SCOTUS issues ruling regarding lower courts that could be the end for "Birthright Citizenship"

[Madison320]

I asked Grok: "Do all countries have birthright citizenship?"

No, not all countries have birthright citizenship. Birthright citizenship, or jus soli ("right of soil"), grants citizenship to anyone born on a country's territory, regardless of their parents' status. About 35 countries, primarily in the Americas, have unconditional or near-unconditional birthright citizenship, including the United States, Canada, Brazil, and Mexico.


However, most countries worldwide use jus sanguinis ("right of blood"), where citizenship is determined by the nationality of one or both parents, or a combination of jus sanguinis and jus soli with restrictions. For example:

• Europe: Most countries, like Germany and France, primarily use jus sanguinis. Some, like France, grant citizenship to children born on their soil only if at least one parent is a citizen or legal resident, or under specific conditions.
• Asia: Countries like China, Japan, and India rely on jus sanguinis and do not offer automatic birthright citizenship based on place of birth.
• Africa: Most African nations, such as Nigeria and South Africa, prioritize jus sanguinis, though some have limited jus soli provisions.
• Oceania: Australia restricts birthright citizenship, requiring at least one parent to be a citizen or permanent resident.

Some countries, like the Dominican Republic, have moved away from birthright citizenship in recent years, citing immigration concerns. Others, like Malta, have no jus soli provisions at all. The specifics vary widely due to historical, cultural, and political factors. If you want details on a particular country, let me know.

 

[Madison320]

I asked Grok: "In countries with "jus sanguinis", what is the process used to determine citizenship?"

In countries with jus sanguinis ("right of blood") citizenship, nationality is primarily determined by the citizenship of one or both parents, rather than the place of birth. The process varies by country, but here’s a general overview of how jus sanguinis is applied:

1. Parental Citizenship Verification:
   • The citizenship of the child’s parent(s) is confirmed through official documentation, such as passports, national ID cards, or birth certificates.
   • Some countries require only one parent to be a citizen (e.g., Japan, Israel), while others may require both (e.g., certain historical laws in some nations).
   • In cases of single-parent recognition (e.g., only the mother or father is legally acknowledged), the citizenship of the recognized parent typically applies.
2. Registration of Birth:
   • Parents must register the child’s birth with the country’s authorities, often at a consulate or embassy if the birth occurs abroad, or at a civil registry if within the country.
   • Documentation proving the parent’s citizenship is submitted, along with the child’s birth certificate.
3. Descent Rules:
   • Citizenship is typically granted automatically to a child if one or both parents are citizens at the time of birth.
   • Some countries impose generational limits. For example, in Germany, children born abroad to German parents may not automatically inherit citizenship if the parents were also born abroad after a certain date (e.g., 2000), unless specific steps are taken to register the child.
   • In cases of adoption, citizenship may depend on the adoptive parents’ nationality and the country’s adoption laws.
4. Additional Conditions:
   • Some countries, like Italy, allow jus sanguinis to extend through multiple generations with no territorial restriction, meaning descendants of citizens can claim citizenship even if born abroad.
   • Others, like China, strictly limit jus sanguinis and may deny citizenship to children born abroad if the parents have taken another nationality.
   • Certain nations require the child to confirm or claim citizenship upon reaching adulthood (e.g., Switzerland).
5. Exceptions and Dual Citizenship:
   • Some jus sanguinis countries allow limited jus soli provisions (e.g., France grants citizenship to children born in France to foreign parents under specific conditions, like residency until adulthood).
   • Dual citizenship rules vary. Countries like Japan prohibit it, requiring individuals to choose one nationality by a certain age, while others, like Italy, allow it.
6. Administrative Process:
   • The process often involves submitting applications to government agencies, such as a ministry of interior or immigration department, with supporting documents.
   • For children born abroad, registration at a consulate is critical to establish the child’s citizenship and obtain a passport or national ID.
   • Some countries may require additional steps, like proving the parents’ uninterrupted citizenship or residency history.

