Scope Advice?

[Darguth]

Hello everyone,

The next larger gun-related purchase I'm looking to make is a scope for my AR-15. It's a DPMS Classic-16 model that I've put MOE furniture on (meaning it has a fixed carry handle).

The intent of this weapon is primarily as a SHTF gun. In case of an emergency this would be my primary firearm of choice. This also means that the weapon will of course be primarily for defense, possibly of my home against multiple attackers or in the outdoors. The latter requirement also means whatever scope I decide upon needs to be relatively rugged as well.

Now, I'm not particularly interested in being able to push the weapon to it's absolute limits. I doubt I'll ever have the time or availability to train with it to that degree of expertise. So I don't necessarily need optics that allow me to shoot out to any kind of theoretical maximum distance. I'm primarily looking to allow for engagements up to 200 yards or so (300 at most).

So, I guess my first two primary questions would break down as:

1.) What kind of specifications should I be looking for on a scope to meet the requirements I've laid out? (Willing to rethink those requirements as well, if I should.)

2.) What manufacturing brands should I be looking at in terms of quality once I've decided on the kind of specifications to look for?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. I'm hardly wealthy but I'm also willing to make an investment in a quality scope once I understand what I really need and can make the financial decision confidently. However, it's unlikely that I'd end up justifying some of the $2k-$3k scopes out there, so I'd ask people not to recommend something that high-end unless there is an essential and convincing reason.

 

[youngbuck]

I'd look at the offerings from Aimpoint and Trijicon (ACOG).

 

[fisharmor]

I was gonna say forget the scope and get some tech sights, but I see they don't make them for ARs.
I'm not an AR guy, but it seems to me like there must be someone making military-style peep sights for ARs.
There's a heck of a lot you can do with open sights.

 

[Darguth]

I was gonna say forget the scope and get some tech sights, but I see they don't make them for ARs.
I'm not an AR guy, but it seems to me like there must be someone making military-style peep sights for ARs.
There's a heck of a lot you can do with open sights.

Well my rifle has iron sights already because of the fixed carry handle. If I get a see-through mount for the scope I could use the iron sights for shorter ranges, while still having the scope for longer ranges. At least that's my plan currently.

 

[mortepa]

There are a ton of good options out there, but these are the scopes I prefer...
Cheap, Sub-200 - Nikon P-223
Mid-range, 2-500 - Burris MTAC or Nikon M223
Higher end 500+ - Trijicon ACOG w/RMR sight or Leopold if you prefer a more traditional scope

That said, I would recommend paying up and get yourself the Acog. Take your time and pick the one you like best. There are a lot of variants with different reticle patterns. I have the red Chevron, but I would also recommend the horseshoe reticle. These scopes are rock solid!!!

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I'd look at the offerings from Aimpoint and Trijicon (ACOG).

The Trijicon TA33-H 3x30 is nice. Illuminated, batteryless, 3x mag, can reach out to 600yd if ever necessary. Of course it's $1220

Really, if you want to stay under 300yd as a rule, then you do not want to get above 2x mag, but I don't like any of their reticles under the 3x scope, and at least having the ability to reach out past 300 if and when you ever need it may come in handy.

I'd probably avoid Aimpoint for a SHTF gun, most of their better offerings require batteries, and even though the claim is you can leave it turned on for 3 years, what happens if you are in a SHTF situ and the battery goes? No sweat in combat, just visit the armory. You and me in a SHTF situ? Yeah, a little bit of a bigger problem.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Well my rifle has iron sights already because of the fixed carry handle. If I get a see-through mount for the scope I could use the iron sights for shorter ranges, while still having the scope for longer ranges. At least that's my plan currently.

A good CQB optic and you won't need your BUIS. If you want to go that route then you DO need to stay under 2x, as any significant magnification will delay target acquisition. What I have on my .30-06 is a 3x9, can change the magnification from 3x to 9x

If you go for good old traditional glass, a 1.5x6 is a good idea. Keep it dialed into 1.5x for CQB and then you can crank it up to 6x for long range shots.

 

[Darguth]

The ACOG scope seem to be constructed to be somewhat elevated with a see-through section for iron sights on an A4 flat-top. I have an A2 fixed carry handle top, and I doubt I could justify the investment in a new upper in addition to a high-end scope like an ACOG anytime in the foreseeable future.

As for Aimpoint these are--at least to my knowledge--all non-magnifying sights. That's not really what I'm looking for.

 

[mortepa]

I think the ACOG "looks" perfect on an A2 fixed handle, although I've never shot one that way...but I would have to think it would be a great setup?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I think the ACOG "looks" perfect on an A2 fixed handle, although I've never shot one that way...but I would have to think it would be a great setup?

Not really. The scope is high enough off the plane to make a proper cheekweld more difficult.

ETA - it'll WORK just fine, you may just end up with more of a jaw-weld than a cheek-weld.

 

[mortepa]

Wouldn't you have the same "high jaw/chin weld" concern with any other scope too? Check out this pic with the raised cheek weld to accomodate the difference. As you can probably tell, I do not own an A2. So this is interesting to me.

