The Old Right Opposed Tariffs

It's an ignorant statement to point out that the realities of travel and transportation meant that most trade was done locally/regionally and that most people who lived in an area were born within that region?
Humans have always traded at a distance. And in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Steam engines, diesel engines, and then shipping containers. Trade is good for the economy.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNkcsQGaV4
 
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Now, conservatives support tariffs as opposed to other taxes, just like Trump.
If Trump could eliminate all other taxes and simply fund (a much smaller) government through tariffs, that would be a huge step in the right direction. But Trump will likely not be able to shrink the government and he has proven he doesn't care about cutting spending. I do think he plans to cut regulation a lot, which is good, and he wants to grow his way out of the government's debt problem, but again, that probably isn't realistic. He should know better, he isn't dumb. Growth alone isn't going to solve the problem, there have to be cuts, which there is never the political will to do. Oh, and Congress has to go along with it too which is unlikely.
 
Good :cool:

For very similar reasons that I have isolated myself from other people as much as possible, I would want my nation to do the same :up:

Fuck other people. Fuck other nations. They bring nothing but trouble.

This world has become far too integrated with each other and it's brought nothing but harm to everyone from both an economic and liberty perspective.

Bring on the isolationism.
Don't confuse isolationism with non-intervention. Commerce and trade is good, entangling military and political alliances are not.
 
America grew its economic muscles on tariffs and atrophied them on free trade.
So this is a myth. First off free trade is good for the economy. But like with many things, we don't actually have free trade because the government intervenes and creates all sorts of rules and regulations for trade, ensuring that it isn't actually free.
 
Humans have always traded at a distance. And in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Steam engines, diesel engines, and then shipping containers. Trade is good for the economy.

You are correct that in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Which then arrives at my point: the trade we have today is quantitatively and qualitatively different than anything we have seen in the past. The quantity is obviously much higher and the nature is similarly much different. In the past, international economic competitive advantage was largely based on regional abundances of raw materials. Today, international economic competitive advantage is largely based on differences in labor costs. It was never historically feasible to save money on labor by getting it built 6,000 miles away and then transporting it.

It is far too early to say that trade is "good" for the economy. There are scenarios where trade is provably bad for an economy.* It also depends on how you define "the economy". If your interest is the economic outcome of the world as a whole, then yes, global trade is economically a good thing. If your interest is the economic outcome of your local economy, then no, it's not quite as clear as that (as proven in the scenario). It may very well be the case that modern trade, being based on short-term differences in labor costs vs other forms of economic advantage, is overall a detriment to a local economy.

Even if we do accept that trade is an overall economic good, that still does not make it however an overall net good. There are cultural, sovereignty, and security costs that come at potentially a heavy price with full global economic integration.


* (Scenario referenced above is at this link: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...an-Consumers&p=7231881&viewfull=1#post7231881)
 
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Don't confuse isolationism with non-intervention. Commerce and trade is good, entangling military and political alliances are not.

Commerce and trade in limited quantities is good. But when you start trading for things that you should (as a responsible adult, and/or nation) be producing yourself, that's when it starts doing more harm than good.

If you inherit a fully functional corn farm from your grandparents, it would be extremely irresponsible to sell off the farm, spend your cash on hookers and coke, and then take on debt so you can afford corn to feed yourself with. That is what we have done as a nation, and that is what modern trade has taken the form of.
 
Commerce and trade in limited quantities is good. But when you start trading for things that you should (as a responsible adult, and/or nation) be producing yourself, that's when it starts doing more harm than good.
This is economic ignorance at its height. Specialization is critical, buy stuff from people who are efficient at making said stuff. Make something on your own and then sell it to market too. The idea of making things yourself for your own consumption is economically idiotic. (I'm not talking about prepping, gardening, hobbies, etc here).




If you inherit a fully functional corn farm from your grandparents, it would be extremely irresponsible to sell off the farm, spend your cash on hookers and coke, and then take on debt so you can afford corn to feed yourself with.
On a personal level, the best thing to do would be to sell it off, and invest the proceeds while gaining a skill or trade to bring in cashflow.
 
