Serious Slave Reparations Discussion Only

[Time for Change]

Good post...but you need to look up the redneck thing.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3732/is_200601/ai_n17174894/pg_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
That was a bandanna marking during the coal miners revolting (the Battle of Blair Mountain ) to identify who you were fighting with.
Government intervened there too.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Well this was an interesting thought experiment. I'd hoped to build a bridge to black people, who recognize the position our founders put them in (light of liberty, yes for whites). It would be nice if Ron Paul's followers weren't so cheap, were more generous, weren't so absolutist and more statesmanlike. Oh well, I'll keep looking for those who actually want Ron's message to reach a wider audience. Surely not finding them here. But thanks for playing!

They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America
- Michael Hoffman II
Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/432...of_the_Enslavement_of_Whites_in_Early_America

Mr. Hoffman presents a rough outline of the history of the enslavement of whites in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, the Carribean and finally in America from Roman times to the begining of the 20th century. Documented are such details as:

-Slavery in ancient Greece and attitudes towards slaves there
-Arab traffic in white slave to the Middle East
-The Vikings' massive involvement in the slave trade during the middle ages
-White slavery and ethnic-cleansing in Ireland and Barbados under Oliver Cromwell
-Kidnapping of whites in Britain to bring to the Americas
-Child labor and gross working conditions in the mines and factories in America and Britain during the industrial revoloution.
-One of the most disturbing events documented here: the use of "human brooms" as chimney sweeps in England during the 1800's. These might be able to claim the worst status. The orphans who had to climb up chimneys filled with toxic dirt and soot weren't even paid to do so, they were forced to do that work and then BEG for a living.
-White slavery and white slave trade in colonial America. These whites were treated as more expendable then the African slaves because the slave ships had to go out of their way to pick up Africans.
-"Redneck," because whites had to work out in the fields in the sun so their skin would get tanned and burned.
-"Hillbilly," because when they were freed or escaped, the slaves had nowhere to live except in remote places in the backwoods and especially APPALACIA.
-The race politics presented here explain and elucidate the animostiy between blacks, lower class whites and the white slave-and-plantation owning aristocracy in the South.
-This one's the kicker: the word SLAVE actually comes from SLAV, the white peoples of Eastern Europe who were often raided and held in bondage by invaders.

This book is well worth getting a hand on and reading, because it proves that slavery is a universal condition that has been practiced against all races and nations of people, even against those traditionally portrayed (i.e. Anglo Saxons/whites) as being the slavemasters and oppressors.

I realize that whites have been slaves in this country but they were never to the extent that blacks were. I even said in one of my first posts, "I believe there is a reason whites enslaved blacks that is from the dawn of history." There's shit that goes back before recorded time. But nobody ever seemed to be able to debate the fact that all races and cultures benefited from black slaves and I find that rather blind. All the best!

 

[TurtleBurger]

If I inherited money or property that was generated on the backs of slaves, I would feel responsible to find the heirs of those slaves and pay them the back-wages they were due. Most white Americans aren't in that situation though. My ancestors came to America after the 1860s and never owned any slaves. Nothing I own today has anything to do with slavery, so there is no reason I should be on the hook for reparations.

 

[Pete]

You have a future in Congress, Newbee.

 

[lucius]

Well this was an interesting thought experiment...

No, I see this argument for what it is: a subtle variation of divide et imperium, more of our social engineering for control purposes for all Americans. I USED no one 200 years ago NOR did you; read 'Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism' (ISBN: 0807842532) if you wish to understand the mechanics of exploiting deeply implanted false-guilts.

Also, how much more HELP can African-Americans STAND from Leviathan's REAL policy agenda? The results of the "Great Society", well, are not that great...

Listen to their words:

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Not just in America either, look at sub-Sahara population projections (almost a complete depopulation in 66 years)...'Utopean Dreams' are always psychotic.

 

[Pete]

They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America
- Michael Hoffman II
Details for this torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/432...of_the_Enslavement_of_Whites_in_Early_America

I happened to download this a couple of days ago while looking for 'Social Genocide', a movie about Argentina's 2001 economic meltdown. It came up on the search and looked interesting. It was. Though it was obvious that the author's main purpose was to oppose reparations, it was well researched and documented with footnotes.