Not really. The scope is high enough off the plane to make a proper cheekweld more difficult.

ETA - it'll WORK just fine, you may just end up with more of a jaw-weld than a cheek-weld.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Wouldn't you have the same "high jaw/chin weld" concern with any other scope too? Check out this pic with the raised cheek weld to accomodate the difference. As you can probably tell, I do not own an A2. So this is interesting to me.

Wow, um. On an AR your nose should be touching the charging handle. The image above you would either be half off the elevated piece, or have to crane your neck back until it almost snaps. Then you eye relief would be ALL random and instable, and you'd end up shooting worse than iron sights.

Vertical stock extenders do not work on AR because where you need it it gets in the way of the charging handle. fixed eye relief should put your nose touching the charging handle every time you fire.

Sure it's possible to scope an AR with a fixed carrying handle, it's just not practical in any real sense of the word. If you want optics on an AR get a flat top upper.

 

[Darguth]

Sure it's possible to scope an AR with a fixed carrying handle, it's just not practical in any real sense of the word. If you want optics on an AR get a flat top upper.

I'm really not sure I can justify a new upper and a scope within the foreseeable future. Would you recommend rather putting some time/money into training with iron sights alone?

I guess in my mind I've been wanting to use the rifle in a SHTF as a hunting rifle as well (live in MI, plenty of white tail that the .223 would be OK for). But I guess I think I'm also overestimating how much range I need to do that. Bow hunters kill at ranges less than 25 yards usually, so I suppose if I can use the iron sights well even out to just 100 yards it might be fine for my needs.

Thoughts?

 

[mortepa]

Thanks for clearing that up. This is good info.

Sorry Darguth, Maybe you could swap out your entire upper at a gun show for a nice used flat top? Just a thought to save U bucks.

Wow, um. On an AR your nose should be touching the charging handle. The image above you would either be half off the elevated piece, or have to crane your neck back until it almost snaps. Then you eye relief would be ALL random and instable, and you'd end up shooting worse than iron sights.

Vertical stock extenders do not work on AR because where you need it it gets in the way of the charging handle. fixed eye relief should put your nose touching the charging handle every time you fire.

Sure it's possible to scope an AR with a fixed carrying handle, it's just not practical in any real sense of the word. If you want optics on an AR get a flat top upper.

 

[PaulineDisciple]

Sure it's possible to scope an AR with a fixed carrying handle, it's just not practical in any real sense of the word. If you want optics on an AR get a flat top upper.

I'm really not sure I can justify a new upper and a scope within the foreseeable future. Would you recommend rather putting some time/money into training with iron sights alone?

I guess in my mind I've been wanting to use the rifle in a SHTF as a hunting rifle as well (live in MI, plenty of white tail that the .223 would be OK for). But I guess I think I'm also overestimating how much range I need to do that. Bow hunters kill at ranges less than 25 yards usually, so I suppose if I can use the iron sights well even out to just 100 yards it might be fine for my needs.

Thoughts?

You focused in on the exact quote from GunnyFreedom that I was going to, if you want optics with an AR, get a flat top upper. They make a detachable handle/rear sight so with a flat top, you can always go back to irons. If you can find someone to swap you, that's the route I would take.

Now in regard to scope, I like the leatherwood 1-4X24 CMR scope, its not as well known brand but it has got a lot of good reviews, is built like a tank and I like the features. It has an adjustable illuminated reticle and a Zero-Lock sighting system that allows you to adjust the vertical and horizontal settings to lock it into zero AFTER you have zeroed it. This means once you've zeroed it at the range you want it zeroed at, you should never have to zero it again, when you need to adjust it for range and/or windage you make any needed adjustments for that particular shot, then just crank it back to zero and its re-zeroed to your original zero. Of course, it also has a recticle using the mil-dot system so if you learn how to use the mil-dot pattern in the scope, you might not want or need to ever adjust for range or windage.

Here is a link that has most if not all the "flavors" of this scope.

http://swfa.com/Leatherwood-CMR-Tactical-Rifle-Scopes-C1519.aspx

The CMR stands for Close to Medium Range which sounds like what you want. Assuming you get a flat top, I would match it with a Burris AR-P.E.P.R. Mount.

 

[XNavyNuke]

I'm really not sure I can justify a new upper and a scope within the foreseeable future. Would you recommend rather putting some time/money into training with iron sights alone?

I guess in my mind I've been wanting to use the rifle in a SHTF as a hunting rifle as well (live in MI, plenty of white tail that the .223 would be OK for). But I guess I think I'm also overestimating how much range I need to do that. Bow hunters kill at ranges less than 25 yards usually, so I suppose if I can use the iron sights well even out to just 100 yards it might be fine for my needs.

Thoughts?

If'n game gets scarce, fill'n the pot will mean longer distances. What CAN be done today won't last more that a month or two SHTF.

