Serious Slave Reparations Discussion Only

[georgiapeach]

We can however reimburse each African-American living in the Civil War-era states of the U.S. $30,000. It's not much, but it is enough for an education, to start a business, invest or take a vacation.

First, I'd like for you to explain how you can justify saying that anybody presently alive benefitted from anybody else's ancestors. Personally, I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood, and went to a predominately black school. If anything, I had less opportunites than others in my neighborhood, because we didn't qualify for minority programs such as scholarships. I have no idea if my family ever owned any slaves, but I can tell you that *I* never benefitted from it if they did. The only thing I think I "owe" anybody is a fair shot at the same opportunites.

 

[SnappleLlama]

I can't get into all those wars, but there is no denying that the single issue recognized as divisive in our country, and the one single issue neglected by our Founders is slavery based on race. I'm obviously against slavery, but I believe there is a reason whites enslaved blacks that is from the dawn of history. But we can't deny it was a wrong that our (white) families did to theirs. The point is the result is that the entire country believes our civil war (that cost us about 700,000 American lives and the destruction of the South) was just about slavery and it was about protecting states rights. Yes the secession came from the need to protect the institution of slavery to preserve political balance in Washington (the 3/5ths Clause) but that point is lost on just about everyone. The 3/5s Clause sidestepped the manumission issue altogether and made men property. For that act by our forefathers, we have to "man-up" and acknowledge what wrong was done and fix what we can of it. No it won't be much. But while Lincoln was alive, Congress granted compensated emancipation to slaves in Washington D.C. Why that offer was not extended to the "slave states" I don't know. Anybody? But Lincoln chose instead to invest in creating Big Government and centralizing power at gunpoint rather than pay-off slave holders and settle the issue of slavery right there. The result was all those lives lost, federal taxation, and the loss of states rights (and thereby the right of individual sovereignty).

***Here's the particulars: My plan isolates the 35 states that were involved in the beginning of the Civil War (War Between the States). My figure of $30,000 is today's equivalent of what Congress paid for compensated emancipation to slave holders in the District of Columbia. I've estimated that in 2006 there were 35,315,000 black people living in those 35 states (I did include WV because it simply split from VA). If each black person received $30,000.00 from the Federal Government as compensation for the wrong it did to them, the total would be about $106 Billion in 2006 dollars. That is about 1/10th of this Fat Cat Bailout. Much of that would be invested and would grow the economy and create liquidity and so in essence it would pay for itself.

It would go far toward righting a wrong ... a wrong that is impossible to properly calculate as to who has already benefited, who really had slave ancestors, and so forth, but it goes farther than anything so far to restore to Black people their rightful position as sovereign Citizens equal in law and humanity with every other race whether they believe they were once superior or not. And fixing the 14th Amendment and properly ratifying it would eliminate the second-class citizen and it's shadow legal jurisdiction.

.

You are insane.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

First, I'd like for you to explain how you can justify saying that anybody presently alive benefited from anybody else's ancestors. Personally, I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood, and went to a predominately black school. If anything, I had less opportunities than others in my neighborhood, because we didn't qualify for minority programs such as scholarships. I have no idea if my family ever owned any slaves, but I can tell you that *I* never benefited from it if they did. The only thing I think I "owe" anybody is a fair shot at the same opportunities.

This is a good response, as also was the one wanting to dissolve the government. To that I'd only say that I agree with the guy who said he'd reparate all the pre-13th Amendment slaves. If I take his meaning correctly, I too am for getting rid of all the bad government and returning us a truly Constitutional form of government as it existed before the 13th Amendment. But I'd also require that slavery of blacks, indians, irish, and sovereign citizens be eliminated. As far as Native Americans, that is a tough one. I don't have an answer on that. Maybe you can offer one? Ever thought about it before?

How can I claim that anyone today has benefited from anyone yesterday? Infrastructure was created. Markets were created. Labor was created. Estates were created. Farms were created. Laws were created. Beneficiaries were created. Families were created. I grew up in Georgia, okay? I also don't believe we "owe" anybody alive. The fact is we all benefited from all the was created here (and I don't mean creationism). It's not about owing anybody - $30k doesn't really "pay" for anything. It is about being equally unconstitutional as this big bail-out, but for a just cause. Do you believe the bail-out just? Huh?

There will be turmoil without some sort of intervention to create liquidity ... I don't know what that will be though. Yes I want to get back to a Free Market economy. I'm fiscally conservative. I'm socially liberal however. Bottom line is I'm a Libertarian who sees that an injustice has been targeted on black people by the laws written by the founders. This is not White Guilt and it was not my fault but I want to alleviate the injustice done to their families by a gesture of kindness. Their heirs have not had the benefits we've had as whites. If you care to research if we've benefited from slavery, I would welcome that data. All I'm saying is that you can't in good faith save Wall Street without saving the slaves.

