So how much longer until after-birth abortions are legal?

[idiom]

All of the arguments in this thread focus on mother and fetus...

What about the father?

 

[dillo]

Except sperm are genetic clones of the father (well, clones with half the genetic material of normal cells). So, they belong to the father. The law of self-ownership would dictate the father has the right to do with these cells as he pleases. And from a scientific perspective, sperm by themselves are a dead-end; they are incapable of sustaining long-term homeostasis and cannot reproduce. Their stasis as being 'alive' is questionable.

A fetus cannot survive on its own

 

[ZenBowman]

It's not. It's instead a war on being irresponsible, and to prevent an innocent life from bearing the burden of your foolish decisions. But, evidently it's a "right" to abort a baby. It's just like you have a "right" to a physician's services, or to part of my paycheck.

I agree that abortion is immoral.

But, there is no way to prevent an innocent life from bearing the burden of your foolish decisions.

If pregnant women eat crap, their babies suffer.
If they are obese, their babies suffer.
If they are under stress, their babies suffer.
If they take alcohol, their babies suffer, potentially are handicapped.
If they take drugs, their babies suffer, potentially are handicapped.

All of these qualify as harming an innocent life.

How much power are you willing to give government in order to prevent innocent lives from being harmed?

I think when people call abortion a right they are going too far, it certainly is not a "right". But practically, without empowering the state beyond what I consider acceptable, it is unenforceable.

 

[tod evans]

An-caps would disagree with you on the well settled bit. Why should anyone have any rights over anyone else?

How in the world can several million court orders stipulating a father pay support be argued as not well settled?

Your question of rights over another can be construed many different ways...father rights over mother, mother over father, one parent or the other over fetus, both over fetus, fetus over parents....

I can't begin to guess which position you're taking?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

An-caps would disagree with you on the well settled bit. Why should anyone have any rights over anyone else?

responsibility for =/= rights over. An-caps generally agree that individuals act purposefully in their own rational self-interest (praxaeology) and that actions (including irrational ones) have consequences. The argument could be made that acting in such a way that results in a pregnancy puts a moral responsibility of some sort upon the parents.

 

[The Free Hornet]

How in the world can several million court orders stipulating a father pay support be argued as not well settled?

If it is "well settled", why is there need for court orders?

The fathers say "less", the mothers say "more", and the judge decides. However,

What if that father never wanted the baby? (us men are easily tricked into releasing sperm)
What if his support is just subsidizing the mother's crack habit?
What if the father has no rights of visitation or equal time/say in childrearing?
What if the father is not paid for the days he takes care of the children?
What if the mother has a common-law husband (and step-dad for child) but won't officially remarry/adopt due to loss of benefits?
What if the mother blew a lump sum settlement?

This is far, far, far from settled but rather a boondoggle for the legal industry.

 

[tod evans]

These are all relevant and on point questions that are targeted at the mothers behavior not the fathers responsibility to his progeny.

I'd love to discuss these issues in another thread where we could keep the subjects somewhat separated, I know I get confused and go off on tangents and I really believe that a father should be permitted equal legal authority for his progeny during gestation and it sounds as though you're wanting to discuss children who have been born.


[edit]

I'm the one who's derailed this thread by focusing on fathers (non-existent) rights to care for and protect his child while in the womb......

The OP queried about "after birth abortions"........Sorry!

If it is "well settled", why is there need for court orders?

The fathers say "less", the mothers say "more", and the judge decides. However,

What if that father never wanted the baby? (us men are easily tricked into releasing sperm)
What if his support is just subsidizing the mother's crack habit?
What if the father has no rights of visitation or equal time/say in childrearing?
What if the father is not paid for the days he takes care of the children?
What if the mother has a common-law husband (and step-dad for child) but won't officially remarry/adopt due to loss of benefits?
What if the mother blew a lump sum settlement?

This is far, far, far from settled but rather a boondoggle for the legal industry.

 

[DamianTV]

Thread isnt derailed, it was headed this direction anyway. The topic of Post Birth Abortion wasnt really intended as being legitimate in the first place.

---

You guys all forget that this is America!

You do not have ANY expecation that what you create belongs to you. You do NOT own your own body, it is property of the US Govt. You do NOT deserve to keep what you produce. You are NOT allowed to keep what you earn. You are NOT allowed to decide what goes into your body, be it Food, a Penis, or a Drug. You do NOT own that which you think you own, which is why you must pay Property Taxes on the things you are told you own. Your statements, thoughts, and expressions are the Copyrighted Property belonging to where you make such expressions. What you say on FarceBook belongs to FarceBook, not you. You do NOT own any Music or Movies that you have purchased, and are thereby NOT allowed to bequeath to your next of kin upon your death; your Music and Movies are Licensed to you, and those licenses are Non Transferrable. You are NOT allowed to Drive without permision from your State. You are NOT allowed to own a Gun without permission. You are NOT allowed to Grow a Farm. You are NOT allowed to collect Rainwater. You are NOT allowed to open, sell, and distribute Lemonade. You are NOT allowed to Peacefully Protest. You are NOT allowed to choose, worship, or express your Religion. You are NOT allowed to ride a Camel backwards next to a Highway while eating Icecream on a Sunday.

