The official ICE abusing American citizens thread

[jmdrake]

Democracy isn't a suicidal pact.

That's why America isn't a democracy.

 

[nikcers]

That's why America isn't a democracy.

Who is the ruler then?

Who runs barter town??

Its a type of democracy. Its called a representative democracy with constitutional laws.

Thats a type of democracy we call it a modernized democracy or american democracy.

 

[jmdrake]

Can anybody help me understand how anything nikcers says here has anything to do with the post he was replying to?

LOL. He's a babbling bucket of bolts. I usually have him on ignore but sometimes read other people's responses to him and I take him off temporarily to see what's driving the conversation. I think he's making some sort of appeal to the "white replacement theory" only he's so garbled that even those who agree with him on that won't defend his gibberish.

 

[nikcers]

LOL. He's a babbling bucket of bolts. I usually have him on ignore but sometimes read other people's responses to him and I take him off temporarily to see what's driving the conversation. I think he's making some sort of appeal to the "white replacement theory" only he's so garbled that even those who agree with him on that won't defend his gibberish.

Its not only white replacement it is demographic entrapment.

Its genocide.

Its an invasion.

 

[Invisible Man]

The one who was driving the car owned by a foreign national and they pulled the car of the foreign national over and questioned the person driving the foreign nationals car?

So if there's someone out there whom I want to kidnap, and that person drives a car owned by a foreign national, I can wear a mask and tell them I'm from the government without revealing my identity to them, and they have to do my bidding without resistance?

 

[nikcers]

So if there's someone out there whom I want to kidnap, and that person drives a car owned by a foreign national, I can wear a mask and tell them I'm from the government without revealing my identity to them, and they have to do my bidding without resistance?

No if you impersonate the government that's illegal and you will be convicted of a felony.

 

[Invisible Man]

No if you impersonate the government that's illegal and you will be convicted of a felony.

Right. If I get caught.

But until then, the person still has to do what I say. They can't demand proof that I really am from the government. Because if I were really from the government, I wouldn't be required to provide that. There's no number they can call where they report to them my name and badge number and ask if I'm really who I say I am, because if I were from the government I wouldn't be obligated to provide those. You're saying that government agents can detain someone, while giving that person no way of knowing they're really government agents doing that lawfully, and in spite of this, their victim still has no right to act in their own self defense against these assailants who are indistinguishable to them from criminal kidnappers.

Given that, the practical result is that actual criminal kidnappers can do the same thing, and their victims also have to comply in case their kidnappers really are the government after all.

 

[nikcers]

Right. If I get caught.

But until then, the person still has to do what I say. They can't demand proof that I really am from the government. Because if I were really from the government, I wouldn't be required to provide that. There's no number they can call where they report to them my name and badge number and ask if I'm really who I say I am, because if I were from the government I wouldn't be obligated to provide those. You're saying that government agents can detain someone, while giving that person no way of knowing they're really government agents doing that lawfully, and in spite of this, their victim still has no right to act in their own self defense against these assailants who are indistinguishable to them from criminal kidnappers.

Given that, the practical result is that actual criminal kidnappers can do the same thing, and their victims also have to comply in case their kidnappers really are the government after all.

Thats called American justice. Its not a perfect system but its better than the alternative. The alternative is that its not illegal if I impersonate the government and kidnap you even if I get caught doing it and its proven.

 

[Invisible Man]

Thats called American justice. Its not a perfect system but its better than the alternative. The alternative is that its not illegal if I impersonate the government and kidnap you even if I get caught doing it and its proven.

1) That isn't normal in American justice (not yet at any rate).

2) If something is wrong, like this is, then it should be called out as wrong. If there's precedent for doing the wrong thing, that's not an excuse.

3) No, the alternative is not that all crimes have to be made not illegal. The alternative is simply that we observe ethical norms in the enforcement of prohibitions of crimes.

 

[nikcers]

1) That isn't normal in American justice (not yet at any rate).

2) If something is wrong, like this is, then it should be called out as wrong. If there's precedent for doing the wrong thing, that's not an excuse.

3) No, the alternative is not that all crimes have to be made not illegal. The alternative is simply that we observe ethical norms in the enforcement of prohibitions of crimes.

