Somalia

[Christian Liberty]

Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia. I honestly do not know much about Somalia. Is Somalia an ancap society, and if it is, does its system "work"?

 

[presence]

Al-Shabaab is attempting to capture the territory as an islamic state.

We just dropped bombs a few hours ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/africa/somalia-us-operation/


per capita GDP of like $200/head;

MOST Somalians are nomadic goat herders (80%)

Almost ALL Somalians are Islamic (99.8%)


Large untapped reserves of natural gas, oil, copper, and notably: uranium.


There are largely no "property rights" in much of Somalia; if you hold it by force of arms, you own it. There are no diplomas, permits, licenses, etc.

http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-af...ly-source-of-stability-/c1s3704/#.VAU3wtYewvA


But its certainly no ancap paradise... Somalia has been in a state of civil war for some time and is generally an unsafe place for "light skinned" people unless you want to end up on a ransom note.

 

[pcosmar]

Al-Shabaab is attempting to capture the territory as an islamic state.

We just dropped bombs a few hours ago.


per capita GDP of like $200/head

Yup,, it seems they attacked one of our CIA Black Bag Prisons, and got someones attention.

 

[CPUd]

Usually it is brought up by people who argue against minimal government. There is a de jure government in place, but they don't have much real power within the country. Different regions are controlled by different tribal cheftains, each with a militia holding control over resources; it is more like a collection of dictatorships than an ancap society. The UN used to send a lot more aid than what they do now, because the people who need it usually don't get it. A while back, they also had a bad habit of taking over oil tankers and other large cargo ships to hold for ransom. Not so much today, but ships still try to avoid those lanes.

 

[69360]

More of a failed state. Dictator was over thrown in the 90's or so and warlords have controlled their fiefdoms ever since. There is a central government now, but it doesn't control much more than the capital.

Define works. If you are the one behind the Ak47 it works, if you are the one with the AK pointed at you, you probably think it doesn't.

 

[presence]

There is a de jure government in place, but they don't have much real power within the country.

A "constitutional federal republic" was created in 2012; its the puppet government to end all puppet governments.

 

[TheCount]

They're a few bitcoin gold ATMs away from heaven.

 

[Shane Harris]

 

[Shane Harris]

somalia gets brought up in this great discussion as well

 

[The Free Hornet]

Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia.

Anybody can build a man out of a straw, even little children. Somalia is the name given to an entire country made out of straw! Anarcho-capitalism is the last thing these people want to discuss, thus Somalia.

 

[Brett85]

So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.

 

[TheCount]

So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.

Somalia isn't new.

Recent US military actions in Somalia*

January 7 2007 - US gunship attacks militant convoy killing 10
January 22 2007 - Reported JSOC airstrike against militants
June 1 2007 - US cruise missile strike kills up to 10 alleged militants, including reportedly from Eritrea, Yemen, UK, Sweden and US
March 3 2008 - Cruise missile attack from US ships. Six die, though not apparent target.
May 2008 - US naval-launched cruise missiles kill Aden Hashi Ayro, head of Al Shabab
September 14 2009 - US Special Forces launch helicopter raid into Somalia, killing Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, wanted in connection with Mombassa attacks
October 19 2009 - US drone reported shot down over southern Somalia
April 6 2011 - Airstrike kills an al-Shabab commander
June 23 2011 - Drone strike kills “many”, wounds two al-Shabab leaders
* The Bureau’s analysis is based on credible reports. However, given the covert nature of US operations this should be viewed as a partial list.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/06/30/somalia-targeted-in-us-drone-war/

 

[oyarde]

Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia. I honestly do not know much about Somalia. Is Somalia an ancap society, and if it is, does its system "work"?

Probably , the place was fine before the 1880's .

 

[pcosmar]

Somalia isn't new.

No,, it is not.

it goes all the way back to Bush 1.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/49438/john-r-bolton/wrong-turn-in-somalia
(authored by John fucking Bolton,, and more that a bit skewed)

 

[KCIndy]

Let me be clear for those who don't "get it." Somalia is the example pro-Statists use to taunt AnCaps, libertarians and voluntaryists when the subject of limited and/or no government is discussed.

Somalia has been embroiled in a multi-sided civil war since the 1980s. A failed state for decades now, it is largely regarded by most westerners as being a place of lawlessness and violence where the only rule is survival of the fittest. (There is some grounds on which to debate this, but that is the general perception.)

Have you seen the movie Black Hawk Down? That film was a reasonably accurate depiction of the so-called Battle of Mogadishu in 1993, when U.S. military forces where sent into Somalia to capture a strongman named Mohamed Aidid. A military convoy was ambushed, the subsequent rescue effort bogged down under heavy fire.
Casualties were heavy and the bodies of U.S. soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

The U.S. pulled forces out of the area shortly thereafter, and Somalia continued to to be "ruled" by various gang/factions in different areas.

Remember the spate of "pirate" hijackings of ships in recent years? The pirates operated out of Somalia.

So the long and short of it is that any time you hear someone suggesting all libertarians move to Somalia, they're basically hurling an insult. The idea they're trying to convey is: "See what happens if you don't have a big, strong central government? You libertarians want every place to look like Somalia. You're crazy! We need government to take care of us!"

Of course, conflating a state torn apart by a generation of factional civil wars with a community based on consent and mutual respect is utter nonsense. What's more, many of the problems plaguing Somalia can be traced directly to tyrannical overreach by an authoritarian state, which is what caused the nation to break up into civil war in the first place.

But try convincing a Statist of that.

 

[twomp]

So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.

Haven't you heard? Al Shabab is the next ISIS. If we don't take care of the problem now, they will take over the country then shortly after the entire region will fall to them. They will then set their sites on America and destroy everything we stand for. Therefore, air strikes are needed now to stop this future from happening. This intervention is not like the others. It's different this time.

 

[idiom]

Somalia has a bunch of land that isn't controlled by a 'State' proper.

If you wanted to try and build an An-Cap society and see how it fared against all-comers Somalia would be a good place to do it.

An-Caps do like to cite things like its better than average cell phone coverage and functioning economy.

Of course the phrase, 'go build the thing you are always yammering about' is called 'taunting'.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

I don't always argue with statists, but when I do I should move to Somalia.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

There is a distinction to be made between Somalia and Somaliland. Anyways, I think Peter Leeson has some interesting work on the subject. (Also, it is pretty much just a juvenile insult backed by little knowledge on their part) I'm sure if you asked these people 10 questions about Somalia / Somaliland they wouldn't know jack shit.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Thank you, that was very helpful.