Some things I found interesting:

• It explains our sizable white underclass. Many came to the US as 'convicts', similar to Australia. Very often, these convicts committed minor crimes associated with being desperately poor (e.g., poaching, shoplifting, vagrancy). Honestly, I don't think I'll ever use the expression 'white trash' again.
• Black slaves came to be preferred over white slaves because they were regarded as 'more docile'. I suspect their 'docility' was resignation because they would not blend into the surrounding population, due to skin color, if they were to escape.
• Appalachia and the South were heavily populated by runaway and freed white slaves. To me, this gave a new meaning to the old expression, "head for the hills".
• Ben Franklin came very close to being mistakenly arrested as a runaway slave. This was mentioned in a biography I read.
• Robert Louis Stevenson's book, 'Kidnapped' is based on a true story of an upper-class boy sold into slavery by unscrupulous relatives. The word 'kidnapped' came from predators who would snatch children for export as slaves.
• The book discusses how the factory systems of the Industrial Revolution grew out of the poorhouse and workhouse systems of earlier times. I don't agree with the author that this was the same as slavery, but it was interesting nonetheless.
• The story of white slavery is submerged because TPTB don't really want it to be known that they were capable of enslaving anybody, not just blacks.

 

[lucius]

...looking for 'Social Genocide'...

Did you find an active download? I have been looking for this and the 'The Dignity of the Nobodies', both by Fernando Solanas ('Memoria Del Saquere' & 'La Dignidad de los Nadies'). thx

 

[Truth Warrior]

no, i see this argument for what it is: A subtle variation of divide et imperium, more of our social engineering for control purposes for all americans. I used no one 200 years ago nor did you; read 'thought reform and the psychology of totalism' (isbn: 0807842532) if you wish to understand the mechanics of exploiting deeply implanted false-guilts.

Also, how much more help can african-americans stand from leviathan's real policy agenda? The results of the "great society", well, are not that great...

Listen to their words:

"we should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the negro is through a religious appeal. we don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

margaret sanger's december 19, 1939 letter to dr. Clarence gamble, 255 adams street, milton, massachusetts. Original source: Sophia smith collection, smith college, north hampton, massachusetts. Also described in linda gordon's woman's body, woman's right: A social history of birth control in america. New york: Grossman publishers, 1976.

Not just in america either, look at sub-sahara population projections (almost a complete depopulation in 66 years)...'utopean dreams' are always psychotic.

qft!

 

[Pete]

Just bought Memoria del Saqueo on eBay, about $34. The guy had 14 copies.

This is one of the best movies I've ever seen. YouTube link for anyone interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

If I inherited money or property that was generated on the backs of slaves, I would feel responsible to find the heirs of those slaves and pay them the back-wages they were due. Most white Americans aren't in that situation though. My ancestors came to America after the 1860s and never owned any slaves. Nothing I own today has anything to do with slavery, so there is no reason I should be on the hook for reparations.

TurtleBurger, I officially declare you "off the hook"!

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

You have a future in Congress, Newbee.

I've thought about it, Pete, but it is problematic. First I don't have a background in law. Second I'd have to get some bonafides in local government and man ... talk about boring! And petty ... I know because I've participated in a little bit (public hearings) and I'd just be too frustrated.

But hearing Ron Paul on TV yesterday and people like Difazio and Kaptur as they argued on the House floor: that was fantastic! I think about how much I would need to learn about economics but then hearing one of those bozos (not Difazio/Kaptur) describe how they never wanted to have to vote on this sort of thing but that they are going to anyway ... all I can think of is how much better I would be at that job than them.

Ron got asked if most of them even understood the economic problem in front of them and he said NO. What a hoot! Sublime theater! After hearing how downtrodden most of them were, I couldn't help wonder if there was some sort of strong arm tactic used on them. Blackmail. One lady hinted at it by saying the only way she escaped the pressure was by getting her NAY out early. Anybody heard about such strong arm tactics?