It is far too early to say that trade is "good" for the economy.
You just failed business 101. All equitable transactions benefit both sides of the transaction.


Now what you may have a legitimate problem with is that to be hoenst a lot of trade today isn't equitable... and it isn't because governments intervene (due to restrictions, tariffs, etc).

Free trade is undeniably good for the economy. But like with everything else, it isn't truly free because the government screws it up.



If your interest is the economic outcome of your local economy, then no, it's not quite as clear as that (as proven in the scenario).
This is again, economic ignorance. Industries and firm propped up by artificial government stimulus, handouts, restrictions, grants, taxes, subsidies, etc are clearly inefficient and needs to be liquidated. If a business can't compete, then it shouldn't be in business.






There are cultural, sovereignty, and security costs that come at potentially a heavy price with full global economic integration.
Not really. Where are you getting told all of these myths? Not sure what you read but you should probably find some better more reliable freedom-oriented sources for your understanding of economics.
 
This is economic ignorance at its height. Specialization is critical, buy stuff from people who are efficient at making said stuff. Make something on your own and then sell it to market too. The idea of making things yourself for your own consumption is economically idiotic. (I'm not talking about prepping, gardening, hobbies, etc here).

The point was, a responsible adult will limit how many irresponsible trades they make. As an individual, irresponsible trades can look like paying exorbitant fees to get groceries delivered to you when the grocery store is 3 blocks away. I do this personally because I can afford it but it's expensive and addictive and even though I can afford it, it is still quite irresponsible as I'm not doing anything "productive" with the time I'm saving. I'm just being exceptionally lazy.

These irresponsible trades destroy personal wealth. Or more accurately, that wealth gets transferred. When you buy hookers and coke, yes both sides benefit in terms of value, but only one side benefits in terms of wealth.

The same thing happens at a national level. Nations can make irresponsible trades. If a nation sells its means of production, and then spends that money on consumption products - which is what this nation did - then that is an irresponsible trade.

There is almost no such thing as "specialization" when it comes to countries the size of the US. There are very few products that other countries can produce better due to advantages other than simply labor cost. (Exceptions including, tropical produce, a few rare minerals, etc)

I have proven that these labor-cost based trades can be detrimental to a country's economy. (See, the referenced link from earlier) I welcome any attempts to disprove it.


On a personal level, the best thing to do would be to sell it off, and invest the proceeds while gaining a skill or trade to bring in cashflow.

Which is fine also. If you sell means of production, and reinvest it in other means of production, that's a perfectly healthy - and responsible - exchange.

If you sell your countries' nearly entire means of production, so your country can have 40 years of cheaper plastic goods from China, and reinvest none of the savings into your infrastructure, that is not quite... responsible.
 
You just failed business 101. All equitable transactions benefit both sides of the transaction.

If a business spends all their money on hookers and coke, it is indeed an equitable transaction with both sides benefiting. But that business is still gonna go out of business no matter how equitable it was.

You just failed business 102.


Free trade is undeniably good for the economy.

I welcome any attempts to disprove the scenario I linked. The scenario I have provided proves the above statement wrong. (that it is "undeniably" good)



Not really. Where are you getting told all of these myths? Not sure what you read but you should probably find some better more reliable freedom-oriented sources for your understanding of economics.

A myth? Your outright dismissal of the claim that global economic integration has costs in cultural, sovereignty, and security, makes you look like a religious fanatic of free trade, rather than a critical thinking individual.

The risks to culture, sovereignty, and security seems to me at least extremely obvious, but I am happy to detail what I meant by that.


Culture

The global language has become English and other languages are rapidly declining in use and will be effectively extinct within generations. The free movement of people and products is rapidly leading to the global homogenization of culture where everyone and everything is the same. No matter where you go in the world you can find a Pizza Hut or a McDonalds and while even those have regional differences now they will eventually all be the exact same.

The global export of Hollywood and its formative impacts on children is gradually aligning everyone in the world to the same customs & values, which is exacerbated by the free movement of people.

If we look at Iran, they have (largely) managed to retain its cultural customs & values despite western unpopularity of its ideals. The limitations of trade with Iran have almost certainly helped them to retain their culture. If they were fully exposed to free trade over the past 50 years or so, their culture would likely look radically different than it does today.

