The image microsoft doesn't want you to see

[moostraks]

Not really sure what you mean. A multinational corporation doesn't have "citizenship" and is already accountable to any country it has a factory or office in, or with which it does business. Most of these jobs the liberal press decries as "sweatshops" are actually highly sought after in the regions where they operate. They pay well, and they are indoors. Beats the hell out of working in a rice field for 16 hours where you are subject to heavy rains, relentless sun, and all sorts of pesky bugs while performing grueling manual labor and being on your feet all day.

Have you ever done farm work? The tediousness with which one is subjected to in a factory for a product that has been formulated to a plan for functional obsolence does not compare with the reward to producing a product that serves a need. Being on a line in near 90 degrees temperatures for 15 hours a day would make me suicidal. I have done both line work and outdoor labor and hands down would not go back to a factory unless in desperation was unable to find work elsewhere.

"Citizenship" as in american corporations which may use corporate tax shelters to shield their profits yet when the shtf they are suddenly all our burden to socialize the losses or they will extract the remaining few plants left open. Let them go ahead and remove themselves to foreign soil totally. Then deal with them as the foreign entity that they are...

 

[MelissaWV]

Have you ever done farm work? The tediousness with which one is subjected to in a factory for a product that has been formulated to a plan for functional obsolence does not compare with the reward to producing a product that serves a need. Being on a line in near 90 degrees temperatures for 15 hours a day would make me suicidal. I have done both line work and outdoor labor and hands down would not go back to a factory unless in desperation was unable to find work elsewhere.

"Citizenship" as in american corporations which may use corporate tax shelters to shield their profits yet when the shtf they are suddenly all our burden to socialize the losses or they will extract the remaining few plants left open. Let them go ahead and remove themselves to foreign soil totally. Then deal with them as the foreign entity that they are...

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

 

[moostraks]

I see a lot of people are so angry at Microsoft (and other computer companies, I might add) that they're going to tap and type away at their computers in righteous anger!

Perhaps you're also the sort of people who're angry at how cruel people are, killing cows and other animals for meat... as you chomp down on a big juicy burger

You're right. We should shut up and push for these companies to expand the practice. Seems like what I hear many suggesting...

Deal with where we are at and work towards an improvement seems like the best option much like those who don't go vegan but work to improve the choices available in local farmers markets by trying to beat down the laws that make factory cattle possible but make local food sales illegal.

 

[sratiug]

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

Our farm subsidies and our free trade agreements contribute to the problems of these workers and cause massive illegal immigration to our country. By putting millions of small farmers out of business around the world we are endangering the very lives of everyone on the planet and causing mass starvation and suicide.

 

[Sentient Void]

If we pay internal taxes here to subsidize the situation as it is, that is even more "protectionist" than using a flat tariff. It is just that the "protection" is going to foreign corporations and foreign workers who pay no American taxes.

Which is why subsidies should also be cut.

 

[moostraks]

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

I said them them go there in totality and become foreign corporations. I do not care to impose laws for them but expect that if there is a certain standard to be employed for american corporations with american labor then the should standard be the same for imports or there is no reason for having them in the first place other than to offshore the labor and make local competition by small business owners next to impossible.

 

[MelissaWV]

You're right. We should shut up and push for these companies to expand the practice. Seems like what I hear many suggesting...

Deal with where we are at and work towards an improvement seems like the best option much like those who don't go vegan but work to improve the choices available in local farmers markets by trying to beat down the laws that make factory cattle possible but make local food sales illegal.

You don't seem to get it. Each time your little fingers touch a key, they are very likely supporting the labor you are typing your disdain for. You *are* supporting it, even as you talk about not supporting it. It's hypocrisy.

Improvement on whose terms, though? The economy over there sucks. People who are being paid good wages are being laid off, and people making minimum wage are unhappy with it, and people who have no jobs at all are showing up in crowds to try to get into those minimum wage jobs. Sound familiar? It's the same the world over right now, worse in some areas than in others.

It shouldn't surprise me by now that these forums are full of people who talk about the free market, and talk about peeling back regulations, but when push comes to shove want "something" done about these "immoral" people providing minimum wage jobs overseas. Most of the suggestions seem to involve more regulations, taxation, and things along those lines.

