Serious Slave Reparations Discussion Only

[Dequeant]

YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY REPARATIONS!?!?!!?

In all seriousness, I back paying reparations 100% to each and every person alive today that had to suffer from slavery ONE SINGLE FUCKING IOTA.

It makes no sense whatsoever to bill people today who have had no part of slavery to give the money to people who have never been enslaved.

 

[georgiapeach]

The rest of the idea is pure Ron Paul Message: follow the Constitution. Well, you know? I love the Constitution except for 2 things, institutionalized discrimination against women and blacks.

I can't speak for every woman but I am not the least bit offended by the way the constitution was written. The bit about women not voting is outdated, but I think it was written with the idea in mind that women would either: 1. come to an agreement with their husband and their husband's vote would speak for them both or, 2. the woman would be steamrolled by her husband into voting how he wished anyway, effectively making his vote count twice. I don't think they meant any harm by it. All in all, it was still quite progressive for its time.
Fortunately since then women have whipped ya'll into shape and you no longer drag your knuckles on the ground. Good thing we can make amendments!!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Don't know what climbed up your butt. But yes, I must be on the wrong forum. I am quite versed in Ron Paul's platform (if that's what he still has after his Pres. campaign). I was the only one defending his position on all the forums I was on up 'til the Primary and even after. While bloggers were calling him a racist, I was calmly finding common ground with minorities and teaching the Libertarian gospel.

Now I've discovered a possible solution to reaching the Democratic populace. Because I found a way to bridge the gap between the cause of Liberty and current black Democrats you are calling me "more like a Democrat"? Tell me, other than my idea (which I don't think Ron has commented on), what have I posted that is anything other than pure, Absolutist Ron? Anyway, why am I asking you?

You are the most unfriendliest lot, just as much as the apologist Lincoln worshipers. Pwning blacks? That's one I'm going to have to remember next time Ron and I talk about why his message didn't reach as many Americans as it could have. I'm done here. Oh, and I just want to say, these poor attitudes here should not reflect on Ron or his message. It must be some residual anger over paying taxes.

Ron himself doesn't represent this narrow viewpoint; he's a good man. His wants liberty and justice for all.

Well, for starters, slavery reparations.

We're usually only unfriendly to the most oblivious of the delusional loons that advocate MORE government. Get a clue.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

I wanted to say something before I exited. Didn't want to leave in such a huff. I realize that few here get it. They either didn't read what I posted, or they saw one word and stiffened into Absolutist Libertarianism. On the one hand I appreciate sticking to principles. But on the other it shows a serious lack of diplomacy to insist on "my way or the highway". To possess such moral certitude! It must be nice. Okay, here's the update: Ron Paul LOST. Why? Is it the man? No, he is a perfectly intelligent and morally upright man.

The reason Ron lost is because of education (or the lack of it). About 95% of people have been lulled into that socialistic haze. That is every Libertarian's opponent, ignorance. If people understood what freedom was they would grab it. To say that the black race is incapable of grasping freedom is in fact racist. As I said earlier, I studied the Civil War and I know a bit of what blacks went through. And I can reason out the effect on a man and his posterity who has been denied legal standing, as in Dred Scott. We had institutionalized suspension of not only constitutional rights but unalienable rights.

The harm materialized in a number of ways: crime, poverty, illness, suffering, rejection, lack of education, fear, lynching, no rights, rape, and so on. We are part time slaves as someone pointed out, because of taxes. Let's weigh them: chattle versus taxpayers? Hmmmm. My point is that you can't see the other's side. Yes the two party system is corrupt in how it beats down a third party candidate, but they have learned to compromise. That's what we need. I saw Ron on CNN today saying we need to let Wall Street fail and let that create liquidity. How many people do you think took him seriously?

I believe the only ones taking him seriously are the Free Market Republicans (not the garden variety neo-cons) and in spite of all the noise that they and their constituents are making there isn't a chance that Wall Street will bail itself out. We all know this. So Goldwater Republican values will get brushed under the carpet again because there is no one around who is both principled AND powerful in the committee to draft a diplomatically crafted compromise. I want to say I agree with Ron Paul's platform and his message (but I believe Ron's Sanctity of Life should have included scientific info on development and viability to allow compromise with Pro-Choice).

