Gravel, Paul was too radical to get any attention from the mainstream media, which sadly still controls the opinions of most of our country. It's a shame - I may not personally support Ron Paul's politics, but having people like him, Kucinich, and Gravel able to participate more in the mainstream election process would bring a lot of intelligence and some much-needed edge to our homogenized infomercial of a political system"

I think there is no way in hell ron paul could have beat hillary clinton in the general election. Sorry.

I think that's the biggest problem in America that with having the most trustworthy and intelligent politicians in the world they still manage to elect people like GWB and Clinton and Nixon. Integrity is worth a lot less everywhere.
 
Last edited:
here's how you reply

"Check his voting record" It's something to say something and do it, but Obama contradicts himself left and right. No one calls him out on it, no one does any research on him. Complete and total fraud.
 
I think they all contain reaosnable viewpoints, and if you can't come up with responses to them then you shouldn't respond.

If you go to judicialwatch.org, you will find Obama right near the top of the 10 most corrupt politician list. You must further research their short reasons there, for placing him on that list. This website does this same thing every year. They are very discerning. They spend a LOT of time picking the top 10 MOST corrupt, but then they only list a tiny bit of the reasons. Huck was on there and did SO much more than it says that was totally corrupt, that I was very aware why he was on there. Just check it out. Responses are within Obama's own public history.
 
He's CFR - that's enough for me.

Stewart described the TC and CFR as "private organizations based in New York City which formulate and implement U.S. foreign and domestic policy without public knowledge." He wrote: "Both parties are infiltrated by Rockefeller people. Some pose as 'conservative' patriots and others wear the 'liberal' label. Every four years, voters are privileged to choose between a CFR Democratic and a CFR Republican, or candidates surrounded by CFR 'advisors.' Voters never realize that they are given no real choice."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/586965/posts

His loyalty isn't even to his party but to a cause and purpose with diabolical aspirations - most visibly the destruction of the USA as we know it. The post about Judicial Watch is good evidence to question his ethics. Comparing Ron Paul to Obama is moot.
 
On point B... where the poster said that laissez-faire policies would be a boon to multi-national corporations... he/she is wrong.

Multi-national corporations use the government to quell competition or to stay afloat when their business models become outdated or too inefficient. A truly free marketplace would result in some of these businesses going bankrupt... but at the end of the day, there would be more and smaller businesses to take their place.

Yes...good explanation. It's called competition unlike NO-BID CONTRACTS.

I like your avatar...:p
 
Mr. Obama succumbed to the same political pressure as the rest of his Democratic colleagues, who, after winning control of congress on a promise of ending the war, realized that it might not be politically expedient to actually follow through.

So they chose not to exercise the only real leverage they had against the administration's plans: funding. And the war went on, not because the Democrats could not have stopped it, as they like to say now, but because they chose to go along.

These are people who no longer serve those they represent. They serve themselves and those who buy their favor. This will not change until the great spigot pouring power and money into Washington through the federal government is shut off.
 
Back
Top