Meanwhile, America's culture has become diluted (if not outright destroyed) by the free movement of people that have come into it. Baseball is often cited as a part of American culture. Last year's World Series was the least-watched World Series of all time (https://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml)

The impact to America's ideals and values is unfortunately more abstract and less measurable, but still incredibly impactful. Gone are the concepts of "Rugged independence", "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". It's now all about common welfare and safety nets.

We are leading to a global homogenization of culture and this has serious risks to sovereignty, both nationally, and more generally, as I will explain below.

Sovereignty

Free trade poses multiple risks to sovereignty. In the long term, the erosion of culture and national identity will remove the largest barrier to a One World Government. When everyone in the world speaks the same language, shares similar values, laughs at the same jokes, has similar political systems, and uses the same currency, there will be no remaining cultural barriers to a global One World Government. This is perhaps the most important sovereignty risk as there will be nowhere to hide once this is done.

Other more immediate risks to sovereignty are more straight forward. If your country has a reliance on foreign trade for a product, the countries that provide that product can exert influence over you, either individually, or as a group. Even if you have multiple trading partners available, short-term reductions in supply from a single partner can have impactful consequences to your economy. This effect is exacerbated by specialization, which is a "good thing" economically, but certainly bad when it comes to protecting your sovereignty.

Security

We saw this during COVID, it shouldn't require much explanation. If your country relies on computer chips to function, and those computer chips are supplied via container ships across the pacific ocean, then those products cannot be reliably depended upon in terms of international crisis/strife/warfare.

If we were to theoretically "specialize" (which is a "good thing") all of our food production to countries across the various oceans, exactly how fucked would we be if those supply lines were cut off due to war or crisis? Pretty damn fucked, is what the answer.

As I've said before, there are irresponsible trades, that just because you can make, doesn't mean you should. Even if these trades "save money".
 
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The benefits of free trade - to the extent they exist - are minimal at best.

The consequences of free trade? Potentially a one world government and the elimination of sovereignty in all of its forms.

Its not worth it.
 
Tariffs should be voluntary.

Anybody who supports tariffs should send extra money to the federal government based on however much stuff they buy from other countries, and as for why the rest of us don't do that, they should mind their own business.
 
False, the real old right supported tariffs instead of all other taxes.

Cherry picking history won't change the fact that free trade was a globalist leftist innovation designed to overthrow the status quo and empower the rootless cosmopolitan banksters.

The OP cited examples of Old Right figures who opposed tariffs. I don't doubt that you can find a counterexample or two. But if so, how would that not be just as much cherry picking on your part?
 
So this is a myth. First off free trade is good for the economy. But like with many things, we don't actually have free trade because the government intervenes and creates all sorts of rules and regulations for trade, ensuring that it isn't actually free.

And like "real communism" it will never happen.

But it is not good for the economy beyond supplying that which we can't supply for ourselves, it creates fragility and interdependence which feed globalism.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be has a corollary, neither export nor import dependent be.

And what I said is not a myth, it's historical fact, and is shown by many other historical examples as well.
 
The OP cited examples of Old Right figures who opposed tariffs. I don't doubt that you can find a counterexample or two. But if so, how would that not be just as much cherry picking on your part?

"Old" right.
Very modern figures who had been indoctrinated in the free trade cult.

All Conservatives were in favor of tariffs as how to do things if you go back to when free trade was first proposed as an innovation.
But to go just a little bit back we find this:

The Payne–Aldrich Tariff Act of 1909 (ch. 6, 36 Stat. 11), named for Representative Sereno E. Payne (R–NY) and Senator Nelson W. Aldrich (R–RI), began in the United States House of Representatives as a bill raising certain tariffs on goods entering the United States.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] The high rates angered Republican reformers, and led to a deep split in the Republican Party.

