The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

[jmdrake]

Just because God issues a command doesn’t mean one can do the command.

Okay. Stop right there becuase you are being intellectually dishonest. I did not say "God issued a command so God must have made it possible." I said God is ABLE to make His commands possible. Either He is, or He isn't. If He is, then it is illogical for you to use the argument that talking about a man choosing God means somehow somebody is elevating man or disparaging God.

Now, here is a promise in the Bible.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I suppose you believe that ^this is some kind of "false promise". That God, through James, is just saying "psyche." And certainly you have the right to have such a strange belief. But James is making it clear that even a "double minded" person has the ability to "draw nigh to God."

Consider this, if you are able to. Lucifer was created perfect. The Bible makes that clear. Yet Lucifer chose to sin. The idea that you are trying to put forward, that the human mind is either all "regenerate" or all "evil" is simply unbiblical and illogical. Just like the "perfect" Lucifer could chose sin, so a sinner whom God has freed to choose Him can still choose
sin. Adam and Eve were also created perfect, yet they chose sin.

Once God takes someone’s heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh, “freeing the mans will” if you want to call it that, then that person will choose God.
You are denying the condition of man. You have church history and Scripture against you.

Wrong. Church history and scripture is squarely on my side. You just deny the truth whever it disagrees with you. Again, why did Lucifer created perfect choose sin? Why did Adam and Eve created perfect choose sin? And why does the Bible say:

Ezekial 33:8 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it.[/b]

The only way you can defend your position is to cherry pick verses that agree with you and ignore or try to explain away everything that disagrees with you. That is a common practice among Calvinists.

Eph2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

That's some nice cherry picking. Maybe you can make a pie next time? But nothing in your cherry picking says anything about the impossiblity of someone who has a new heart to choose sin. Lucifer was created perfect and choose sin. Adam and Eve were created perfect and choose sin. And Ezekiel 33:8 talks about a rigtheous man turning away and choosing evil! Oh, you'll probably say "Well he wasn't really righteous" right? So Ezekiel was lying?

A dead man cannot choose. Once God has given one life, that person will come to Him.

Was Lucifer "dead" when he choose sin? Nope. A person given live can choose to go the other way.

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Right. Jesus won't cast us out. That doesn't mean we can't choose to leave. In the parable of the seed and the sower, some of the seeds represented those who received the words of Jesus with "gladness" but then had no root.

Jesus is teaching a great multitude of people. Many people called Him Lord. Yet when He died, none of them were around. Even His own disciples abandoned Him.

You're point is?

When you are able to follow all of Jesus’ commandments then let me know.

Ah. I see. Anotther straw man argument. So because I believe salvation is a freewill choice that means I believe that everyone who is saved never ever makes a mistake? And you complained about me putting words in your mouth.

Mat5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Yep. That's the goal. Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit brings one to that goal. Remember those disciples you were just disparaging? They were still being sanctified. Post Pentacost Peter never again abandoned the cause of Christ. Since you were citing "church history", Peter was, according to tradition, crucified upside down. That doesn't mean Peter never again made a mistake. But he didn't make that mistake (abandoning his faith) again. That part of his character had been perfected by the work of the Holy Spirit.

John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yep. That's the first step. But belief, true belief leads to action. If all you have is belief, your faith is dead and it does nothing for you. You "believe" but you do not "trust". Go back and read Hebrew 11, the faith chapter. Note that every story of "faith" is really a story of action. By faith Abraham left his home in Ur. By faith Enoch walked with God so closely, that God decided to take him from earth without seeing death. By faith Abel offered the correct sacrifice. By faith Noah built an ark to save himself and his family. Not a single person in Hebrews 11 stopped with mere "belief."

If someone has an effectual call placed on them then they will believe.

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Not being cast out doesn't mean you can't choose to leave.

Romans 12 is not written to the lost. Romans 12 is written to the group of Christians that Paul is speaking with. Paul is speaking about the measure of faith that God has given His people. He is not talking about a common grace in these passages.

Irrelevant. The parables of Jesus make it clear that there will be people who were given faith, became Christians, but because of their own choices are ultimately lost.