But it remains that the mainstream looked upon Ron as a "principled loon". That's what they called him. And now that's what I'm being called. I guess I should be proud to be in such good company! But my point is that you need some education. The beneficiaries of slavery need education. We the People badly need some education because the Whig lawyers of yesteryear have created an American System that has successfully anesthetized the sovereign citizens into becoming the socialized masses. Think if most blacks were up to speed with Ron's message ... do you still think they'd vote for Honest John? What if Obama's opponent was Ron Paul. Think of the level of THAT debate!

This is where we are missing the boat folks. You want to cling hard and fast to those principles and continue getting that 3% "grumpy vote" every time? Or do you want to play with the big boys? If your only reason for shooting down my proposal is because the $30k figure seems high, then you are just cheap. That price is CHEAP compared to what it will continue costing us going forward without resolution of this racial tension. Without more people on board with us there will never be a revolution and we will continue funding bigger and bigger gubment. Think. Reason. Compromise. Educate. Get on the side of reparations as a last resort even if it's untenable. Make black friends. Be frikkin' friendlier! What the hell ... nobody's reading this anymore.

I guess now I'm off to try to convince Obama to be less equivocal in his approach to the Constitution. I believe he'll do the least damage of the two remaining candidates. Can I still "write-in" Ron Paul?

 

[Conservationist]

I don't mean to be cynical but I see us bailing out Wall Street with possibly 1 Trillion dollars while doing nothing for the 44% of Americans which live in unacceptable financial circumstances ... well, it's not my idea of America.

There are far more descendants of chattel slaves than there ever were chattel slaves.

Furthermore, that 1 trillion goes toward keeping a stable economy for all of us... not just handing money to a few.

However, since I do not believe multiculturalism has historically ever worked, I would be willing to support reparations -- with repatriation.

 

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

buying votes

O.k. so we give all blacks that could have possibly had an enslaved ancestor and we give them a boat load of cash. Then they fall so in love with Ron Paul Republicans and Libertarian philosophies that they commit their votes to us for the rest of their lives. So we buy the votes of a minority and assume that they will be so stupid as to not see what we are doing and the ones who are against this idea are racist?

 

[Pericles]

...... I would be willing to support reparations -- with repatriation.

Exactly - if the complaint is that people were taken against their will to another country and made to work without wages, and that needs to be "made right" to their decendents, then our course is to reverse what happened as best we can. One time payout for that labor, and return of you and your possessions to country of origin of your ancestor. Oh, and leave your US citizenship as you go. If you want to come back, stand in line with the other immigrants.

Wonder how many takers for that deal?

 

[rwbris18]

Reparations, ARE YOU NUTS?

Since you want to "REPAIR" what had been done... Do you want to send them BACK TO AFRICA also?

What about my grandfather... who died during the civil war... freeing them.

What about Navahos, Blackfoot, Sioux, Mexicans, Puritans, Mormons, etc., etc., etc.?

WHERE WOULD THIS STOP?

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

These are great replies but maybe I wasn't making my proposal clear enough. Yes, repatriation WORKS FOR ME, as long as all of us who were made federal citizens by the 14th Amendment are repatriated back to sovereign united States Citizens as described in the Constitution up until the 14th Amendment. So Citizens would regain the primacy of individual and state sovereign Citizenship instead of being merely corporate subjects of the national government. This would correct the mistake in the Constitution that denied a particular group of men and women with a particular skin color from being equal to the founders (white males). They could as you say, in addition to offering Constitutional Citizenship, offer the option to return to Africa ... and could make the acceptance of the $30k reparation optional (any recipient could return the money voluntarily). Also, I think, a cap would be in store like in Obama's tax plan, such as: no reparations to individuals earning over $150k per year, the idea being that it is meant to help those in need now.

The idea is to popularize Ron Paul's message of returning to Constitutional government. My proposal would be the last official act of the current socialist government, settling all the issues of the past (except Indian genocide). I don't think of it as "buying votes" and I don't "assume that they will be so stupid as to not see what we are doing and the ones who are against this idea are racist". I think of it as part of a necessary education into the true meaning of the rights that were guaranteed by the Constitution (which have been slowly eroded by the Marxists in power today and for the last 140 years). I believe we have an obligation to all citizens to educate and popularize the true meaning of Liberty as embodied by Ron's message. Don't you? It's not a bribe. Whites really let down the blacks in America more than any one group did to another. Of course the corporatist Marxist traitors let us all down, but I believe the blacks were even more seriously impacted by being disenfranchised of their inherent power as individuals to govern. Not all, but clearly most. To me $106 Billion is not the real problem (comparatively speaking), but educating all Americans in the need to revolt against the 2 party political system currently in collusion to create corporate imperialism.

