The official ICE abusing American citizens thread

Invisible Man said:
Are you saying this includes kidnapping innocent American citizens?
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The founders of our nation had to fight off the most powerful empire in the world to claim the country as ours. We can deal with being a little mildly inconvenienced and having our feelings hurt.
 
nikcers said:
The founders of our nation had to fight off the most powerful empire in the world to claim the country as ours. We can deal with being a little mildly inconvenienced and having our feelings hurt.
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Kidnapping someone is not a mild inconvenience. It is a violent criminal act. Use of deadly force to defend yourself or another person against a criminal attempting to do this is justifiable.

Don't you agree?
 
Invisible Man said:
Kidnapping someone is not a mild inconvenience. It is a violent criminal act. Use of deadly force to defend yourself or another person against a criminal attempting to do this is justifiable.

Don't you agree?
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I don't characterize law enforcement as kidnapping.

We have to enforce laws to have laws.

If we don't have laws then murder and theft is effectively legal.

The cost of having law enforcement is that the government is not perfect and sometimes they can mildly inconvenience me.

Thats a price I am willing to pay to live in peace and not have people constantly murdering and stealing from my family.

Living under the rule of law is non negotiable in our country.
 
Invisible Man said:
Neither do I.

Since this is a case of kidnapping, it is not law enforcement.
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Are the people that you are accusing of being "kidnappers" legitimate federal law enforcement officers tasked with enforcing our laws?

Or are these "private citizens" who are not on the clock and being paid as employees of our federal government to enforce our laws?

One group of people holds certain powers temporarily that are our powers in our government that is "power of the people" and that power is so they can enforce our laws.

Without that power we don't have laws.

Living under the rule of law is not negotiable. Sometimes we can be inconvenienced or have our feelings hurt but its a hell of a lot better than living under anarchy.

They have anarchy in the eastern regions of Ukraine and they are being bombed constantly.
 
Invisible Man said:
It doesn't matter who they are. It matters what they did.
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What they did was mildly inconvenience people and hurt their feelings in the pursuit of enforcing our laws.

Are you going to be like the crazy people who pretend like anarchy doesn't look like whats happening in eastern Ukraine?

Do you prefer anarchy? I prefer living in peace and being mildly inconvenienced and having my feelings hurt every now and then to living in anarchy.
 
Voluntarist said:
So you offer to show your papers when they confront you. They refuse to look at them, take you into custody and then transfer you to a federal building several miles away. Then when they finally look at your "papers" and discover you're a US citizen, they refuse to take you back to where you were when they detained you; and you have to walk through several miles of Minneapolis snow to get back to where you were.

ICE agents wrongfully detained U.S. citizen who offered to show passport

#Papers Please
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Like the detainment and (apparently unlawful) forced identification of the woman in a previous story (regarding which, see my remarks here), this is nothing new - nor is it unique to the feds (such as ICE), or to alleged/suspected illegal immigrants. It's pretty much par-for-course SOP for all law enforcement. (And at least the assholes at ICE seem to tend to let their victims go afterwards, without the further victimizations of unwarranted charges, arrests, jailings, etc. )

I wonder why I've never heard "Minneapolis leaders", et al. bitching about any of those many other cases. Oh, well - I'm sure they'll start doing so now that they've belatedly become aware of the problem. Or maybe not. Maybe they don't actually give a shit, and only pretend to be "outraged" when they can make some political "Red vs. Blue" hay out of it.

(And as for things like passports, "Real ID", etc. - the purpose of cattle brands isn't so much to tell Bessie apart from other cows as it is to establish ownership of Bessie.)

Occam's Banana

Post in thread 'When AI gets innocent people arrested & charged'

"What the fuck good is the ID, then?" -- Jason Killinger

Good question.

Killinger had a perfectly valid and entirely legitimate "Real ID" drivers license. It didn't matter. Two programmed robots - a private casino's "facial recognition" AI system, and the cop who arrested him based on nothing but the AI's say-so - didn't care.

Reasonable articulable suspicion? Well, you see, the software is "pretty cool", so denying the accuracy of its output is "super suspicious".

(As for probable cause - never heard of it! What even is that? And whatever it is, who needs it when you've got...
 
