Separation of Church and State

[Flash The Cash]

I think RP's position can be summed up pretty sucicntly: It is illegitimate for the FEDERAL government to make ANY laws in regards to religious practices, either for or against. That's it. Whether or not prayer is allowed in schools, or having the 10 commandments posted in pohdunk city halls is a matter that should be left up to the states and their respective constitutions.

That is RP's position is it not?

Civil government has no legitimate authority whatsoever over prayer or any other duty we owe exclusively to our Creator. Five of the Ten Commandments are laws regarding the duty we exclusively to our Creator.

 

[DarkReign]

The Ron Paul Library has some information on this:

From: http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=694

"In case after case, the Supreme Court has used the infamous "separation of church and state'' metaphor to uphold court decisions that allow the federal government to intrude upon and deprive citizens of their religious liberty. This "separation" doctrine is based upon a phrase taken out of context from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. In the letter, Jefferson simply reassures the Baptists that the First amendment would preclude an intrusion by the federal government into religious matters between denominations. It is ironic and sad that a letter defending the principle that the federal government must stay out of religious affairs. should be used two hundred years later to justify the Supreme Court telling a child that he cannot pray in school!

The Court completely disregards the original meaning and intent of the First amendment. It has interpreted the establishment clause to preclude prayer and other religious speech in a public place, thereby violating the free exercise clause of the very same First amendment. Therefore, it is incumbent upon Congress to correct this error, and to perform its duty to support and defend the Constitution. My legislation would restore First amendment protections of religion and speech by removing all religious freedom-related cases from federal district court jurisdiction, as well as from federal claims court jurisdiction. The federal government has no constitutional authority to reach its hands in the religious affairs of its citizens or of the several states."

More at:

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/search/search.php?q=religion&op=and

..............the first amendment is quite clear. And it's not illegal to pray in school, but it's illegal for the government workers to coerce students to pray! PLEASE tell me Ron believes in separation of church and state....or I'm gonna jump ship. As the evolution thing is already heavy on my mind...

 

[Kade]

..............the first amendment is quite clear. And it's not illegal to pray in school, but it's illegal for the government workers to coerce students to pray! PLEASE tell me Ron believes in separation of church and state....or I'm gonna jump ship. As the evolution thing is already heavy on my mind...

DarkReign,

I'm an atheist. I started this thread. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=17370

Ron Paul supporters tend to think that he does not support the separation of church and state. (If you say this too loud, you will be banned).

I haven't jumped ship... but the supporters have gotten more and more belligerent in stomping out legitimate dissent, here and elsewhere.

 

[NeoconPaulsupporter]

DarkReign,

I'm an atheist. I started this thread. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=17370

Ron Paul supporters tend to think that he does not support the separation of church and state. (If you say this too loud, you will be banned).

I haven't jumped ship... but the supporters have gotten more and more belligerent in stomping out legitimate dissent, here and elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul has flat out said there is no such thing as "Seperation of Church and State" in the Constitution.

 

[Kregener]

Show me "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution please.

 

[peter_lifton]

Where did you flunk Constitution 101?

Where is "separation of church and state" mentioned in the constitution?

Is the word "CHURCH" even in the constitution? I've never seen it.

 

[peter_lifton]

..............the first amendment is quite clear. And it's not illegal to pray in school, but it's illegal for the government workers to coerce students to pray! PLEASE tell me Ron believes in separation of church and state....or I'm gonna jump ship. As the evolution thing is already heavy on my mind...

Ron has stated many times in the past his BELIEFS don't count in the equation. For example, he hates illegal drugs but has said they the constitution doesn't give the Feds the right to regulate its sale.

Regardless, of his belief in the dogmatic phrase "separation of church and state" the constitution doesn't provide for this separation (other than the congress will MAKE NO LAW REGARDING RELIGION).

So kids can feel safe praying in school during prayer time, and your kids can feel safe not praying during "not prayer time" (which is most of the time).

 

[Mark Mosconi]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
-George Washington

These quotes basically demonstrate the idea that 'with freedom comes responsibility.'
However, responsible actions, morality, ethics (or whatever you wish to call it) have no meaning if one does not believe in a universal, immaterial law of morality. If there is no universal, immaterial moral code that says I can't kill, then who can tell me I can't? My family? The government? What if they don't see me do it? Then who? The ability to logically justify immoral actions can be a real and terrifying consequence. This is what I fear most with the freedom movement. Freedom is a great thing, but only if the people restrain themselves from immoral acts.