My deeper point is that TAX-PAYERS are slaves. That's why the IRS, the FED, ED DEPT, and SS need to be dismantled immediately after reparations are given as a last act of unconstitutionality because that would be fitting to the backwards notion of justice we've been left with here. The only Federal intrusion I want to see is adding a requirement to teach all children LAW from the 1st Grade. Average people have become dumber while the crooks in government have become smarter. The founders were intelligent and we need to get back to that somehow. We've become an Idiocracy. To the last poster who said I was crazy, please share with us the benefit of your sanity. Or STFU.

I want EVERYTHING Ron Paul wants, I'm just saying that Reparations is a good way to start healing racial wounds that still exist, and have never been healed by the party that created them. Seems we have the impression that blacks prefer Democrats because of welfare. Let's get rid of welfare, create a rich society, and get blacks on our side! You know, if you don't have anything constructive to add then just fuck off frankly. If you want to go act like a racist then yeah continue with the stupid comments and I'll call you a racist. I don't believe Ron Paul is though. He's the type of American we should be more like! He's on the right side of history and he's devoted his life to it. By spewing your unhelpful name-calling you are really part of the problem. I think there were some civic-minded people on this forum that want to be part of the solution. Just waiting them to come back ...

 

[Truth Warrior]

Actually my point was, all of the slaves are DEAD. All of the slave owners are DEAD.

Pursue reparations for slavery with the slave owner's political party, today's Democrats ( so called ).

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Slaves are dead?

What do you call Tax-Payers?

That is forced labor, wage slavery, and the theft of those wages, not to mention at gun point.

We need to get rid of slavery once and for all, clean up the Constitution (and Amendments like the 16th, and the 15th, and the 14th, well you get my point). I'm just saying it will benefit us, the Ron Paul Revolutionaries have the blacks on our side ... the side of Liberty!

 

[Truth Warrior]

Slaves are dead?

What do you call Tax-Payers?

That is forced labor, wage slavery, and the theft of those wages, not to mention at gun point.

We need to get rid of slavery once and for all, clean up the Constitution (and Amendments like the 16th, and the 15th, and the 14th, well you get my point). I'm just saying it will benefit us, the Ron Paul Revolutionaries have the blacks on our side ... the side of Liberty!

Ah, a change of subject and definitions.

Yes, we're ALL slaves, at least part-time. Contrary to the false claim of the bogus Amendment XIII.

The Democrats STILL OWN the "blacks" ( so called ) by and large. Ron's "smaller government" views would NOT be appealing to them.<IMHO>

 

[Time for Change]

I will contribute some money to people who were actual slaves.
They can knock on my door to ask for the money...and I'll give it to them, if they can prove they are the actual person that was a slave.
Otherwise...
Those people are all dead and gone.
Their grandkids get free healthcare, education, college, special loans (that sparked the largest financial nightmare ever)...
What the hell else do these people want?

This kiss ass white guilt movement is just sickening.
Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks.
Why does one nationality NOW deserve to have additional preferential treatment over all the others, when the events of the past have no effect on them today?
Go back to where you supposedly came from and make the descendents of the tribal leaders who actually sold your ancestors into slavery pay their debt to you.

Shit...will the craziness ever end?

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

I will contribute some money to people who were actual slaves.
They can knock on my door to ask for the money...and I'll give it to them, if they can prove they are the actual person that was a slave.
Otherwise...
Those people are all dead and gone.
Their grandkids get free healthcare, education, college, special loans (that sparked the largest financial nightmare ever)...
What the hell else do these people want?

This kiss ass white guilt movement is just sickening.
Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks.
Why does one nationality NOW deserve to have additional preferential treatment over all the others, when the events of the past have no effect on them today?
Go back to where you supposedly came from and make the descendents of the tribal leaders who actually sold your ancestors into slavery pay their debt to you.

Shit...will the craziness ever end?

Nice.

See I don't think it works that way. I don't think that because Warren Buffet has earned a lot of money, then that is taking money away from me. The government has been the biggest bloodsucking leech and to get them off our backs and back under our sovereign control will free up immense wealth. I can't argue that blacks have had some preferential treatment. But that's not reparations. It is not a recognition of what OUR actual white family members did to THEIR actual family members. It is not about White Guilt ... shit I never should have used that term because now my own peeps (Paulites) are using it against me! It is about Justice. What would a Common Law Court do?