Protectionism was the ideological cement holding the Republican coalition together. High tariffs were used by Republicans to promise higher sales to business, higher wages to industrial workers, and higher demand for farm products. Progressive insurgents said it promoted monopoly. Democrats said it was a tax on the little man. It had greatest support in the Northeast, and greatest opposition in the South and West. The Midwest was the battle ground.[SUP][5][/SUP]
President Taft was disliked by Theodore Roosevelt because he didn't reduce tariffs which led to Roosevelt running for re-election. Since there were two Republicans in the vote, it led to the party's votes being split. That soon led to Woodrow Wilson being elected. However, the United States Senate speedily substituted a bill written by Aldrich, calling for fewer reductions and more increases in tariffs. It was the first change in tariff laws since the Dingley Act of 1897.[SUP][6][/SUP] Progressive Republicans wanted to lower tariffs but Conservative leader Senator Aldrich prevailed by winning over some Democrats (despite the Democratic national platform calling for lower tariffs). These Democrats represented states with industry facing imports of iron ore, lumber, hides, coal, and other items. Senator Joseph Bailey of Texas defended the votes but Democrats William Jennings Bryan, Henry Watterson, and Josephus Daniels denounced them. In response the Democratic caucus imposed more discipline before the Democrats took control of the House in 1911.[SUP][7][/SUP]
An additional provision of the bill provided for the creation of a tariff board to study the problem of tariff modification in full and to collect information on the subject for the use of Congress and the President in future tariff considerations. Another provision allowed for free trade with the Philippines, then under American control. Congress passed the bill officially on April 9, 1909.[SUP][8][/SUP] The bill states it would "take effect the day following its passage."[SUP][9][/SUP] President Taft officially signed the bill at 5:05 pm on August 5, 1909.[SUP][10][/SUP]

More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payne–Aldrich_Tariff_Act


Free Trade is Progressivism and globalism.
 
It just doesnt matter except as an ideal. Some people may or may not support certain tariffs if no income tax etc. You live in a country tat cannot replace current or future fed govt spending w/ tariffs and income tax witout a deficit. Your country is doomed to fail because citizens voted reps and senators youve got. Too late now for solutions to come from it.
 
All that means to me is government "solutions and fixes" to government created problems.


Now he’s praising the Payne-Aldrich Tariff Act of 1909? I wonder if he knows that Sen. Nelson W. Aldrich was the very guy who organized the covert meeting on Jekyll Island that gave birth to the Federal Reserve Act? But I’m sur Aldrich had nothing but the best interests of the average American in mind when he helped craft that tariff act. Certainly there couldn’t have been any other motive from a stand-up guy like Aldrich, right?

ETA: Aldrich was, in fact, the father in law of old John D. Rockefeller himself. Future vice president Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, his grandson, was actually named after him. At the time Aldrich was well known as a “Rockefeller man” in congress. He represented not his actual constituents but the Rockefeller financial empire. IIRC his reputation among real conservatives and liberty loving Americans was so bad that his involvement with the Federal Reserve Act had to be carefully concealed lest that revelation doom the bill’s chances. As I recall, he even pretended to oppose the bill in a successful effort to dupe enough Americans to go along with it to get it passed. He was a globalist, progressive scumbag and NOTHING he was ever involved in, including the tariff act bearing his name, was good for America or its people.
 
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Now he’s praising the Payne-Aldrich Tariff Act of 1909? I wonder if he knows that Sen. Nelson W. Aldrich was the very guy who organized the covert meeting on Jekyll Island that gave birth to the Federal Reserve Act? But I’m sur Aldrich had nothing but the best interests of the average American in mind when he helped craft that tariff act. Certainly there couldn’t have been any other motive from a stand-up guy like Aldrich, right?

Aldritch was following the party line, the conservative party line, that was just his cover.
He also probably wanted to set up tariffs as the scapegoat when the coming fed destroyed the economy.

Cherry picking him as one person does nothing to change that it was progressives who wanted free trade in order to destroy the native patriotic rich and the middle class to benefit the rootless cosmopolitan international class and bring on globalism.
 
All that means to me is government "solutions and fixes" to government created problems.

Bunk.
Free trade was desired to make the income tax a necessity.
Tariffs don't solve a government created problem, they solve a foreigner related problem, and they are the best source of the funds for the necessary functions of government.
 
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