Should the right to bear arms be unconditional?

Owning a weapon is a responsibility. A serious responsibility.

Less than driving a car.

50,000+/- accidental Auto deaths per year as opposed to...

http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
"The accidental gun death rate has been falling since 1930 and US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 824 by 1999 according to the CDC. Note that it is extremely easy to prevent accidental gun deaths by following Jeff Cooper's Four Rules Of Gun Safety.

Click here for a free downloadable brochure that illustrates the four rules."

...And we don't need some government official reading it to us.

TMike
 
Less than driving a car.

50,000+/- accidental Auto deaths per year as opposed to...

http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
"The accidental gun death rate has been falling since 1930 and US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 824 by 1999 according to the CDC. Note that it is extremely easy to prevent accidental gun deaths by following Jeff Cooper's Four Rules Of Gun Safety.

Click here for a free downloadable brochure that illustrates the four rules."

...And we don't need some government official reading it to us.

TMike

I am not against gun ownership.

I advocate responsible gun ownership.

What's the problem?
 
No Problem, its that your previous posts oozed with an authoritarian flavor.

TMike

Note: sometimes its hard to read people without facial expressions and body language.


Sorry you got that impression.

I'd prefer to stand side by side with a shooter, rather than be shot in the back by a boof-head. :D
 
yes. yes.

If said person can't have a firearm, then maybe they don't need to be free to roam among the rest of society. when you release them from prison, they are supposed to be "free" again. If you can't trust them with a gun, then you shouldn't trust them to drive, carry a pointy stick, or use a steak knife either.
 
No Problem, its that your previous posts oozed with an authoritarian flavor.

TMike

Note: sometimes its hard to read people without facial expressions and body language.

I hunt wild pigs with mates.

You sound like a hunter.

I prefer not to be shot. Big time.

If you and I were standing side by side with a mess of boars heading our way.

I got your back.
 
Starts at Home

My dad was a big fan of responsibility.

My dad bought me my first gun (BB) about age 8.
He taught me how to use it... told me what I could shoot and where.

And... when I and shot the wrong thing my butt knew it and I didn't get to shoot for a while.

First, there is a gun in about every other house. You cannot keep children away from guns. They are naturally courious. And since you cannot "childproof" all the guns in the world, therefore, you must "gun proof" the children. The only way I know of keeping children (adults - big children) safe is to teach the proper use of things - i.e.,responsibility. (blenders, knives, tools, guns, baseball bats, etc.) Just like my dad did.

I'm following his example with my children and grandchildren. :)
 
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Don't be a firearms elitists. "I am trained therefore only I can have one" I recall the immortal words of a DEA officer "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have this gun" who then proceeds to bust a cap in his own leg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0. Of course people should have training before they use a weapon, that is why I will administer it before giving one to someone, this is my responsibility not the government. You are advocating that I be punished because there are people you don't trust with a firearm. I've heard it all before "I support the background check because my cousins brothers uncles wife is crazy and I wouldn't want her to have a gun"

translation: "I know a crazy person so I will require you to prove your innocence before you can exercise your right"

Any hoops that one must jump through, any time someone must pass something or register something or do anything that can be used to prevent them from owning or purchasing a firearm is malum prohibitum and operates under the presumption of guilt, which is upside down to our legal philosophy and thus transforming a right directly into a privilege. Not to mention unconstitutional.

example: NFA '34

The government decided to restrict machine guns from the public as a direct result of the Bonus Army March in 1933, they blamed it on gansters and knowing a ban was unconstitutional, they opened a registry. "You can still have machine guns" they said "you just have to register them and pay a tax, that's all", and even thought the tax was the equivalent to the average 6 months salary the people went along with it. "It's not illegal to own or purchase a machine gun" they said "you simply have to register it and pay your due so your right to keep and bear arms is not being infringed". What they had done was put in place a mechanism for arbritrary denial and thus transform the right into a priveledge. No big deal though right? Everyone can still get one provided they have enough money and complete the registration process. That is until 1986 when they decided that they really didn't like people having machine guns after all and thus closed the registry, no more machine guns, ever. Machine guns just went extinct. What ever is in circulation now is all there will ever be. Checkmate.