Why is it so utterly impossible to vote with one's money? Then these gals will be napping in the street (or worse) and everyone in the US can conveniently forget about them, which is obviously better than things currently are. It will, though, bring jobs back to the US (in theory) which is obviously a good thing... so long as the jobs don't get mired in all the unions and special standards and regulations to make them "acceptable." Let's just please not pretend all of this is because people are really angry about the "conditions" there. There are a lot of people around the world doing far worse, and not very many people do a thing about it.

Push back at Microsoft, but doing so from your computer is still rather silly to me.

 

[erowe1]

because it's thinly veiled slavery
because you don't have a choice if you want to work at this factory or somewhere else
because you have no opportunity to advance as an individual as you will be stamping these mice for the rest of your life

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

 

[Sentient Void]

You know me - abolish all license requirements, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, etc.

Let the free market reign and let companies compete with eachother for productive labor through wages, work conditions, benefits etc.*

All the same tired arguments I hear against abolishing these things in our country are completely unfounded...

There's no reason to believe that if minimum wage ended tomorrow, that anyone making more than the minimum wage would get a major drop in pay. That's ridiculous. This would in fact also create MANY jobs for the unskilled, poor, etc who would otherwise not be employed at all due to high minimum wage laws... As they gain skills and reputation of good work ethic and trust over time they could negotiate higher pay or get a reference going to a competitor for higher pay, etc, over time moving up the ladder of affluence. This would also greatly lower the costs of doing business everywhere, reduce costs of living, and in turn increase standard of living for everyone, ESPECIALLY the poor. The positive ripples this would send throughout the economy are tremendous.

As for children - there's no reason to believe that the vast majority of parents would send their children to work as opposed to school, considering the parent(s) make more than enough money to take care of themselves, their children and then some as is. Also, the only children going to work would be those children whose family's are in desperate need of work for money to live, which under our current system, does more harm than good by not allowing them to do so.

As for licenses, they are merely a tool of anti-competition amongst the establishment of those in business in whatever market. The market will tell people whose skilled and whose not, at according prices, and will reintroduce apprenticeships which are more effective and more economical and foster competition better than a system of stifling licenses. Consumers would most likely buy much more often from those who have a good reputation for skill also.*

Hell, I'd love to abolish all regulations, while in the process privatize everything from roads, highways, land, rivers, lat/long areas of ocean, and allow homesteading - but then again, I'm an ancap

But I digress...

 

[moostraks]

You don't seem to get it. Each time your little fingers touch a key, they are very likely supporting the labor you are typing your disdain for. You *are* supporting it, even as you talk about not supporting it. It's hypocrisy.

Improvement on whose terms, though? The economy over there sucks. People who are being paid good wages are being laid off, and people making minimum wage are unhappy with it, and people who have no jobs at all are showing up in crowds to try to get into those minimum wage jobs. Sound familiar? It's the same the world over right now, worse in some areas than in others.

It shouldn't surprise me by now that these forums are full of people who talk about the free market, and talk about peeling back regulations, but when push comes to shove want "something" done about these "immoral" people providing minimum wage jobs overseas. Most of the suggestions seem to involve more regulations, taxation, and things along those lines.

Why is it so utterly impossible to vote with one's money? Then these gals will be napping in the street (or worse) and everyone in the US can conveniently forget about them, which is obviously better than things currently are. It will, though, bring jobs back to the US (in theory) which is obviously a good thing... so long as the jobs don't get mired in all the unions and special standards and regulations to make them "acceptable." Let's just please not pretend all of this is because people are really angry about the "conditions" there. There are a lot of people around the world doing far worse, and not very many people do a thing about it.

Push back at Microsoft, but doing so from your computer is still rather silly to me.

*curious* but how would throwing out the computer improve anything when the profit has already been realized by the company? Seems to me like a good talking point but a bit ridiculous in practice, but if we practiced it then guessin' you wouldn't have to listen to our tripe, eh???

Many of us do vote with our money to the extent it is possible. You don't know me nor my purchasing decisions. Don't make assumptions.