 

[barcop]

As an atheist... I have no problems with Ron Paul's view on religion. I don't care if kids say the pledge because it has the word "God" in it or say a prayer in school. If my daughter doesn't want to say "God" she can replace it with __________ (fill in the blank) or not say the pledge at all. That is her freedom of choice and freedom of speech... that Ron Paul does want to protect.

His view seems no different on this than on anything else.... leave it to the states to decide what they allow in public schools. No different than his view on abortion. I can understand that he is a Christian and therefore wants freedom of religion to allow Christians to be able to epxress there beliefs in public. But that also includes all religion and I don't see him denouncing other religions.

This includes Atheism, Satanism, Judaism, Buddhism, and on and on. So if my daughter's school wants to allow students to pray in the morning... big deal.... she can pray to the All Mighty Zoltan if she feels like it. Now if the teacher stops her from her freedom of prayer to whatever or whomever she wishes... then that's when issues will start with me.

I don't think Ron Paul has ever stated anywhere that he wishes school's to teach religion in any form or teachers should lead in prayer... unless of course it is a privately funded school... and I have never seen him say that Christianity is the only religion that should have freedom of speech if that is what the state decides.

Sometimes Atheists get worked up because they don't want to hear about God... but the truth is not wanting to hear about God... well that is our religion. So if we want freedom from religion... the truth is we have to also accept freedom of religion.... or we are hypocrites.

It will be interesting though... if one day voluntary prayer is allowed in class and Christian parents realize that a muslim student is praying to Allah next to their kid. Good times.

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=259

The entire nation seemed to condemn last week’s federal court ruling that the pledge of allegiance cannot be recited in schools. The notion that the phrase "one nation under God" renders the pledge unconstitutional is ridiculous to most Americans, who strongly believe that expressions of religious belief should be an integral part of public life. Yet although the public outcry against this terrible ruling is understandable, the real issue of religious freedom has not been addressed by Congress or the media.

The judges who made this unfortunate ruling simply do not understand the First amendment. It does not bar religious expression in public settings or anywhere else. In fact, it expressly prohibits federal interference in the free expression of religion. Far from mandating strict secularism in schools, it instead bars the federal government from prohibiting the pledge of allegiance, school prayer, or any other religious expression. The politicians and judges pushing the removal of religion from public life are violating the First amendment, not upholding it.

It’s important to recognize that the First amendment applies only to Congress. Remember, the first sentence starts with "Congress shall make no law..." This means that matters of religious freedom and expression should be decided by the states, with disputes settled in state courts. The First amendment acts as a simple check on federal power, ensuring that the federal government has no jurisdiction or authority whatsoever over religious issues. The phony "incorporation" doctrine, dreamed up by activist judges to pervert the plain meaning of the Constitution, was used once again by a federal court to assume jurisdiction over a case that constitutionally was none of its business.

Similarly, the mythical separation of church and state doctrine has no historical or constitutional basis. Neither the language of the Constitution itself nor the legislative history reveals any mention of such separation. In fact, the authors of the First amendment- Fisher Ames and Elbridge Gerry- and the rest of the founders routinely referred to "Almighty God" in their writings, including the Declaration of Independence. It is only in the last 50 years that federal courts have perverted the meaning of the amendment and sought to unlawfully restrict religious expression. We cannot continue to permit our Constitution and our rich religious institutions to be degraded by profound misinterpretations of the Bill of Rights.

I previously introduced legislation entitled "The First Amendment Restoration Act" to address this kind of judicial overreach and reassert true First amendment religious freedoms. The bill becomes especially timely now, as it clarifies that federal courts have no jurisdiction whatsoever over matters of religious freedom. It also restores real religious freedom by making it clear that the federal government cannot forbid expressions of religion, including the Ten Commandments, in either public or private life.

 

[RonPaulMania]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
-George Washington

These quotes basically demonstrate the idea that 'with freedom comes responsibility.'
However, responsible actions, morality, ethics (or whatever you wish to call it) have no meaning if one does not believe in a universal, immaterial law of morality. If there is no universal, immaterial moral code that says I can't kill, then who can tell me I can't? My family? The government? What if they don't see me do it? Then who? The ability to logically justify immoral actions can be a real and terrifying consequence. This is what I fear most with the freedom movement. Freedom is a great thing, but only if the people restrain themselves from immoral acts.

Those quotes only prove that you need morality for a healthy state. I mean who do those guys think they are and who do you think they are? (sarcasm off)

You are on a board with mostly atheistic young guys and any mention of God makes them urinate blood. Be careful.