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Occam's Banana said:
Like the detainment and (apparently unlawful) forced identification of the woman in a previous story (regarding which, see my remarks here), this is nothing new - nor is it unique to the feds (such as ICE), or to alleged/suspected illegal immigrants. It's pretty much par-for-course SOP for all law enforcement. (And at least the assholes at ICE seem to tend to let their victims go afterwards, without the further victimizations of unwarranted charges, arrests, jailings, etc. )

I wonder why I've never heard "Minneapolis leaders", et al. bitching about any of those many other cases. Oh, well - I'm sure they'll start doing so now that they've belatedly become aware of the problem. Or maybe not. Maybe they don't actually give a shit, and only pretend to be "outraged" when they can make some political "Red vs. Blue" hay out of it.

(And as for things like passports, "Real ID", etc. - the purpose of cattle brands isn't so much to tell Bessie apart from the other cows as it is to establish ownership of Bessie.)

Occam's Banana

Post in thread 'When AI gets innocent people arrested & charged'

"What the fuck good is the ID, then?" -- Jason Killinger

Good question.

Killinger had a perfectly valid and entirely legitimate "Real ID" drivers license. It didn't matter. Two programmed robots - a private casino's "facial recognition" AI system, and the cop who arrested him based on nothing but the AI's say-so - didn't care.

Reasonable articulable suspicion? Well, you see, the software is "pretty cool", so denying the accuracy of its output is "super suspicious".

(As for probable cause - never heard of it! What even is that? And whatever it is, who needs it when you've got...
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This isn't red vs blue.

This is globalists who want to take over and conquer the United States and in other words the American people vs the current and duly elected Federal government.
 
nikcers said:
This isn't red vs blue.

This is globalists who want to take over and conquer the United States and in other words the American people vs the current and duly elected Federal government.
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The Federal government = globalists who have already taken over and conquered the United States and the American people.
 
Invisible Man said:
The Federal government = globalists who have already taken over and conquered the United States and the American people.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I have met federal government representatives and employees of the federal government and have shaken some of their hands.

They dont seem to represent foreign nationals in the governments current form.

They are deporting foreign national invaders.
 
Voluntarist said:
That's exactly what it's saying. Guess which vertex of the Nolan Chart he lives in.
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Its not kidnapping when its our own federal government.

Thats like child saying that their own parents kidnapped them.

Our government has authority to, and permission to, given to them by us, enforce our laws to the best of their abilities.

If they do a bad job at it we have the power, and the responsibility as citizens in our country, fire them and hire different people to do it.
 
nikcers said:
Its not kidnapping when its our own federal government.

Thats like child saying that their own parents kidnapped them.

Our government has authority to, and permission to, given to them by us, enforce our laws to the best of their abilities.

If they do a bad job at it we have the power, and the responsibility as citizens in our country, fire them and hire different people to do it.
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Being an agent of the federal government doesn't give someone a special right to kidnap peeople.

We may not have the power to fire them for doing that (it's naive to think we do). But fortunately in 28 states we do have the legally recognized right to use lethal force against them when they do.
 
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Invisible Man said:
Being an agent of the federal government doesn't give someone a special right to kidnap peeople.

We may not have the power to fire them for doing that. But fortunately in 28 states we do have the power to use lethal force against them when they do.
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A person or even a state does not retain a right to use lethal force against the federal government.

If a state uses lethal force against the federal thats considered treasonous.

There are many federal laws that people would be held accountable to in such a situation and the United States will defend itself against any such acts.
 
nikcers said:
A person or even a state does not retain a right to use lethal force against the federal government.
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I was referring to using lethal force against individuals who happen to work for the federal government. My post was clear about that.
 
Invisible Man said:
I was referring to using lethal force against individuals who happen to work for the federal government. My post was clear about that.
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The right to self defense against the people who are part of the organization that we call federal government has extraordinary legal standards to prove.

The Federal government has supremacy over state laws. Therefore the laws of the federal government have supremacy over state laws.

Citing laws that exist in 28 states as a defense against the federal government isn't going to stand up in a federal court of law.
 
Voluntarist said:
He's also fine with "his home" being used as a prison where guards tell him which liberties he has and when he can enjoy them.
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We are the prisoners and the prison guards of our own home.

Thats the contradiction of a union where we are considered one people.

"Out of many, one"
 
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