I wrote my congressman to object to the bailout. $700 Billion appears to be a random number and could go much higher. But we all know as students of the Free Market that government interventionism doesn't SAVE THE ECONOMY as they propagandize! Let the fraudulent businesses fail and the market will correct itself in time. They want a clean bill right now so adding Ron Paul's philosophy won't be incorporated until there is a majority of us in power, or until a Libertarian is elected to the Presidency. So until then, I encourage you to write YOUR Representative and oppose the bailout: this is the very reason the Great Depression was so prolonged. Of course I see the conflict between my reparations idea and the absolute theory of Libertarian ideals. However, it acknowledges and corrects a deliberate wrong done by the flawed, all-too-human founders of those ideals (and I think admission of the truth is very Libertarian). They are OUR founders, not the Neo-Cons or the Left Wing. These parties have forsaken moral superiority and we should grab it ("My Friends")! Can you imagine if word got out that we supported minorities rights as equal to the founders sovereign rights? The Dems would go ape-shit. And if we take the time to TEACH Ron's message of Free Market Prosperity to all of them, the idea would catch fire and spread across this land. Republicans would know what to do. There would be no more allegiance to the current corporatist politic and we could have a majority demographic!

But we have to win them over first.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Reparations, ARE YOU NUTS?

Since you want to "REPAIR" what had been done... Do you want to send them BACK TO AFRICA also?

What about my grandfather... who died during the civil war... freeing them.

What about Navahos, Blackfoot, Sioux, Mexicans, Puritans, Mormons, etc., etc., etc.?

WHERE WOULD THIS STOP?

I appreciate the notion of "where will this stop"? And it should be asked. I don't have that answer. I'm asking the question if we want to grow our base. I'm saying that our demographic is currently a bunch of "nutjobs who wear tin-foil hats". That's how we are looked at by the mainstream! I vehemently disagree with the Republican platform today. Ron Paul shouldn't be associated with them anymore. And I'm mad as hell at Democrats for this Bush Administration attempt to bailout rich frauds! But these two tents are much bigger than we will ever be unless we start bringing in more voters. I'm saying, let's actually address some of the problems of people, races, and cultures and welcome them into our tent. I think your grandfather was a hero by freeing slaves and history should remember his valiant efforts. So was my grandfather, Robert E. Lee, when he freed his slaves before going off to defend Virginia from the Leviathan. We have the opportunity to make this a BIG tent, not just the 3 percenter that it is now.

 

[RockEnds]

Well, damn those old white guys for lighting the lamp of liberty and leaving it up to those who came after them to make sure the flame got brighter. What kind of candy and treats shall we serve to all the other groups to win their votes and make reparations for the failure of our ancestors?

Some of the native peoples did fight for their freedom and were granted treaties that were dishonored. If you're going to start somewhere, maybe you should start there.

 

[revolutionman]

find me a surviving slave, and his surviving owner, and i will greenlight reparations.

 

[Conservationist]

This would correct the mistake in the Constitution that denied a particular group of men and women with a particular skin color from being equal to the founders (white males).

You're scientifically incorrect there.

Race is more than skin color.

* The Race FAQ
* Race and Intelligence
* IQ and the Wealth of Nations

There's a lot more at stake than skin color.

There are also people like me who speak a simple historical truth: multiculturalism doesn't work.

 

[hope7134]

Hey, Cherokee over here! Anybody hear about the trail of tears? What about the sioux slaughtered in the west?

Slavery? Doesn't that require a master and a slave? Should the black race then become a master and the white race become the slave? Hey, hey wait a minute that's what's happening now. Isn't that a government program, called affirmative action? Isn't it called welfare? Isn't it called lowering college test scores?

Hey, hey wait a minute what about the mexicans who were driven out of Texan? I got an idea, why don't all the white men leave this country and leave it to us cherokee, give Texas back to Mexico, give California back to Mexico and send all the blacks back to the homeland of Africa? There you go reparations for everybody!

Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech.

How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Thanks for the somewhat serious replies to this. This is so left field I didn't have any real expectations, just respect. The type of respect I would expect we show to Ron.

I don't know how to answer some of these responses, but I feel there is a problem that is not being addressed. Second to the inequality issue is politics and wanting to help out the Libertarian dream of liberty for all. To this post, all I can say is that I don't quite understand:

"You're scientifically incorrect there. Race is more than skin color. There's a lot more at stake than skin color. There are also people like me who speak a simple historical truth: multiculturalism doesn't work.