 

[TheTexan]

Yummy liberal tears. Mmm

 

[TheTexan]

Easy solution to the administrative difficulty is to make it if you're white then just a birth certificate is enough. Otherwise you've got to prove your parents citizenship also

But noone likes easy solutions so.. shrug

 

[nikcers]

Trump officials create searchable national citizenship database

Trump officials create searchable national citizenship database

Homeland security and Doge merge immigration data with social security to create index it claims will stop voter fraud

www.theguardian.com

 

[Voluntarist]

Let's say Trump's order holds for this. Years from now, when someone has to determine if a person who was born in the USA in 2025 is a US citizen, what will be required to prove that person is a citizen. A birth certificate won't suffice. What will?

Wouldn't it be in a federal database? That's how you tell if someone is naturalized.

The Trump administration is building a national citizenship data system

The Trump administration has, for the first time ever, built a searchable national citizenship data system.

The tool, which is being rolled out in phases, is designed to be used by state and local election officials to give them an easier way to ensure only citizens are voting. But it was developed rapidly without a public process, and some of those officials are already worrying about what else it could be used for.
...
DHS, in partnership with the White House's Department of Governmental Efficiency (DOGE) team, has recently rolled out a series of upgrades to a network of federal databases to allow state and county election officials to quickly check the citizenship status of their entire voter lists — both U.S.-born and naturalized citizens — using data from the Social Security Administration as well as immigration databases.

Such integration has never existed before, and experts call it a sea change that inches the U.S. closer to having a roster of citizens — something the country has never embraced. A centralized national database of Americans' personal information has long been considered a third rail — especially to privacy advocates as well as political conservatives, who have traditionally opposed mass data consolidation by the federal government.

Legal experts told NPR they were alarmed that a development of this magnitude was already underway without a transparent and public process.

"That is a debate that needs to play out in a public setting," said John Davisson, the director of litigation at the nonprofit Electronic Privacy Information Center. "It's one that deserves public scrutiny and sunlight, that deserves the participation of elected representatives, that deserves opportunities for the public to weigh in through public comment and testimony."

When federal agencies plan to collect or use Americans' personal data in new ways, there are procedures they are required to follow beforehand, including giving public notice.

Another privacy expert, University of Virginia School of Law professor Danielle Citron, called this data aggregation effort a "hair on fire" development. She told NPR she has questions if the project itself is lawful.

Many other questions about the new system remain, including which states plan to use it and how, what sort of data security measures are being taken and how trustworthy the data the tool provides will be. It's also unknown what the federal government plans to do with the voter records after they've been run through the system.

But it still doesn't appear to be biometrically linked - so how reliable is that going to be.

 

[Madison320]

The Trump administration is building a national citizenship data system


But it still doesn't appear to be biometrically linked - so how reliable is that going to be.

Are birth certificates biometrically linked? It seems to me many of the weaknesses of a "right of blood" are also weaknesses of "birthright". Plus most countries use "right of blood".

I do think if we switch to "right of blood" we should also allow people to stay in the country who aren't citizens. At least they won't be able to vote. And since they can't vote it's more likely that they won't get free stuff.

 

[nikcers]

Are birth certificates biometrically linked? It seems to me many of the weaknesses of a "right of blood" are also weaknesses of "birthright". Plus most countries use "right of blood".

I do think if we switch to "right of blood" we should also allow people to stay in the country who aren't citizens. At least they won't be able to vote. And since they can't vote it's more likely that they won't get free stuff.

That would still attract people to come here like a magnet.

The idea is to change it so you dont get a free ticket to stay here just because you have a baby in your womb.

 

[PAF]

The Trump administration is building a national citizenship data system

Something Hitler/Obama/Biden/Hillary could never ever accomplish.

But just like the rollout of OWS, just wait until the evil-blame-it-on-the-democrats are "back in control".