And finally, despite the call of liberty, I wonder how much good I could even do in a Marxist machine as this has become. I'm too depressed right now to even think about it. Thomas Paine, "fatigue" is right! Thanks for the vote ... of confidence, anyway, Pete. [I'm not really a newbee, btw]

 

[hope7134]

Newbie here's something for you from a southern cherokee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8

or maybe you would take a lesson from Martin Luther King, who was against welfare but wanted our country to be fair to all men, women and children. He was against white moderates who wouldn't see that the system of handouts, crippled the minority classes. You would do well to study his views, as he was the most powerful leader of the balck race ever. By the way he was in jail for fighting against the very believes you have, when he wrote this letter. White moderates stood in his way. If you want to fight for the balck race, then fight like Ron Paul for their Constitutional freedoms. Stop trying to make the black race be more dependent on government handouts. They will never be free as long as people like you make them dependents of a government which is doomed to fail them. My question to you is: "Are you a democrat come here to spread the democrat propaganda? Because it is obvious you are not a conservative republican constitutionalist like Ron Paul. Why are you on this forum?

http://members.aol.com/klove01/jailltr.htm

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.

 

[Dieseler]

I guess maybe I was wrong about this. Between Newbees commentary and this great documentary I found while researching slavery and reparations I'm now leaning towards doing whats right.
If reparations were carried out in the manner described in this documentary it could quite possibly save our economy.
Visit this link for the plan.
http://www.jibjab.com/view/140957

 

[Dieseler]

I guess maybe I was wrong about this. Between Newbees commentary and this great documentary I found while researching slavery and reparations I'm now leaning towards doing whats right.
If reparations were carried out in the manner described in this documentary it could quite possibly save our economy.
Visit this link for the plan.
http://www.jibjab.com/view/140957

This would be a best case scenario to say the least.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Please read my actual words instead of making shit up!

First, Dielseler, that was exactly what I had in mind. Chuck Taylor's theatrical report was exactly what I hope for! I didn't propose 1tn dollars, though. But hey, who knows?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8

or maybe you would take a lesson from Martin Luther King, who was against welfare but wanted our country to be fair to all men, women and children. He was against white moderates who wouldn't see that the system of handouts, crippled the minority classes. You would do well to study his views, as he was the most powerful leader of the balck race ever. By the way he was in jail for fighting against the very believes you have, when he wrote this letter. White moderates stood in his way. If you want to fight for the balck race, then fight like Ron Paul for their Constitutional freedoms. Stop trying to make the black race be more dependent on government handouts. They will never be free as long as people like you make them dependents of a government which is doomed to fail them. My question to you is: "Are you a democrat come here to spread the democrat propaganda? Because it is obvious you are not a conservative republican constitutionalist like Ron Paul. Why are you on this forum?

http://members.aol.com/klove01/jailltr.htm

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.

Hope, you have a good heart, so I want to answer your direct question directly. You asked what I was doing here and questioned my cred basically. While I disagree with personalizing debates (you know what they say about great minds), I will answer you despite the fact that you have neglected to read my actual proposal which was 100% Paul. Again, I reiterate (is that redundant?) that I am for Ron's plan of returning to constitutional government. However, as you well know, our constitution has been twisted inside and out that it is no longer recognizable. They even acknowledge that in the MSM! Slavery however was never dealt with properly in the constitution. I propose that the 13th through 16th Amendments be revoked and rewritten properly. But to set your worries aside I will tell you exactly where I come from.

• I believe that slavery was never addressed properly, nor was the black race by being denied Citizenship and I think it had something to do with Christianity being relied upon for a justification of it. I don't believe the founders were bad men because of this, but they had their hands tied from the fact that the colonists had an overwhelming economic interest in southern agriculture and to create a Union they needed the South on board.
  
• I believe that two issues collided in 1860, states rights and partisanship based on preserving slavery as a constitutional practice: the South saw that it would be marginalized politically if new states were added but were not allowed to voluntarily employ slavery as guaranteed in the Constitution. So Lincoln started a war between American Citizens and what resulted was the destruction of our constitutional society by martial law, and fraudulent taxation to pay for unending war and ballooning government.
  