Look I am aware that total absorption doesn't happen, nor should it. Even the North and the South still don't get along! On some forums I dare not admit my Southern heritage lest I be called a neo-confederate (whatever that means - I think they are saying I'm kkk?). But I don't believe people of the Enlightenment were scientifically astute enough for a scientific question on the races. Nor should that be a question with regard to inalienable rights guaranteed by a constitution. Please elaborate.

Hey, Cherokee over here! Anybody hear about the trail of tears? What about the sioux slaughtered in the west?

Slavery? Doesn't that require a master and a slave? Should the black race then become a master and the white race become the slave? Hey, hey wait a minute that's what's happening now. Isn't that a government program, called affirmative action? Isn't it called welfare? Isn't it called lowering college test scores?

Hey, hey wait a minute what about the mexicans who were driven out of Texan? I got an idea, why don't all the white men leave this country and leave it to us cherokee, give Texas back to Mexico, give California back to Mexico and send all the blacks back to the homeland of Africa? There you go reparations for everybody!

Or we could just restore the US Constitution and stop trying to be superior to each other (you know the master/slave thing) and begin to act like one people, with one goal: All men being created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness kinda stuff. You know kinda like the Ron Paul message, where one class, one race, one people isn't responsible for the care, upkeep or provision of another. You know kinda like the Martin Luther King: I have a dream speech.

How about that? Doesn't that sound like the plan?

Alright, Mexico is neither a state nor a territory of the U.S. so I don't know why you would use that example for anything more than a rejection of imperialism. And I said I don't know what to do about the Indian genocide. So I'll just skip to the last point about restoring the Constitution. Who is gonna do that? Bob Barr (L)? John McCain (R)? They are no Ron Paul. Ron is the best man that was a candidate for President I've ever seen in my life. He really has no personal failings despite his humble self-deprecation. Yet, the message and the man are still not enough in this day and age of glossy TV personalities. Ideologues spouting absolutism are just not attractive to the masses (voters).

Look, Republicans can't even agree on if a Bailout is needed. Democrats can't agree on if the Surge worked. Now is the time to strike. Open up the platform to more experimental ideas the way the founders did. No, I don't want my kids to be denied the college of their choice because a quota system preferred less-qualified applicants. We need a justifiable reason to end welfare and quotas here but also Marxism and Fascism and I don't see a lot of help from you guys. I'm proposing thinking out of the box for the sake of getting Ron's message to catch on with a majority. You guys are acting like the enemy is dark skin. It's socialism, and that is going to lead to globalization and ultimately no more U.S.

The longer our prosperity is tied up in wars and Chinese Credit Cards and a paper dollar that's not even worth 4 cents we'll never be able to create the kind of wealth needed to liberate people from poverty and attend to the Pursuit of Happiness. Maybe if the House Republicans (and Ron) can win the day, it will be the proof the Free Market needs to let the economy recover naturally. If not, I fear we all may be learning to speak Chinese rather soon. Tick tock!

 

[Time for Change]

Ok then I'll fall in line with your line of thought if:

My family also gets reparations for being forced to work in the coal mines and having paychecks held hostage (never delivered) because all the basic necessities were sold and price controlled by the company owned store.
Micro Socialism system in and of itself.

That means I get money too.

This is so off the wall, I can’t believe it.
One race always cries inequality, states their wants and is afforded what they wish.
Once achieved it suddenly becomes unfair and is not enough, they now want MORE.
It does not end.

I ma not a racist, but being forced to pay for something my family has absolutely nothing to do with might push me in that direction.

Where is the logic in caving in to a spoiled child, giving them everything they want just because they act out?
What good does it do to hand money to people of one race after having stolen it from the earnings of another?
That doesn't foster any ill will?
Can you not comprehend that?

It is the government stealing money from one to give it to another.
Would you be ok with your neighbor coming in to your home and taking money because he says you owe him for a broken window, which was actually broken by a kid 2 blocks away 85 years ago?
You had nothing to do with that, nor do the people currently living in the original offender's home.

The logic in your thoughts is flawed and badly so.
To hand money over so these people can "Get Mine" is no solution to any perceived problem.
It sets up the next rant and demand for additional "reparations".

If a person does not work to get ahead they cannot appreciate the money that results from the work,
It has no value.
Look at a trust fund kid...they spend like the wind with no regard for the effort initially put forth to make that money...then they stomp their feet and demand more.
Sound familiar?