The norms are that people in power have that monopoly on force to enforce laws.

Absence of government enforcement you just get other people enforcing their laws.

You might get kidnapped by the Mormons and taken away to a Mormon prison or kidnapped by the scientologists and taken to a scientologist prison.

You might get kidnapped by the mafia and buried in the desert.

We have american justice in our country and thats the better alternative. They are our laws and our law enforcement.

If you effect to change the system to an alternate you are trying to destroy american justice and replace it.

 

[Occam's Banana]

According to Newsweek, she was driving her illegal alien boyfriend's car, refused to comply with repeated lawfully given orders by law enforcement to identify herself. She was removed from the vehicle and briefly held while her identity was confirmed. She was promptly released once her identity was confirmed.

If they were looking for her "illegal alien boyfriend" and the car was known to be owned by or registered to him, then that would be a reasonable basis for conducting an investigative stop for purposes of identifying (and subsequently detaining/arresting) him - but not her.

And once they discovered that he was not in the car, and that she was not who they were looking for (because a "she" is not a "him", regardless of what the crazies say), they had no lawful authority to require her to identify herself unless they had "reasonable articulable suspicion" (RAS) that she (and not just her boyfriend) had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime. Suspicion of violation of one or more traffic or vehicle laws (even if it was just used as a pretext for the stop) would be a lawful basis for requiring her to identify herself - but ICE are not traffic cops, and as far as I know, as feds, they have absolutely no authority to enforce state or local traffic laws.

However, I'm not really sure why anyone would or should see this as some kind of indicator of nascent tyranny, except out of ignorance of what's been going on all along. This kind of petty tyranny is already regnant. Unlawful demands for identification by law enforcement (with escalating consequences for those who refuse to comply with those unlawful demands) is utterly mundane and routine, and has been for a long, long time now.

As I've pointed out elsewhere (and more than once):

[...] cops are like crack addicts jonesing for a fix when it comes to IDing people.

ID refusals are one of their favorite excuses for escalation. Anarcho-tryanny, indeed.

I could start hundreds of threads about such events [1], and anyone who has seen enough police interaction videos could do the same. But such incidents typically don't have any particular connection to or association with Donald Trump, and don't involve things like ICE and illegal immigrants (or their girlfriends) - so I guess they just aren't "sexy" enough for as many people to give a damn about.



[1] Here's just one of myriad possible examples:

Pastor Arrested for Watering Neighbor’s Flowers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H7Yp6yuFyE
{The Civil Rights Lawyer | 26 May 2022}

An Alabama pastor who was helping a neighbor by watering her roses was confronted by police after another Karen neighbor reported a suspicious person. They demanded ID and that he respect their authority. He stood up for his rights and refused to be harassed. They arrested him for obstruction. Was he required to provide ID? What is reasonable suspicion? What to know….

Case law at the link: https://thecivilrightslawyer.com/2022/05/26/pastor-arrested-for-watering-neighbors-flowers/

Link: https://whnt.com/news/alabama-news/childersburg-pastor-arrested-after-watering-neighbors-plants/



Cops Arrest Pastor For Watering Neighbor's Flowers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2HEpfdXmYY
{Audit the Audit | 26 September 2022}

Original Video: Body cam footage of Alabama pastor arrested for watering neighbor's plants

AL.com’s channel: https://www.youtube.com/@aldotcom

Sources:

Articles:
- https://n.pr/3D21XGg
- https://abcn.ws/3RouIS3
- https://bit.ly/3eobNbk
- https://bit.ly/3eobNbk
- https://bit.ly/3es90Ov

Ala. Code § 15-5-30- https://bit.ly/3C1NE0s
Schultz v. State- https://bit.ly/3BiLM6b
United States v. Sokolow- https://bit.ly/3CSabxu
Navarette v. California- https://bit.ly/2Nzuo6W
Ala. Code § 13A-7-4- https://bit.ly/3TQLR8n
Ala. Code § 13A-7-1- https://bit.ly/3TMt2mU
Ala. Code § 13A-11-32- https://bit.ly/3BhOlFC
Ala. Code § 13A-11-7- https://bit.ly/3KOq6lL
Ala. Code § 13A-10-2- https://bit.ly/3CYQffG
Kleinschnitz v. Phares- https://bit.ly/3BiVS7h
​

​

 

[nikcers]

If they were looking for her "illegal alien boyfriend" and the car was known to be owned by or registered to him, then that would be a reasonable basis for conducting an investigative stop for purposes of identifying (and subsequently detaining/arresting) him - but not her.