• Additionally, the Amendments that resulted (unconstitutionally, btw) created a new second class citizen and that is just how Americans have been treated since. We have a Centralized Government to fear now, and the seeds were planted for a central bank, standing armies, socialism (more like communism since last weekend) and a general loss of liberty and pursuit of happiness due to our government depriving We the People of their gold.
  
• I also believe that Roosevelt did us no favors by the confiscation of gold, the New Deal, Social Security, and a host of unneeded policies that led to an unnecessary expansion of the Great Depression. His policies were merely extensions of Hoover's failed policies which were incorrectly credited to laissez-faire economics. Yet history falsely records Hoover as an example of (so-called) "failed" Free Market ideology, Roosevelt as the great president who rescued the people from the Great Depression, and Lincoln as the martyred greatest president in history who saved the country and freed the slaves.
  
• Shall I go on? The Great Society, the five recent American wars fought without a declaration of war, the unseemly expansion of debt by president after president, not to mention the obscene amount of power consolidated in the Chief Executive. Now we have a Commander in Chief instead of a President with power checked by the Congress and the Courts. The Military Commissions Act, Nation-building as official Army Policy, No Child Left Behind and the Edumacation Department which will not teach the correct version of history I just laid out above.
  
• I mention the Dept. of Edumacation because I believe that it, like just about every government policy since the Civil War, is a fraud on the American People. The real purpose for that department of our federal government is to dumb down the populace. I think we need to return to a constitutional-sized government just as Ron Paul suggests. I DON'T think we need to be spending $700 trillion dollars every weekend to buy toxic assets that are worthless and have the Fed cut interest rates!

If you think that what I stated above significantly diverges from Ron Paul's philosophy of government, I will leave this forum never to return. But I strongly disagree with the notion that you can attack me personally for having an idea that I think will help the Libertarian cause. It's just an idea! You may not think it consistent with Ron Paul. But I think if done properly, as the final act of big government before returning to constitutional government, it could once and for all make peace with a disenfranchised race of Americans.

Finally, I think you used your MLK quote selectively. I agree with his take on the "white moderate, who is more devoted to order than to justice". I think this has been the approach of the Courts: political expediency. I am FOR justice, as described by Marbury in "Whatever Happened to Justice?" By delaying reparations, the government has colluded with the white race which believes it doesn't owe anything to anybody, especially welfare recipients. My proposal eliminates Welfare! But you selectively failed to read that. I would recommend you read what I've actually proposed instead of questioning my loyalty, then get back to me. I believe, like King, that we should exert tireless effort to be co-workers with God. (see below).

I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas [who] writes: "Any Christian knows that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has..." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely rational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will... Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co-workers with God." -King

 

[unreconstructed1]

Newbee,

I am a white man born of Southern blood, third generation removed ancestor of Confederate Soldiers. Do I owe anybody anything? NO.

first of all, as far as reparations go. Yes, a substantial part of America was built on the backs of Slave labor. What everyone seems to forget in this argument is that the entire deal honestly worked out in trade. the living descendants of those slaves have the opportunity to live much better lives because of their ancestors. they have the ability to get educated, to the same freedoms as everyone else. Had their ancestors not been brought over here, they would have been born on the Ivory Coast, if at all. the entire region, not to mention the entire continent is a powder Keg. Governments change hands weekly, depending upon who has the most guns, there is no freedom of speech, no freedom to assemble, few public schools, in short.... nothing. On top of that, Africa is currently undergoing an AIDS epidemic of black plague porportions, and new plagues are popping up all the time. extreme poverty, genocide, cannibalism, and even slavery are all parts of modern day Africa. If you ask me, they should honor their ancestors for their tribulations rather than attempt to leech off of their suffering in order to make a quick buck.

As far as the institution itself goes:
Slavery wasnt what most people have in mind. first, all of those slaves weren't captured along the coast while they were out fishing, they were bought and paid for From African Chiefs. they were considered property there as well. African Tribal traditions taught that when one tribe went to war with another tribe, the conquered tribe was taken into slavery by the victorious tribe. eventually, African tribal elders had been selling their tribesman into servitude to the Barbary pirates for quite some time before the Triangle trade became established, they just began selling them to Europeans as well.