Since you seem to know so much what the real reason is then I guess I have no need for any of those companies I support in foreign nations with fair market trade positions. Since just like being racist, anti-semetics, conspiracy theorists someone else is going to label us with union protectionist thugs if we don't adhere to your reasoning.

 

[moostraks]

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

There are other options.

http://www.fairtradefederation.org/index.php

http://www.serrv.org/AboutUs.aspx

http://www.brighthope.org/project_lists/jobcreation.php

 

[MelissaWV]

I use hyperbole a great deal, but the fact of the matter is you've already lined the evil person's pockets in these cases. My sincere apologies to anyone who might have wanted to pitch their computer out the window (though they wouldn't be able to read this) as a result. You did catch me on it, and I appreciate the levity.

It would be more accurate to say that you are not upgrading to a more ethical computer and OS and peripherals, but I'm not sure whose products those would be.

I am curious as to what companies are "fair" overseas, and what they pay. I'd also be curious as to whether those companies use any slave-labor products or components in their operations What perfect companies are these, so that I may send them a "thank you" note via slave-free carrier pigeon?

The reason I brought up voting with one's dollars is that various people in this thread have bemoaned the horrible conditions, and talked about governmental "solutions" to the problem. I don't really see those as solutions. I see them as more bandaging to help people sleep better at night.

If you're supporting companies with better practices in their overseas plants, and are consciously researching such and up to speed with which are providing living wages and tangible benefits, then that's precisely what I've been talking about for quite a long time on the forums. It's to be commended. Please realize, though, that there are a whole lot of people who are looking to slam the regulations-hammer on companies because of half-information. Hell, even calling this "slave labor" is a misnomer. They're making minimum wage, which isn't great but it certainly isn't living on the street. Actually, they're living (and eating) on site instead Most minimum wage jobs in the United States don't really give you that option that I'm aware of, do they?

As for labeling... it was done quite a bit earlier in the thread, but not pertaining to those who are against these awful companies' practices.

From the Fair Trade website itself:

Fair wages are determined by a number of factors, including the amount of time, skill, and effort involved in production, minimum and living wages in the local context, the purchasing power in a community or area, and other costs of living in the local context. Wages are determined independently from North American wage structures and are designed to provide fair compensation based on the true cost of production.

...which goes to my observation that these workers are being paid minimum wage and given optional overtime. The whole thread is much ado about nothing.

 

[erowe1]

There are other options.

http://www.fairtradefederation.org/index.php

http://www.serrv.org/AboutUs.aspx

http://www.brighthope.org/project_lists/jobcreation.php

OK. So if these employees have these other options and still choose the sweat shop, who are you to tell them they can't do that?

 

[Akus]

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

That is exactly what I mean. Word for word.

 

[jbuttell]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

You're right, not with how America is setup right now - with minimum wage laws and the various other related legislation that restrict companies. THAT in itself makes the whole system rigged to favor of foreign workers. It goes without saying that the chinese are extremely hard working people, but the playing field isn't exactly level. To make it fair (and i don't encourage this, just saying) the same laws would have to be imposed on the chinese workers as well, lifting their pay and limiting their hours.

 

[moostraks]

OK. So if these employees have these other options and still choose the sweat shop, who are you to tell them they can't do that?

The fact is the options are still few and far between...Much like things drying up in the US will result in lower living standards becoming increasingly more acceptible.

 

[erowe1]

The fact is the options are still few and far between...Much like things drying up in the US will result in lower living standards becoming increasingly more acceptible.

And the fact is also that, as few as the options are, you still want to make them even fewer.

 

[awake]

Is this a serious thread? Nice propaganda effect?

 

[Pennsylvania]

Is this a serious thread?

Yes. I think no matter where you stand on how to deal with deplorable working conditions, people should be aware of the fact that they exist, and also where they are taking place.

 

[Sentient Void]

Is this a serious thread? Nice propaganda effect?

Well - let's look at the bright side... it's a good expose as to whose a real libertarian on the forum and who isn't, despite claims.

It's very simple... libertarians should *never* be clamoring for *more government* or *more regulation* or *more taxes*. Particularly more than we have now.