example: ex-felon 2nd amendment rights restoration

Once a felon has done his time and is released he should have all right restored. Since the government does not grant your rights it cannot take them away, however it does have the authority to imprison you once convicted in a court of law thus separating you from exercising some of them through confinement. In a twist of the philosophy of liberty, we have assumed that the government actually removes your rights once convicted requiring you to have them reinstated upon release. You actually have to ask the government to give you your rights back and convince them that they should. There is a mechanism for doing this and many choose to reinstate their voting rights, however if you try and reinstated your 2nd amendment rights and buy a gun for self-defense, you are told "I'm sorry we just don't have the resources to facilitate that procedure". You are denied your right for rest of your life because we have let them turn it into a privilege.
 
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Ideologically I would be against having the government teach firearms safety... ie incorporating it into the curriculum of public schools. Since I am a libertarian at heart I don't care for government controlled education anyway.

But, from a pragmatic standpoint, I would be in favor of working within our current crappy educational system, and teaching firearm safety in public schools. Atleast as an elective or something. The result couldn't be any worse than half the other crap they teach in public schools.
 
2 questions on gun ownership....


Do you think people convicted of violent crimes should be allowed to own or bear arms following their conviction?

Do you think a person should be allowed to carry, concealed or openly, while they are drinking alcohol? Should there be a limit like driving? If so, what should it be?


Do I think the guy who killed my childhood friend should be allowed to own a gun now that he's released from prison, NO!

It's bad enough I run across people using Cues sticks as bats and beer mugs as brass knuckles while playing darts, I don't think I would like the idea of these same people with a firearm.
 
2 questions on gun ownership....


Do you think people convicted of violent crimes should be allowed to own or bear arms following their conviction?

Do you think a person should be allowed to carry, concealed or openly, while they are drinking alcohol? Should there be a limit like driving? If so, what should it be?

Yes.

Should that same felon be allowed to carry bear spray while camping? If so, then why shouldn't he be able to defend himself from two legged creatures as well. Prison should be used to "repay" his debt (though I beleive he should actually repay with $$ and through servitude to the victim via work camps etc.) to society. After completed he should be reinstated (unless the crime is so heinous it consumes the rest of his life to repay the debt) as a free man.

yes.

If a person harms an individual - HE SHOULD PAY. Whether its with his life as a slave to the victims family, money, prison or all three. But not until the damage has been done.

Thats a tough stand, but look what we've done to ourselves by allowing government to make little rules concerning victimless crimes- they have turned into the destruction of the individual right. Destruction of freedom.

Communitarianism

Philosophical communitarianism considers classical liberalism to be ontologically and epistemologically incoherent, and opposes it on those grounds. Unlike classical liberalism, which construes communities as originating from the voluntary acts of pre-community individuals, it emphasizes the role of the community in defining and shaping individuals. Communitarians believe that the value of community is not sufficiently recognized resp. grounded in liberal theories of justice.

=========================================================

Are we Americans Communitarians? HHhhhmmm?? They have a belief in a "community right" (collective right). They think in terms of the community but not the individual. These victimless crime laws are based on a communitarian belief system. "For the common good". This Concept has been taught in our schools for over 70 years.

This belief system pervades all society - Republicans and Democrats alike. Even libertarians, Ron Paul supporters, and other like minded folks still succumb to the instilled conditioning of their youth and media programming.


TMike
 
Do I think the guy who killed my childhood friend should be allowed to own a gun now that he's released from prison, NO!

It's bad enough I run across people using Cues sticks as bats and beer mugs as brass knuckles while playing darts, I don't think I would like the idea of these same people with a firearm.

I don't know. Was it a deliberate premeditated killing or an accident?
From your position anyone that ever wrote a bad check, pissed in an alley or got caught with a roach in their ashtray should not own a gun.
That does not make much sense.
As to the other. I have been in many bars that allowed firearms. I never saw any trouble there.
I have seen those situations in places where guns were not allowed.
 