You are NOT allowed to do one single fucking thing in any of your lives without getting permission from someone else, for those things that are deemed permissible. What the hell makes anyone think that they have any say so in the matter when it comes to Pregnancy?

This is America. Good Ol' USSA. Much like the USSR prohibited private ownership of anything, what ever you think you own belongs to everyone else, thus, they all get a say so in how you wipe your ass. All accomplished by Legal Twaddlespeak, and all perpetuated by the refusal of people to mind their own fucking business.

 

[James Madison]

A fetus cannot survive on its own

Funny. I don't find 'ability to survive on its own' as a qualifyer for life in my textbook. I suppose tapeworms aren't alive. Neither are mosquitoes or ticks. For that matter, you couldn't survive on your own. You must consume something that is or was once living or you will die. That's not surviving on your own.

 

[dillo]

Funny. I don't find 'ability to survive on its own' as a qualifyer for life in my textbook. I suppose tapeworms aren't alive. Neither are mosquitoes or ticks. For that matter, you couldn't survive on your own. You must consume something that is or was once living or you will die. That's not surviving on your own.

Again you have failed to show what is and isn't living. Where is the line? If the morning after pill is murder, doesw

That make pulling out a preemptive murder? Are condoms preemptive murder? Where is the line?

 

[James Madison]

Again you have failed to show what is and isn't living. Where is the line? If the morning after pill is murder, doesw

That make pulling out a preemptive murder? Are condoms preemptive murder? Where is the line?

I just told you...

Sperm are the property of the father. When a lone sperm fertilizes an egg it ceases to be a sperm, by definition. I reserve the right to do whatever I wish to the cells in my body since they belong to me and because they are clones of the original cell (zygote) that spawned me.

I draw the line where science tells me to draw the line.

 

[dillo]

I just told you...

Sperm are the property of the father. When a lone sperm fertilizes an egg it ceases to be a sperm, by definition. I reserve the right to do whatever I wish to the cells in my body since they belong to me and because they are clones of the original cell (zygote) that spawned me.

I draw the line where science tells me to draw the line.

So yes to condoms then

 

[DamianTV]

Again you have failed to show what is and isn't living. Where is the line? If the morning after pill is murder, doesw

That make pulling out a preemptive murder? Are condoms preemptive murder? Where is the line?

Again, people fail to see that they have ZERO right to tell another human being what to do when people own their own bodies. Doesnt matter if its murder, abortion, alive, not alive, unless it is YOUR progeny, no one else gets a say so in the matter.

Why can people not understand this most simple concept of Liberty?

 

[tod evans]

In the case of a fetus, a father currently has no legal footing to protect his progeny, the survival is completely at the womans discression, abortion is her choice alone.

On the other hand if the father doesn't want his progeny to survive for whatever reason he doesn't get to make that choice either, it's left completely up to the woman.

How can right minded people accept this disparity?

Again, people fail to see that they have ZERO right to tell another human being what to do when people own their own bodies. Doesnt matter if its murder, abortion, alive, not alive, unless it is YOUR progeny, no one else gets a say so in the matter.

Why can people not understand this most simple concept of Liberty?

 

[James Madison]

So yes to condoms then

Yes to condoms being what? 'Preemptive murder'? Dafuq is that?!

Is it like pre-crime where I'm arrested for doing things I haven't done yet? Sounds like a Bush-ism.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'm all 4 aba lets start with anyone that wears a suit and tie

 

[James Madison]

In the case of a fetus, a father currently has no legal footing to protect his progeny, the survival is completely at the womans discression, abortion is her choice alone.

On the other hand if the father doesn't want his progeny to survive for whatever reason he doesn't get to make that choice either, it's left completely up to the woman.

How can right minded people accept this disparity?

Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They have full authority of the child while in the womb, but the father is forced to accept full authority once outside the womb. And these same people always want to scream about women 'owning' their bodies and, ergo, the fetus. To that I say...fine. It's yours. I'm not paying child support. You claimed total ownership of the fetus so it's your problem now, bitch.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm all 4 aba lets start with anyone that wears a suit and tie

I'd prefer to start with the Congress.

 

[DamianTV]

In the case of a fetus, a father currently has no legal footing to protect his progeny, the survival is completely at the womans discression, abortion is her choice alone.

On the other hand if the father doesn't want his progeny to survive for whatever reason he doesn't get to make that choice either, it's left completely up to the woman.

How can right minded people accept this disparity?

What I meant was that is between those two people. But for some reason, other people that arent in any way shape or form involved with either of those two claim to have more right to the womans vagina and uterus than she does.

Fathers I feel should have equal right, provided the relationship was concentual.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'd prefer to start with the Congress.

me too use a coat hanger around their neck