A discussion on the parables would require a new thread.

No it doesn't. You just don't want to discuss the entire Bible in this thread because that shows your error.

 

[erowe1]

Even if salvation is a free will choice, some people make that choice and others don't. And whatever it is that causes those that do make it to make it, God is always behind that. And for all those who don't make that choice, there's always something God could have done that would have gotten them to choose salvation with their free wills also, but that God didn't do.

 

[jmdrake]

Even if salvation is a free will choice, some people make that choice and others don't. And whatever it is that causes those that do make it to make it, God is always behind that. And for all those who don't make that choice, there's always something God could have done that would have gotten them to choose salvation with their free wills also, but that God didn't do.

Maybe. Mabye not. I think you're simply imposing your finite understanding on the infinite. I don't believe God to be the author of sin so I don't believe Him to be "behind" Lucifer's obviously freewill choice to commit the first sin. Could God have stopped Lucifer? Sure. By taking away his freewill.

 

[erowe1]

There are people who look like they are saved, but really aren't, and so they won't end up in Heaven.

There are saved people who really are saved, but who seem to fall away, and may appear to the rest of us that they aren't saved, but who will end up in Heaven because they really were saved.

So, when we talk about people falling away, there's always the possibility of them being in either of those two categories.

But the number of people who have been justified, in the sense of having been declared righteous in God's sight, who will not end up being glorified, is zero.

 

[jmdrake]

There are people who look like they are saved, but really aren't, and so they won't end up in Heaven.

The Bible talks about the righteous who turn away, not the "people who just seem like they're righteous."

 

[erowe1]

Maybe. Mabye not.

Here's Matthew 11:20-22

20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

God knew of something he could have done for Tyre and Sidon that would have been guaranteed to result in their repentance, but he didn't do it.

 

[erowe1]

The Bible talks about the righteous who turn away, not the "people who just seem like they're righteous."

Such as where?

Righteousness in the Bible isn't always the same thing. Sometimes it is defined by outward conformity to the Law. Sometimes it is a relative thing.

But there is also the Pauline concept of justification, wherein a person is declared righteous in God's sight, and this justification cannot fail to lead to glorification.

 

[shane77m]

Eph2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me [/U]shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Rom8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Just admit it JD.
You hate a God that is sovereign over His creation.
You hate a God that chose to save one man and his family from a flood that killed everyone else.
You hate a God that chose to reveal Himself to one man that would become the father of many.
You hate a God that chose to make a pagan king act like an animal.
You hate a God who out of all of the people on the Earth, chose to reveal Himself to very tiny population segment.
You hate a God that controls matters of chance.
You hate a God that will take a man and have him sold into slavery to ultimately save his people from famine.
You hate a God that will harden the heart of an Egyptian Pharaoh.
You hate a God that gives and takes away.
You hate a God that is the potter and His creation is merely the clay.

 

[erowe1]

Just admit it JD.
You hate a God that is sovereign over His creation.
You hate a God that chose to save one man and his family from a flood that killed everyone else.
You hate a God that chose to reveal Himself to one man that would become the father of many.
You hate a God that chose to make a pagan king act like an animal.
You hate a God who out of all of the people on the Earth, chose to reveal Himself to very tiny population segment.
You hate a God that controls matters of chance.
You hate a God that will take a man and have him sold into slavery to ultimately save his people from famine.
You hate a God that will harden the heart of an Egyptian Pharaoh.
You hate a God that gives and takes away.
You hate a God that is the potter and His creation is merely the clay.

I don't get the need people feel to elevate doctrinal disagreements to this kind of accusation.

 

[shane77m]

I don't get the need people feel to elevate doctrinal disagreements to this kind of accusation.

to constantly reject the sovereignty of God over His creation only shows that one hates a sovereign God. To continually elevate man and to give him abilities he does not have goes against a sovereign God. To reject a sovereign God would cover the things I listed. I could say "dislike" if it makes you feel better.

Man always wants to elevate himself to a position that he is not in.