2 questions on gun ownership....


Do you think people convicted of violent crimes should be allowed to own or bear arms following their conviction?

Do you think a person should be allowed to carry, concealed or openly, while they are drinking alcohol? Should there be a limit like driving? If so, what should it be?

Yes and Yes.

It is NEVER a good idea to let the state decide who may and who may not exercise their "inalienable rights", whether it be the right to free speech, the freedom from warrentless searches and seizures, or the right to bear arms. The state has no business picking and choosing when, where and to whom those freedoms apply.
 
Don't be a firearms elitists. "I am trained therefore only I can have one" I recall the immortal words of a DEA officer "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to have this gun" who then proceeds to bust a cap in his own leg YouTube - DEA Agent Shoots Himself. Of course people should have training before they use a weapon, that is why I will administer it before giving one to someone, this is my responsibility not the government. You are advocating that I be punished because there are people you don't trust with a firearm. I've heard it all before "I support the background check because my cousins brothers uncles wife is crazy and I wouldn't want her to have a gun"

translation: "I know a crazy person so I will require you to prove your innocence before you can exercise your right"

Any hoops that one must jump through, any time someone must pass something or register something or do anything that can be used to prevent them from owning or purchasing a firearm is malum prohibitum and operates under the presumption of guilt, which is upside down to our legal philosophy and thus transforming a right directly into a privilege. Not to mention unconstitutional.

example: NFA '34

The government decided to restrict machine guns from the public as a direct result of the Bonus Army March in 1933, they blamed it on gansters and knowing a ban was unconstitutional, they opened a registry. "You can still have machine guns" they said "you just have to register them and pay a tax, that's all", and even thought the tax was the equivalent to the average 6 months salary the people went along with it. "It's not illegal to own or purchase a machine gun" they said "you simply have to register it and pay your due so your right to keep and bear arms is not being infringed". What they had done was put in place a mechanism for arbritrary denial and thus transform the right into a priveledge. No big deal though right? Everyone can still get one provided they have enough money and complete the registration process. That is until 1986 when they decided that they really didn't like people having machine guns after all and thus closed the registry, no more machine guns, ever. Machine guns just went extinct. What ever is in circulation now is all there will ever be. Checkmate.

example: ex-felon 2nd amendment rights restoration

Once a felon has done his time and is released he should have all right restored. Since the government does not grant your rights it cannot take them away, however it does have the authority to imprison you once convicted in a court of law thus separating you from exercising some of them through confinement. In a twist of the philosophy of liberty, we have assumed that the government actually removes your rights once convicted requiring you to have them reinstated upon release. You actually have to ask the government to give you your rights back and convince them that they should. There is a mechanism for doing this and many choose to reinstate their voting rights, however if you try and reinstated your 2nd amendment rights and buy a gun for self-defense, you are told "I'm sorry we just don't have the resources to facilitate that procedure". You are denied your right for rest of your life because we have let them turn it into a privilege.

Very perceptive. This is how the system really works. I had not made the connection with the Bonus March, although I was aware of movies like Scarface, which called in the closing scene for outright lobbying of the Congress for laws against machine guns.

The standard answer for the petition for restoration of firearms rights after serving sentence is "we're sorry. Congress hasn't appropriated any money to process your application. Try again next year". You'll be told this the first time you meet your Probation Officer after release from incarceration. I know from experience.

The NFA and the Omnibus Crime bill of 1986 exist side by side. The NFA prohibits possession of an unregistered, ie., untaxed, machine gun, and the '86 law refuses receipt of the tax payment required to make such an unregistered machine gun registered and legal, and thus makes possession of an mg made after 1986 absolutely illegal for anyone not falling in the categories exempted in the law (primarily cops, though not necessarily). Therefore one goes to jail for failure to pay a tax which the government refuses to accept. Marvelous system. The US Attorney's answer for such an inherent conflict in the statutes is "Don't have machine guns". You can still register short barreled rifles and shotguns and most other NFA weapons.