I think your statement "Yes the time of slavery was bad...for every nationality that experienced it through history, not just blacks" was wrong. I don't think the time of slavery was bad at all, except for forced separation of families, forced punitive torture, institutionalized rape, denial of education and citizenship rights. Other than that we had it great! As property though, slaves were valued and somewhat protected, thus the importance of the Fugitive Slave Act. Let me ask you this then: If $30k is a lot to you, what if you were a millionaire? If you were worth say, 2.4M, would you dole out 30 Grand to make things right with people of the black race?

"The events of the past have no effect on them today". Interesting! Nah, I've got no answer for that kind of ignorance. Is it possible that everyone on this site is racist?

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Ah, a change of subject and definitions.

Yes, we're ALL slaves, at least part-time. Contrary to the false claim of the bogus Amendment XIII.

The Democrats STILL OWN the "blacks" ( so called ) by and large. Ron's "smaller government" views would NOT be appealing to them.<IMHO>

Truth Warrior, that's a little myopic. Dems own blacks?

Ron's views are appealing to anyone with some time and inclination to get educated I believe. Maybe if more blacks saw themselves as Sovereign, as we all are supposed to be, maybe they would value not being on the govt dole (as you express).

Republicans (ever since Lincoln) are for big government. What has that given us? Huh? 2 Wars doing nothing to protect America? Bailing out an entire financial market of rich fucks? Unbelievable. Ron is unique now and really needs a different Party. He's the only small govt. Republican left, and thereby extinct. Ron Needs his own Party! Did you see the film "America: Freedom to Fascism"?

Anyway, Dems have their own problems. It's all about the 2 party system now, isn't it? What if we were just Americans? And not shills for some lobby as it is now? I think black folks would respond well to individual sovereignty as Ron teaches it.

 

[constituent]

what OUR actual white family members did to THEIR actual family members.

fail.

 

[RockEnds]

My ancestors ran a leg of the underground railroad, and I have documentation. Do the former slaves owe me money because my ancestors helped smuggle them out of slavery for free?

 

[mellamojuana]

My Peers, you should be on stage!

Forgive me, but I have never laughed any harder at anything besides this thread, except Country Bear Jamboree in Disney World.

The wit, the sarcasm, the off the wall comments--you could earn a living in the entertainment business, if you don't already. Brainy Bunch!

Newbie, I wonder whether you meant reparations as a sort of punitive award given as a court would do.

As others have pointed out, we are broke--actually, we are past broke. I always considered "broke" as being down to one's last dollar without, repeat, without debt. Here, we call what the country is "in the hole," that is, not only without money, but also owing money. Yep, I think we can safely say that, with or without reparations, we are in the hole.

Yep, and going deeper by the minute.

Do consider the stage.

 

[mellamojuana]

misspelling in my previous post changes meaning

Sorry, I couldn't edit. The word should be "owing" money, not "owning."

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

Forgive me, but I have never laughed any harder at anything besides this thread, except Country Bear Jamboree in Disney World.

The wit, the sarcasm, the off the wall comments--you could earn a living in the entertainment business, if you don't already. Brainy Bunch!

Newbie, I wonder whether you meant reparations as a sort of punitive award given as a court would do.

As others have pointed out, we are broke--actually, we are past broke. I always considered "broke" as being down to one's last dollar without, repeat, without debt. Here, we call what the country is "in the hole," that is, not only without money, but also owing money. Yep, I think we can safely say that, with or without reparations, we are in the hole.

Yep, and going deeper by the minute.

Do consider the stage.

The stage I thought I was writing to was Ron Paul Libertarians like myself. I am fully aware that what I propose (the reparation part) is not Absolutist Theory. What do we have now? Are we anywhere NEAR close to having the type of Absolute constitutional government. No, it is a dream, a very old Lysander Spooner-era dream. But alas I share that dream with you. It is truth.

However, I seem to be the only one that sees uniting with out black brothers and sisters is a reality of our proposed utopia. That's why the term racist has come into my vocabulary! Never used it before because I never had actual conversations with racists, although I've had plenty of racist neighbors. Somebody owes them something. I'm just putting a pricetag on it and some context.

The rest of the idea is pure Ron Paul Message: follow the Constitution. Well, you know? I love the Constitution except for 2 things, institutionalized discrimination against women and blacks. The Indian question I think was brought in from the reality of the situation from my favorite president, George Washington. However, even he let me down by ordering the genocide.