 

[erowe1]

to constantly reject the sovereignty of God over His creation only shows that one hates a sovereign God. To continually elevate man and to give him abilities he does not have goes against a sovereign God. To reject a sovereign God would cover the things I listed. I could say "dislike" if it makes you feel better.

Man always wants to elevate himself to a position that he is not in.

This is still that same kind of hyperbole I was talking about. Who rejected the sovereignty of God over his creation? Who elevated man to give him abilities he doesn't have? Where did jmdrake say any of the things you listed? I haven't seen him say anything denying that God can and does do all of those things. But you leap from his disagreements with you about interpretations of some passages of the Bible to implying that he denies all those things.

Why not just let jmdrake say what his position is, rather than you telling him what it is. I've been on the receiving end of that kind of post my share of times. When it happens to me, it makes it look like the person doing it needs to represent my position as something other than the way I myself represent it, because their version of what I supposedly believe is easier to shoot down than mine.

 

[jmdrake]

Here's Matthew 11:20-22


God knew of something he could have done for Tyre and Sidon that would have been guaranteed to result in their repentance, but he didn't do it.

God also mentioned Sodom. Sodom had the miracle of being saved by Abraham coming to their rescue. Yet they did not change. And look at the ultimate point Jesus was making. The messiah had come. God did everything possible to convince the people then that Jesus was the Christ, but they chose not to change. What does that tell you? That despite all God may do, it still comes down to personal choice.

Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

 

[jmdrake]

Just admit it shane. You are afraid of a God who is sovereign enough to grant freewill to His creation.

Just admit it shane. You lack the congnitive abilities to Biblically defend your unbiblical possitions.

Just admit it shane. You don't really take Jesus at His words and you must pick and choose the Bible in order to make it serve you.

Two can play that silly game.

Eph2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me [/U]shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Rom8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Just admit it JD.
You hate a God that is sovereign over His creation.
You hate a God that chose to save one man and his family from a flood that killed everyone else.
You hate a God that chose to reveal Himself to one man that would become the father of many.
You hate a God that chose to make a pagan king act like an animal.
You hate a God who out of all of the people on the Earth, chose to reveal Himself to very tiny population segment.
You hate a God that controls matters of chance.
You hate a God that will take a man and have him sold into slavery to ultimately save his people from famine.
You hate a God that will harden the heart of an Egyptian Pharaoh.
You hate a God that gives and takes away.
You hate a God that is the potter and His creation is merely the clay.

 

[jmdrake]

Such as where?

Ummmm....I've given the quote multiple times. It's Ezekiel 33:8

Righteousness in the Bible isn't always the same thing. Sometimes it is defined by outward conformity to the Law. Sometimes it is a relative thing.

The context is that a righteous man cannot count on his past righteousness. It says nothing about someone merely "outwardly conforming". The key is that a righteous person can't count on past righteousness to guarantee anything.

But there is also the Pauline concept of justification, wherein a person is declared righteous in God's sight, and this justification cannot fail to lead to glorification.

As long as one stays in the sanctification process, it cannot fail to lead to glorification. But one can choose to fall away. Even Paul warned about that multiple times. He warned the Gentiles, that he said had been "grafted in", not to get to cocky because they could fall away just like many of his own people fell away. The only gurantee is for those who abide in Christ. But, according to Jesus and Paul, you aren't forced to abide in Christ. You can be like the branch that falls away.

 

[jmdrake]

to constantly reject the sovereignty of God over His creation only shows that one hates a sovereign God.

Except nobody, with the possible exception of you, has rejected God's sovereignty over His creation. A sovereign God has the ability, and the confidence, to grant freewill.

Man always wants to elevate himself to a position that he is not in.

Man always wants to shirk responsibility for his own fall. It's easier to say "God made me do it."

 

[erowe1]

God also mentioned Sodom. Sodom had the miracle of being saved by Abraham coming to their rescue. Yet they did not change.

Right. And God knew they wouldn't change. And he also knew what it would have taken for them to change, and whatever that was, he didn't do it.

Same thing goes for everyone else who has ever rejected God, including those in Matthew 23:37.

 

[jmdrake]

Right. And God knew they wouldn't change. And he also knew what it would have taken for them to change, and whatever that was, he didn't do it.