But once they discovered that he was not in the car, and that she was not who they were looking for (because a "she" is not a "him", regardless of what the crazies say), they had no lawful authority to require her to identify herself unless they had "reasonable articulable suspicion" (RAS) that she (and not just her boyfriend) had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime. Suspicion of violation of one or more traffic laws (even if it was just used as a pretext for the stop) would be considered a lawful basis for requiring identification - but ICE are not traffic cops, and as far as I know, as feds, they have absolutely no authority to enforce state or local traffic laws.

However, I'm not really sure why anyone would see this some kind of indicator of nascent tyranny, except out of ignorance. This kind of petty tyranny is already regnant, and has been for a long, long time. Unlawful demands for identification by law enforcement - with escalating consequences for those who refuse to comply with those unlawful demands - is utterly mundane and routine.

As I've pointed out elsewhere (and more than once):

​

I could start hundreds of threads about such events [1], and anyone who has seen enough police interaction videos could do the same. But since such incidents don't have any particular connection to or association with Donald Trump, and don't involve things like ICE and illegal immigrants (or their girlfriends), I guess they just aren't "sexy" enough for as many people to give a damn about.



[1] Here's just one of myriad possible examples:

Pastor Arrested for Watering Neighbor’s Flowers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H7Yp6yuFyE
{The Civil Rights Lawyer | 26 May 2022}

An Alabama pastor who was helping a neighbor by watering her roses was confronted by police after another Karen neighbor reported a suspicious person. They demanded ID and that he respect their authority. He stood up for his rights and refused to be harassed. They arrested him for obstruction. Was he required to provide ID? What is reasonable suspicion? What to know….

Case law at the link: https://thecivilrightslawyer.com/2022/05/26/pastor-arrested-for-watering-neighbors-flowers/

Link: https://whnt.com/news/alabama-news/childersburg-pastor-arrested-after-watering-neighbors-plants/



Cops Arrest Pastor For Watering Neighbor's Flowers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2HEpfdXmYY
{Audit the Audit | 26 September 2022}

Original Video: Body cam footage of Alabama pastor arrested for watering neighbor's plants

AL.com’s channel: https://www.youtube.com/@aldotcom

Sources:

Articles:
- https://n.pr/3D21XGg
- https://abcn.ws/3RouIS3
- https://bit.ly/3eobNbk
- https://bit.ly/3eobNbk
- https://bit.ly/3es90Ov

Ala. Code § 15-5-30- https://bit.ly/3C1NE0s
Schultz v. State- https://bit.ly/3BiLM6b
United States v. Sokolow- https://bit.ly/3CSabxu
Navarette v. California- https://bit.ly/2Nzuo6W
Ala. Code § 13A-7-4- https://bit.ly/3TQLR8n
Ala. Code § 13A-7-1- https://bit.ly/3TMt2mU
Ala. Code § 13A-11-32- https://bit.ly/3BhOlFC
Ala. Code § 13A-11-7- https://bit.ly/3KOq6lL
Ala. Code § 13A-10-2- https://bit.ly/3CYQffG
Kleinschnitz v. Phares- https://bit.ly/3BiVS7h
​

​

Its still far superior to other forms or systems.

When my friends in the Marine corps went to Tijuana their police tried to rob them and tried to beat them up but they being US marines beat the shit out of them and then drove back to the United States.

 

[Voluntarist]

It's reached a tipping point now where this BS can longer be defended.

So you offer to show your papers when they confront you. They refuse to look at them, take you into custody and then transfer you to a federal building several miles away. Then when they finally look at your "papers" and discover you're a US citizen, they refuse to take you back to where you were when they detained you; and you have to walk through several miles of Minneapolis snow to get back to where you were.