I liked Jefferson and Madison but not their presidencies. So what we have here is a dream, with no hope of ever being reached. We have debt, started by Lincoln to war on his fellow Americans. And we have the prospect of spending a trillion bucks on some toxic property held by Wall Street bankers. And you won't spend $30k to make friends with blacks? Now that is comedic!

Yes, I see the humor. I had wondered where the topic of reparations had gone in online dialogue! You really don't see it anymore. Maybe it's ancient history by now. I'm really not surprised by the racism, unfortunately, as I've been white for far too long. I am however surprised by the Absolutism here. I thought other Paulites would be more ... stateman-like, you know, like Ron.

I'll tell you what right now. This Absolutism (whether about the Constitution or about Free Market Economics) will assure that our shared dream will forever remain a dream. We will slide deeper into debt and totalitarianism. We will war ourselves out of a nation. Everything you don't want to happen. Maybe we need to consider making friends, and using diplomacy and compromise.

 

[RockEnds]

Yeah, on the Indian question. My boys are descended from American Indians on their paternal grandmother's side and a colonial Indian fighter on their paternal grandfather's side. Do they owe reparations to themselves?

 

[SeanEdwards]

Seriously:

No.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Truth Warrior, that's a little myopic. Dems own blacks?

Ron's views are appealing to anyone with some time and inclination to get educated I believe. Maybe if more blacks saw themselves as Sovereign, as we all are supposed to be, maybe they would value not being on the govt dole (as you express).

Republicans (ever since Lincoln) are for big government. What has that given us? Huh? 2 Wars doing nothing to protect America? Bailing out an entire financial market of rich fucks? Unbelievable. Ron is unique now and really needs a different Party. He's the only small govt. Republican left, and thereby extinct. Ron Needs his own Party! Did you see the film "America: Freedom to Fascism"?

Anyway, Dems have their own problems. It's all about the 2 party system now, isn't it? What if we were just Americans? And not shills for some lobby as it is now? I think black folks would respond well to individual sovereignty as Ron teaches it.

You're getting off to a bad start here. If you think you'd like to play some bad ass hardball, we can play. You won't like it.

What party does 90% of black voters vote for, year in, year out, decade after decade, ever since FDR? I'd call that ownership. And the DNC thinks and acts the very same way about them.

I'm beginning to think that you're just delusional, for a variety of reasons. You seem much more like a Democrat to me. You may be on the wrong forum. I'll leave it at that, for now.

I've been a fan of Ron for over 25 years now, he knows what he is doing. Yes, I've seen America:Freedom to Fascism, several times.

I think we're done here.

 

[RonPaulNewbee]

You're getting off to a bad start here. If you think you'd like to play some bad ass hardball, we can play. You won't like it.

What party does 90% of black voters vote for, year in, year out, decade after decade, ever since FDR? I'd call that ownership. And the DNC thinks and acts the very same way about them.

I'm beginning to think that you're just delusional, for a variety of reasons. You seem much more like a Democrat to me. You may be on the wrong forum. I'll leave it at that, for now.

I've been a fan of Ron for over 25 years now, he knows what he is doing. Yes, I've seen America:Freedom to Fascism, several times.

I think we're done here.

Don't know what climbed up your butt. But yes, I must be on the wrong forum. I am quite versed in Ron Paul's platform (if that's what he still has after his Pres. campaign). I was the only one defending his position on all the forums I was on up 'til the Primary and even after. While bloggers were calling him a racist, I was calmly finding common ground with minorities and teaching the Libertarian gospel.

Now I've discovered a possible solution to reaching the Democratic populace. Because I found a way to bridge the gap between the cause of Liberty and current black Democrats you are calling me "more like a Democrat"? Tell me, other than my idea (which I don't think Ron has commented on), what have I posted that is anything other than pure, Absolutist Ron? Anyway, why am I asking you?

You are the most unfriendliest lot, just as much as the apologist Lincoln worshipers. Pwning blacks? That's one I'm going to have to remember next time Ron and I talk about why his message didn't reach as many Americans as it could have. I'm done here. Oh, and I just want to say, these poor attitudes here should not reflect on Ron or his message. It must be some residual anger over paying taxes.

Ron himself doesn't represent this narrow viewpoint; he's a good man. His wants liberty and justice for all.

 

[Flash]

If anything we do have to give the Native Americans more first. They are the indigineous people to the land. Black people were held as slaves, however at the end of the day they still have Africa. Natives lost everything.

 

[UnReconstructed]

my great grand-daddy was one of those irish slaves... but to the british. They called it impressment. He escaped off of a trade ship on the coast of Louisiana in 1841.

do I qualify for british reparations?