Preferential Job placement regardless of qualifications, job security regardless of performance, protected social status based on skin color, free healthcare, free food, free housing, NO REQUIREMENT TO WORK IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO WORK, free education...all of this is NOT available to my children.
If I lose my job, they go hungry because they are NOT black.

Now we want to give out bonuses?

What is wrong with this country?
The land of opportunity has been taken hostage.
Everyone wants to consume and nothing more?

If equality is truly the end results...work just as hard to get ahead...just like everyone else, with no special programs, no favors.
Work your ass up the ladder just like everyone else.

Get out troll.

 

[Pete]

Water under the bridge, Newbee. What are you going to do, redress every human grievance back to when Cain killed Abel?

Lesson #1 if you are going to subscribe to Ron Paul's philosophy: Collectivism only causes division. What matters are the rights of the individual.

This idea of reparations is collectivist, as a large victim group has been identified for special treatment.

Something to watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6276223916862531753&ei=TwfiSKHYMZSM-QGurNn1Dw

 

[Dieseler]

From what I gather from this video, you've already had your reparations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
To bad the majority were so fucking stupid they couldn't save up for a down payment (on a home they could afford) and ask for a fixed rate loan. Your reparation has come and gone.
You squandered it unknowingly all the while destroying a nation.
What would you have us give you now?
Would you wish for my blood now as well?
I will not give it freely.

 

[hope7134]

Point is RonPaulNewbee, where do people finally stop demanding for injustices that were never done to them? Sure my family was driven in the trail of tears from Tennessee to Oklahoma, but what do I do now? Hold the entire country responsible? Or do we finally put our differences behind us and come together as one nation, instead of many different nations-divided? Gotta, stop living in the past and start building a future. One of the main problems with the bailout, the lack of fair education for all people, the ability for all to achieve in a fair market, is this I owe you, you owe me crap. The truth is, everybody owes everybody else. Get over it and move forward. This crap is tearing this country apart and divided we fall. United we stand. This stuff is propaganda, by the elite who want votes and you have bought into it. Either wake up or go to the dem sites. You will find a lot of people to agree with you there.

What Ron Paul wants is freedom for all people to be responsible for their own failures and successes, without making other people responsible. It's called responsibility, not dependence on a government that right now is failing everyone.

There's no free rides and no safety nets in life, everyone pays for their right to be!And no one escapes. Now if we lived in the land of Oz with the yellow brick road, it might be different. But, this ain't Oz and there ain't no good witch of the North to take care of everything. People need to grow up and be responsible for themselves and stop whining over the past. But, if they won't then let's all whine, because all of us have reasons to do so.

Hey, I'm with you Truth Warrior, I'm outta here!

 

[lucius]

They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America
- Michael Hoffman II
Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/432...of_the_Enslavement_of_Whites_in_Early_America

Mr. Hoffman presents a rough outline of the history of the enslavement of whites in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, the Carribean and finally in America from Roman times to the begining of the 20th century. Documented are such details as:

-Slavery in ancient Greece and attitudes towards slaves there
-Arab traffic in white slave to the Middle East
-The Vikings' massive involvement in the slave trade during the middle ages
-White slavery and ethnic-cleansing in Ireland and Barbados under Oliver Cromwell
-Kidnapping of whites in Britain to bring to the Americas
-Child labor and gross working conditions in the mines and factories in America and Britain during the industrial revoloution.
-One of the most disturbing events documented here: the use of "human brooms" as chimney sweeps in England during the 1800's. These might be able to claim the worst status. The orphans who had to climb up chimneys filled with toxic dirt and soot weren't even paid to do so, they were forced to do that work and then BEG for a living.
-White slavery and white slave trade in colonial America. These whites were treated as more expendable then the African slaves because the slave ships had to go out of their way to pick up Africans.
-"Redneck," because whites had to work out in the fields in the sun so their skin would get tanned and burned.
-"Hillbilly," because when they were freed or escaped, the slaves had nowhere to live except in remote places in the backwoods and especially APPALACIA.
-The race politics presented here explain and elucidate the animostiy between blacks, lower class whites and the white slave-and-plantation owning aristocracy in the South.
-This one's the kicker: the word SLAVE actually comes from SLAV, the white peoples of Eastern Europe who were often raided and held in bondage by invaders.

This book is well worth getting a hand on and reading, because it proves that slavery is a universal condition that has been practiced against all races and nations of people, even against those traditionally portrayed (i.e. Anglo Saxons/whites) as being the slavemasters and oppressors.