ICE agents wrongfully detained U.S. citizen who offered to show passport

Minneapolis city leaders say a U.S. citizen was wrongfully arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents because he looks Somali.

Mubashir, who only wanted to be identified by his first name, said in a news conference that he was on his lunch break Tuesday when a masked man running full speed tackled and pushed him into a Cedar-Riverside restaurant.

"The agent then, at one point, he never identified himself, he didn't say 'ICE stop.' I feel like I was getting assaulted, I was getting kidnapped, and that's exactly what it was," said Mubashir.

The 20-year-old said he told the agents he was a U.S. citizen and offered to show his passport.

Mubashir said he was put in a headlock by an ICE agent and put into a vehicle. A bystander video was shared of the arrest at the news conference. Mubashir was held at a federal building several miles away, Mubashir said, and was later released after being allowed to show his passport hours later.

"I asked them, 'can you take me back to where you picked me up from?' They said 'no, you have to walk in the snow,'" said Mubashir.

"I apologize that this happened to you in my city, with people wearing vests that say 'police.' That's embarrassing," Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara said to Mubashir during a press conference on Wednesday.

"Taken into custody for no reason at all, in clear violation of law and the Constitution of the United States for simply walking down the street and looking like he's Somali," said Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey.

#Papers Please

 

[Invisible Man]

ICE agents wrongfully detained U.S. citizen who offered to show passport

In preparation for scenarios like that, this list may come in handy.

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html

Unsurprisingly, Minnesota is on the duty-t0-retreat list and not on the stand-your-ground list.

 

[nikcers]

In preparation for scenarios like that, this list may come in handy.

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html

Unsurprisingly, Minnesota is on the duty-t0-retreat list and not on the stand-your-ground list.

You should always prepare yourself for war but part of the social contract of being part of a nation of people is that other people in your nation can sometimes mildly inconvenience you.

Crying because some other citizen farted near you at the grocery store or being inconvenienced by your government is a first world problem.

 

[nikcers]

So you offer to show your papers when they confront you. They refuse to look at them, take you into custody and then transfer you to a federal building several miles away. Then when they finally look at your "papers" and discover you're a US citizen, they refuse to take you back to where you were when they detained you; and you have to walk through several miles of Minneapolis snow to get back to where you were.

ICE agents wrongfully detained U.S. citizen who offered to show passport


#Papers Please

Yeah well thats a good thing and here's why its a good thing.

We are a nation of people that aren't replaceable if we have identification.

If someone else can just pretend to be you then you can be replaced and we don't want to be replaced.

 

[Voluntarist]

Yeah well thats a good thing and here's why its a good thing.

We are a nation of people that aren't replaceable if we have identification.

If someone else can just pretend to be you then you can be replaced and we don't want to be replaced.

#Idiot

 

[nikcers]

#Idiot

If you believe that then you believe someone should be free to take over your house and pretend they are you and you wont have any problem with it.

 

[Invisible Man]

You should always prepare yourself for war but part of the social contract of being part of a nation of people is that other people in your nation can sometimes mildly inconvenience you.

Crying because some other citizen farted near you at the grocery store or being inconvenienced by your government is a first world problem.

Kidnapping you is not just mildly inconveniencing you. It is an act of violence that warrants the use of force to defend yourself or another person who is the victim of this.

If someone had defended this person against this by shooting and killing the ICE agents who did that, this would have been a justified use of force. And some states recognize it as such in their laws.

 

[nikcers]

Kidnapping you is not just mildly inconveniencing you. It is an act of violence that warrants the use of force to defend yourself or another person who is the victim of this.

If someone had defended this person against this by shooting and killing the ICE agents who did that, this would have been a justified use of force. And some states recognize it as such in their laws.

It is a use of force because we pay them to use force to make sure people dont invade our country.

The cost of even having a country includes the cost of enforcing your borders.

If you don't have any borders then you don't have a country.

Billions of people that don't have access to clean water or abundant access to security or good food will literally just come into your country and take it if you dont enforce your god damn borders.

If you dont claim your house as yours then someone will just walk in and take it.

The founders of our nation had to fight off the most powerful empire in the world to claim the country as ours. We can deal with being a little mildly inconvenienced.