 

[nikcers]

Something Hitler/Obama/Biden/Hillary could never ever accomplish.

But just like the rollout of OWS, just wait until the evil-blame-it-the-democrats are "back in control".

If you dont have that information how do you constitutionally elect a president?

 

[PAF]

If you dont have that information how do you constitutionally elect a president?

What do I care about a president, I don't even vote.

Next!

 

[Invisible Man]

Plus most countries use "right of blood".

I can never understand why any libertarians would ever use this as an argument for any position on any issue. Most countries are not places we should want to imitate.

 

[nikcers]

What do I care about a president, I don't even vote.

Next!

Ok so Kim Jung un runs for president then and gets elected are you OK with that?

The constitutional process requires natural born citizen [(allegiance) citizen].

The natural born (allegiance) followed that of the father from the historic intent of the law.

The status of the offspring follows that of the father.

(English colonies typically assigned a child's allegiance based on the father’s allegiance, partus sequitur ventrem)

You would lose your allegiance if you betrayed the kingdom or the country if there is no king and so would your children.

We tend to still follow that tradition and sometimes elect someone's child if their father was elected. Its because their allegiance is proven.

 

[TheTexan]

What do I care about a president, I don't even vote.

Next!

You're basically personal proof that "if you don't vote you can't complain", is a lie

Cus you complain a LOT

 

[Invisible Man]

You're basically personal proof that "if you don't vote you can't complain", is a lie

Cus you complain a LOT

Proving that "if you don't vote you can't complain" is a lie, is a good enough reason both to not vote and to complain even if there were no other reason.

 

[nikcers]

I can never understand why any libertarians would ever use this as an argument for any position on any issue. Most countries are not places we should want to imitate.

Our western civilization's philosophy which our country was founded has its roots that go all the way back to ancient Greek and Rome and Christianity.

Most of our government followed the traditions of a republic from the perspective of being an English colony and we didnt want to be a Monarchy.

We chose a republic when we declared independence and not a monarchy.

Obviously a libertarian doesn't necessarily want a Monarchy because a libertarian probably wants limited government and Monarchy is limitless government.

That doesnt necessarily mean you dont think that citizenship and allegiance is important in a civilization.

Birthright citizenship has its roots in monarchy. Anyone who was born on the kings territory is their subject.

While historically in a limited government the citizenship would be limited too. Thats the tradition our country follows.

 

[Madison320]

I can never understand why any libertarians would ever use this as an argument for any position on any issue. Most countries are not places we should want to imitate.

So for example if countries with lower tax rates are doing better than us we wouldn't want to imitate that? Switzerland stays out of foreign wars, don't we want to imitate that? Countries that didn't do covid lockdowns is another example.

I look at the world as a test lab. We should use that knowledge not ignore it.

 

[Invisible Man]

Obviously a libertarian doesn't necessarily want a Monarchy because a libertarian probably wants limited government and Monarchy is limitless government.

There is no such thing as limitless government. But the government that rules the American people sure has gotten bigger since they exchanged being colonies of a monarchy for whatever you want to call what we have now.

 

[Invisible Man]

So for example if countries with lower tax rates are doing better than us we wouldn't want to imitate that? Switzerland stays out of foreign wars, don't we want to imitate that? Countries that didn't do covid lockdowns is another example.

I look at the world as a test lab. We should use that knowledge not ignore it.

I would say we want to do that because it's right, not because it's what other countries are doing. And generally speaking, it isn't. Switzerland is a lot better than most places.

 

[nikcers]

There is no such thing as limitless government. But the government that rules the American people sure has gotten bigger since they exchanged being colonies of a monarchy for whatever you want to call what we have now.

Of course there are limited governments and limitless government...

We installed guard rails on our government. Separation of powers, and church and state and especially elections.

Here we can write in our newspapers and criticize the government because we have free speech. While in Saudi Arabia you might get chopped up for making the king appear weak and threatening their rule.