All of this begs the question of whence do they derive the authority to tax NFA weapons. "On the pattern of the Harrison Act" Attorney General Cummings said in 1934 before the House Ways and Means Committee, referring to the enabling legislation which initiated the War on Drugs in (I believe) 1916, using the novel approach of the Commerce Clause as authority. Remember, previously, alcohol prohibition was thought to require a Constitutional Amendment. But, one might say, arms are protected by the Second Amendment, and drugs are not. Further, if you read the preamble to the Bill of Rights, which was adopted after the Commerce Clause, the Bill of Rights "in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, [the State Conventions desired] that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added". The Second Amendment says the RTKBA "shall not be infringed". Period. If a poll tax is an infringement on the right to vote, how can a firearms tax not be an infringement on the RTKBA?

The SCOTUS, prior to the awful Heller decision, would only go so far to say in Miller (1939) that Miller's conviction under the NFA could not be definitively thrown out because no evidence had been introduced into the trial record that a short barrel shotgun, the weapon in question, was useful as a Militia weapon, in spite of the purchase of some 59,000 of them by the US Government for service in the (First) World War. The Germans even filed a complaint about their use by the US in trench warfare with the international authorities at the Hague (the Netherlands were neutral in WW1). When you get right down to it Miller is mere dicta when it comes to anything other than a short barreled shotgun. The Miller case was remanded to the original jurisdiction for further evidentiary action, which never occurred, because Miller was dead and his codefendant pled guilty and received only a minor sentence. Nevertheless, the case has been used to justify all subsequent firearms law. The Congress knew they were on thin Constitutional ice when they passed the NFA, because they inserted a provision that if one or more sections of the law were declared unconstitutional, the remainder would be unaffected.

Perhaps Justice Scalia in Heller is startled that the Second Amendment would protect machine guns because he has never read Miller. The then Solicitor General of the US, Mr. Clement, apparently has, for in the oral arguments for Heller he made this statement:

***GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, Justice Scalia, I think our principal concern based on the parts of the court of appeals' opinion that seemed to adopt a very categorical rule were with respect to machine guns, because I do think that it is difficult -- I don't want to foreclose the possibility of the government, Federal Government making the argument some day -- but I think it is more than a little difficult to say that the one arm that's not protected by the Second Amendment is that which is the standard issue armament for the National Guard, and that's what the machine gun is. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But this law didn't involve a restriction on machine guns.*** [emphasis added]

A Second Amendment case addressing these very arguments is currently before the Sixth Circuit on a habeas corpus appeal. It is Hamblen vs. the United States. You can read the current filings here. The case was denied cert by the SCOTUS in favor of Heller. Hamblen and Heller were presented to the Court at the same time in 2007. General Clement's remark above is proof that the DOJ and the Court knew exactly the conclusion this case would lead to. We are up on a habeas appeal granted by the trial judge who said:

"The Court concludes that Petitioner [Hamblen] has made a substantial showing of the denial of a constitutional right as to his Second Amendment claim, and reasonable jurists could find the Court's assessment of the constitutional claim debatable."

This case is going forward. It is not just about Guns. It is about whether the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and the lengths to which the government will go to avoid answering fundamental Constitutional questions which challenge their agenda. Readers of this post need to help spread the word and make others aware of this case.
 
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Richard A Hamblen

I knew I had heard that name somewhere. :)
I wish you the very best on your case.

I had given up all hope. A this point I will pray for the best. Past experience though,,,,
Best of luck to ya.
 
Richard A Hamblen

I knew I had heard that name somewhere. :)
I wish you the very best on your case.

I had given up all hope. A this point I will pray for the best. Past experience though,,,,
Best of luck to ya.

Hey, don't just pray, tell your friends, tell everybody!:)

I have already done the hard part, jail, and I have about 3 months left on paper, so the drill at this point (other than the remote chance of a reversal and awarding of compensation) is to exhaust all legitimate (to them) means of opposition in order to demonstrate that the system is corrupt and controlled by the enemies of Liberty. And that if the Constitution does not bind them, it doesn't bind us either, and everyone must make his or her own decision based on their own conscience.
 
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