Regarding scopes and cheek welds. Parallax shift is your enemy and it comes from crappy cheek welds, not the optics. You should be able to drop your cheek onto the stock at roughly the same point once you practice and gain muscle memory. Then it becomes a matter of finding a scope and a good set of rings with the proper height and eye relief so that you are looking straight down the tube. If you use neck muscles to raise your cheek to do that, they WILL fatigue over time. Your cheek will slump and your shots will fly low. I second Gunny's 1.5x comments. Don't go crazy with magnification. I like the low power because of the larger FOV and because I shoot with both eyes open. Looking through high mag scope for long times like that gives me a headache. YMMV. Once you learn to shoot iron at distance, a center of mass shot on a deer sized target shouldn't be difficult out to 250.

XNN

 

[GunnyFreedom]

If'n game gets scarce, fill'n the pot will mean longer distances. What CAN be done today won't last more that a month or two SHTF.

Regarding scopes and cheek welds. Parallax shift is your enemy and it comes from crappy cheek welds, not the optics. You should be able to drop your cheek onto the stock at roughly the same point once you practice and gain muscle memory. Then it becomes a matter of finding a scope and a good set of rings with the proper height and eye relief so that you are looking straight down the tube. If you use neck muscles to raise your cheek to do that, they WILL fatigue over time. Your cheek will slump and your shots will fly low. I second Gunny's 1.5x comments. Don't go crazy with magnification. I like the low power because of the larger FOV and because I shoot with both eyes open. Looking through high mag scope for long times like that gives me a headache. YMMV. Once you learn to shoot iron at distance, a center of mass shot on a deer sized target shouldn't be difficult out to 250.

XNN

Aye, and when we had people (in the Marines or in Appleseed) who couldn't obtain a reliably consistent cheekweld, we'd do things like putting a strip of grip-tape sideways across the top of the stock (positioned to interact with the cheekweld) so they would have a tactile indication of consistent eye relief.

I cannot possibly stress the importance of consistent cheekweld enough. It doesn't matter how well your sights or your scope are zeroed, if the position of your head is off by even a couple millimeters it will take your rounds off target.

That's why on the AR you use the charging handle to obtain eye relief. The tip of your nose should juuuuuust barely touch the charging handle every single time, and then you know you are always the exact same distance from the sights. This also will help align your head around the stock so you avoid a cant or lateral misposition. You end up with three fixed points, which provides ridiculous stability

point 1: Nose on the charging handle
point 2: Cheekweld consistently in the same spot on the cheekbone
point 3: Eye straight down the sights

Three fixed points, when addressed together, provide sub-millimeter consistency in eye relief and lateral position. Which is exactly what is required for maximum precision.

 

[Matt Collins]

You can get some amazingly inexpensive scopes at www.DealExtreme.com

Granted they are from China but if you can't afford top of the line, these are the next best things.

 

[Darguth]

So, I think it's highly possible that I was over-valuing a scope for what I really want out of my rifle. More than that I likely need more marksmanship training.

I'm considering putting the money I would have otherwise put into a scope for my AR into a .22LR rifle for my girlfriend and then signing us both up for an Appleseed in April near us. I think the training would do us a helluva lot more good than hardware probably.

A few questions for anyone more familiar with Appleseed based on their "How to Prepare" lists on their website:
1.) It says to bring 10- or 20-round mags. Is there any problem with 30-round mags? That's all I have (10 of them) and don't really have any desire to buy smaller-capacity ones.
2.) Any advice on what to bring/use for rifle covers if it rains or we have dust/sand problems or something? I've never used anything like that before.
3.) It says to bring a back-up rifle if possible, would there be any issue with trainers if we swapped the AR and .22 between us as the 2 rifles? I'd like us to both be proficient with each.

Thanks!

 

[GunnyFreedom]

So, I think it's highly possible that I was over-valuing a scope for what I really want out of my rifle. More than that I likely need more marksmanship training.

I'm considering putting the money I would have otherwise put into a scope for my AR into a .22LR rifle for my girlfriend and then signing us both up for an Appleseed in April near us. I think the training would do us a helluva lot more good than hardware probably.

A few questions for anyone more familiar with Appleseed based on their "How to Prepare" lists on their website:
1.) It says to bring 10- or 20-round mags. Is there any problem with 30-round mags? That's all I have (10 of them) and don't really have any desire to buy smaller-capacity ones.

No problem at all. The most you are likely to feed the mag in training is 8 rounds. I think there is one event where they say fill your mag and go nuts, trying to REMOVE the 1" square at 25yd, but that's the only one.

2.) Any advice on what to bring/use for rifle covers if it rains or we have dust/sand problems or something? I've never used anything like that before.

Any kind of waterproof rifle bag or case will probably do. If you are dutiful (and a bit OCD) about cleaning, then a little rain isn't going to hurt your weapon anyway. For a hasty cover you can bring a poncho, which is what we used int he Marines for the same purpose.

3.) It says to bring a back-up rifle if possible, would there be any issue with trainers if we swapped the AR and .22 between us as the 2 rifles? I'd like us to both be proficient with each.

No problem there at all, but a rifle zero between two different shooters is likely to be juuust a little off.

Thanks!