Slavery in the early colonies wasn't alifetime servitude type of deal either. Black slaves were just like any other indentured Servants, they could work extra to pay off what was owed of them, and then they had their freedom. Such was the case with ANthony Johnson. Johnsons case isn't talked about very much when the debate about slavery begins to go, because of the circumstances surrounding his case.

Johnson ( at the time known only as "Antonio")was one of the 20 original Africans brought to Jamestown. Johnson was a slave. he worked his way out of slavery and eventually managed to buy his own plot of land, settle down with a wife 4 children and an African Slave of his own. A white neighbor tried to steal Johnsons slave, and he took this person to court. the court ruled in his favor, and some sources have stated that this case is the first one to set legal precedent for lifetime generational slavery in America. Africans not only brought the institution upon themselves, they even fought to keep it in American courts.

now on a side note. As I said earlier, I am the third generation removed descendent of Confederate soldiers. during Lincolns unconstitutional war, several of his Generals, most notably Sherman and Sheridan waged war using what would be considered today "scorched Earth campaigns". although modern historians attempt to downplay his destruction of the South, the bottom line is Federal troops raided, pillaged, and plundered their way through the South, and a lot of people lost everything they ad due to these actions. that war devastated the Southern economy, and left Southern life in shambles. afterwards, they waged a different type of war, Reconstruction. many in the South, whites included, were basically left as second class citizens due to the direct action of the federal government. If you want to talk reparations, where is ours?

we aren't owed anything and neither is anyone else.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Newbee,

I am a white man born of Southern blood, third generation removed ancestor of Confederate Soldiers. Do I owe anybody anything? NO....

we aren't owed anything and neither is anyone else.

That was a pretty decent reply. Thanks for presenting your history as well as your opinion! While I agree with your take on the history of blacks in America, and especially your take on how the war drove Dixie down, I just have a slightly different take on the outcome. Yes, I totally agree that the result of the Reconstruction was horrendous. As I mentioned before, my family, the Lees, ended up in Georgia and I therefore grew up in Atlanta. My grandfather was a general in the CSA. But that has not led me to have "white guilt" as one has claimed. To the contrary! If anything, it has given me a keener awareness of what is right and wrong, and I have come to the conclusion he did as well as Davis and Stephens about the aims of protecting constitutional government in the face of frauds like Lincoln and others to come who would influence future presidents like our dear leader Bush, the "soft" fascist. In short, the South was right. But for the worst of the conditions of slavery, there is little that can pay that back. My idea of $106 Billion came in the wake of a $700 Billion war, a $700 bailout (unreported in MSM) and a $840 Billion Wall Street Bailout, not to mention the various $25 Billion and $100 Billion cheques issued by the Treasury and Fed recently. While I don't agree with those bailouts either, in that light, $106 as an apology is just that: an apology. It doesn't really represent a leg up for anyone. But it is closer to dealing with the issue than any affirmative action. Frankly, I would have rather had the federal government invest $106 Billion in reparations than the $2.2 Trillion that it just did on further screwing up the economy and the constitution. Again, thanks for thoughtful reply and I agree with most of your points, I just don't think the country has adequately dealt with this issue yet. And my political point was: wouldn't it be nice to spread Ron's message about liberty to those of color, those who mostly believe that Libertarians are racist (because of partisan lies)? It is time, I believe, for political solidarity between white and black in Libertarianism: we are on the same side, we are slaves. But whites will never hold that kind of street cred as long as blacks can still say: "you have no idea what slavery is about." I fear that they would still be right.

 

[truelies]

I would rather see the entire Country burned to the ground than to see even ONE devalued/inflated/fiat money paid in so called reparations.

 

[xd9fan]

is this thread for real????

maybe the country if they tax us more can protect us from life itself.

get off the crack people,,,wake up your country is broke.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

I would rather see the entire Country burned to the ground than to see even ONE devalued/inflated/fiat money paid in so called reparations.

Actually I just found out it's happening (if Barack Obama becomes president). He calls it a stimulus package and apparently those who file their tax returns but who don't qualify for taxes will get "a check" like the other 95%. Now only if he'd call it reparations we could just be over it once and for all.