Same thing goes for everyone else who has ever rejected God, including those in Matthew 23:37.

God knowing someone isn't going to change isn't the same as causing them not to change. And back to the Lucifer example, created perfect, in heaven and can see all of the glory of God, best possible nature and nurture. Yet he choose sin. Can I explain exactly how freewill works? No. Probably only God can.

 

[erowe1]

Ummmm....I've given the quote multiple times. It's Ezekiel 33:8

I thought that's what you were alluding to, I just wanted to make sure.

There are other passages in Ezekiel that say variations of the same thing, like Ezekiel 3:18-21 and 18:20-24.

All these need to be understood within the context of the book of Ezekiel, which needs to be understood within the context of Ezekiel's role as a mediator of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai. The Law of Moses was a conditional covenant based on works. And it brought blessings and curses to the nation of Israel and the individuals within it according to their obedience to those commands. And these blessings and curses are all physical things like drought, famine, locusts, and so on. And the pinnacle of those curses was to be defeat by a foreign nation and exile from the promised land (see all of the curses listed in Deuteronomy 28). Ezekiel (like many of the prophets) is telling Israel that they have broken the commands and will now experience the curses, and for Ezekiel it is that final curse of exile. None of these blessings and curses include Heaven or Hell, either in the Law of Moses or in the prophecies of Ezekiel.

To see this, see the beginning of Ezekiel 2 which I think sets the tone of the book:

Then He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet that I may speak with you!” 2 As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me. 3 Then He said to me, “Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 4 I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ 5 As for them, whether they listen or not—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them. 6 And you, son of man, neither fear them nor fear their words, though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house. 7 But you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious.

That the transgressions he's talking about are transgressions of the covenant God made with them at Sinai is clear from passages like Ezekiel 18:5-9, where it includes things like charging interest and approaching a woman in her menstrual period:

5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6 and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period— 7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, 9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.

Notice that it refers to this observance of the Mosaic Law as "righteousness" here. This must be the same kind of righteousness meant in 18:20-24 and the other passages that talk about a righteous person becoming wicked. It's talking about a Torah observant person going on to violate the Torah.

But the righteousness in God's sight that Paul talks about is something that no one can ever attain by Torah observance. He brings up this possibility in Romans 2 only to show how it is doomed to failure. The point you raise from Ezekiel is, I think, part of what Paul is talking about there since, even if a person might be scrupulous in their observance of the Law for a time, that won't be enough if they ever stumble in the future. He does this that he can present in its place the good news of a righteousness apart from the Torah, that he begins explaining in Romans 3:21, which comes, not by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus. It is this justification by faith in Jesus that is the only way a person can be righteous in God's sight, and it is this justification that he is talking about when he promises that all people who have ever been justified are guaranteed to be glorified.

And so understanding the different senses of righteousness, and how the kind of righteousness mentioned in Ezekiel goes along with the unobtainable righteousness Paul talks about in Romans 2, in contrast with righteousness by faith apart from the law in Romans 3:21 and following, actually turns out to be vital here.

 

[jmdrake]

I thought that's what you were alluding to, I just wanted to make sure.

I don't at all agree with your analysis. But even if I did, Paul warned those "grafted in" to Christianity to be careful lest the "fall away." Paul apparently didn't want people to be as self assured of their grafting as you wish them to be.

 

[erowe1]

I don't at all agree with your analysis. But even if I did, Paul warned those "grafted in" to Christianity to be careful lest the "fall away." Paul apparently didn't want people to be as self assured of their grafting as you wish them to be.

I see that as describing groups of people as groups, not as individuals. The natural branches who were broken off weren't individual Israelites who used to have faith but then lost it, but Israelites in general who didn't believe and thus did not have connection to that tree, whereas they had forebears who were connected to that tree. Similarly, Gentiles were coming to be connected to that tree. But this situation could be done away with, such that future Gentiles would not be.

When talking about individual salvation, Paul goes out of his way to give assurance that, for those who are justified, their future salvation is already guaranteed (e.g. 5:9 and 8:29-30). He isn't telling them to be self-assured, but to have hope in God.