Ron Paul: Our Liberties Come From Our Creator

[PaulConventionWV]

Link? Hell just cite a book from one major historian. Also show me statistics on historians belief (proof) of jesus's existence is the majority view. You can not just simply claim that and not back it up. I am referring to the biblical account of jesus that did the things he did.

 

[Theocrat]

What Else Can I Say?

Ron Paul rocks! What else can I say?

Ron Paul: True Liberties Come From Our Creator, Not the Government
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ron-paul-our-liberties-come-from-our-creator-50858/

Congressman Paul's message is simple, and it aligns with what our Founding Fathers believed. It's very disappointing that we have members on this forum whose hatred for God is so staunch that they aren't able to accept plain historical facts about our country's history.

I think many "atheists" have not thought through the philosophical implications of their own view of rights, when God is removed. For instance, if we take Dr. Paul's message above "True liberties come from our Creator, not the government," we can see that, by logical implication, if there is no Creator to give us our liberties, then it is the government. When we see how so many people on the Left side of the spectrum do, in fact, reject God and promote policies for more government intervention in our lives, it definitely does ring some truth to the implication just stated.

In effect, many "atheists" treat the government as if it is God, and consequently, they assume that the government can take care of the people's needs better than the people themselves. That's why many who reject the Creator seek to make sure people are "blessed" by the government with free healthcare, free education, higher wages at work, better access to getting a home, and a host of other entitlements. They see the government as the "kind, just hand" from which all of our liberties and securities come. It's an effect of their overall philosophy that no Creator exists.

That's why it's important that we establish and diligently seek to know Who our Creator is. If we reject any notion of there being a Creator, then we leave it wide open for anyone to justify what our rights are, and they will come from two sources: the whims of men (by majority rule, or despotism), or the impersonal processes of nature. Neither one of those options give a satisfactory explanation for rights, and that has been explained in many ways in this thread.

So, suffice it to say that if liberties do not come from a Creator (because He doesn't exist), then liberties are as real as what the next person tells us they are, whether it's the government, or your next door neighbor who is an anarchist.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

How is that evidence of time having a beginning? Even if some kind of Big Bang did occur, it had to be the result of something else that occurred before it, to ad infinitum.

I see no reason to believe there is a beginning, or end to time, space and existence itself. Am I missing something?

I thought expansion of the universe was measured in time and space...

Aren't there like 7 basic observed ingredients of the universe? Time, space, distance, energy, light, mass, ??? (can't think of em off the top of my head)

More time... more space...
Less time... less space...

I don't know how small space can get but a point of origin seems perfectly logical to me...
I didn't witness it so maybe space can infinitely reduce...

Is there anything known to man in three dimensions that can physically reduce infinitely? I reckon it's theoretically possible...

 

[Ranger29860]

wow that video is incredibly dishonest. It says it has proof but provides none. There are no citing on sources for those quotes with the exception of one which leads me to an apologetic sight. There is also no links or information on where those clips came from. And after a very fast run of info on those professors that where quoted most were biblical scholars not historians. Again link me 1 HISTORIAN that says the BIBLICAL ACCOUNT of Jesus existed. That is not a biblical scholar who has a stake in the finding goings one way. There may have been a jesus or jesus like figure running around hell the myth itself is prevelent before jesus was claimed to be born but that is a whole another problem. But i have never seen any HISTORIAN that does not have a vested interest in jesus being real that says he was.

 

[Ranger29860]

Your life is meaningless in an atheistic worldview. What's the point of life if we all just end up dying anyway? Why would there be any reason to overcome suffering or help others if we know we are just going to sink into nothingness. Your view is not only depressing, it's dangerous. People who think their lives are meaningless and have no purpose tend to do irrational things.

Holy crap that is verbal diarrhea. I do not think my life is meaningless. Hell my life is motivated by the fact that i want to see my species go on to do great things.



I am inspired by the fact that in 100 years times we as a species will be colonizing other worlds. I may not get to live in that world and that does sadden me a little. But i am thankful i am alive at all. And it is my job as a Human to make sure we get to that point. I do not see us sinking into nothingness. I see us rising and conquering the heavens. I am not dangerous and my world view is not dangerous nor depressing

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

Holy crap that is verbal diarrhea. I do not think my life is meaningless. Hell my life is motivated by the fact that i want to see my species go on to do great things.

I am inspired by the fact that in 100 years times we as a species will be colonizing other worlds. I may not get to live in that world and that does sadden me a little. But i am thankful i am alive at all. And it is my job as a Human to make sure we get to that point. I do not see us sinking into nothingness. I see us rising and conquering the heavens. I am not dangerous and my world view is not dangerous nor depressing

Anyway, arguing ad consequentiam isn't really valid. And just because you remove religion doesn't mean everyone will sink into chaos and violence - our biology will take of that.

I don't really consider myself an atheist but that isn't a very convincing line of reasoning.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

wow that video is incredibly dishonest. It says it has proof but provides none. There are no citing on sources for those quotes with the exception of one which leads me to an apologetic sight. There is also no links or information on where those clips came from. And after a very fast run of info on those professors that where quoted most were biblical scholars not historians. Again link me 1 HISTORIAN that says the BIBLICAL ACCOUNT of Jesus existed. That is not a biblical scholar who has a stake in the finding goings one way. There may have been a jesus or jesus like figure running around hell the myth itself is prevelent before jesus was claimed to be born but that is a whole another problem. But i have never seen any HISTORIAN that does not have a vested interest in jesus being real that says he was.

You asked for historians, not evidence, and I gave it to you. I would now ask that those who accept evolution follow the same criteria and not base their beliefs on a bunch of scientists. Have you ever thought that, just maybe, those who attend a biblical school have just as credible beliefs as those who don't? Maybe they are biblical scholars because THEY KNOW ABOUT THE BIBLE. An atheist probably wouldn't vest much of his or her time studying the Bible. Why should I have to show you an atheist's point of view? You asked, and I gave you. Hell, that was just from a simple search on Google. I'm sure you could find lots more if you tried. Those guys also wrote books, which you asked for.

Also, don't act like atheists DON'T have a vested interest in the truth of the Bible. This is incredibly biased to say they are the only ones with legitimate views. Beside, there were non-believers in that video who said the same things about Jesus. The point is, nobody who is anybody disagrees on this. If you want evidence, do a Google search. I'm not here to debate the truth of Jesus' existence.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Holy crap that is verbal diarrhea. I do not think my life is meaningless. Hell my life is motivated by the fact that i want to see my species go on to do great things.



I am inspired by the fact that in 100 years times we as a species will be colonizing other worlds. I may not get to live in that world and that does sadden me a little. But i am thankful i am alive at all. And it is my job as a Human to make sure we get to that point. I do not see us sinking into nothingness. I see us rising and conquering the heavens. I am not dangerous and my world view is not dangerous nor depressing

Yes, but what you see is only temporary, and you will eventually vanish into nothingness. What's your motivation in an atheistic worldview where there is no purpose?

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

Yes, but what you see is only temporary, and you will eventually vanish into nothingness. What's your motivation in an atheistic worldview where there is no purpose?

In what manner is that an argument for God's existence? Most people will still live in accordance to their motivations, desires, hopes etc. Simply removing religion will not plunge society into a violent maelstrom.

 

[Ranger29860]

Yes, but what you see is only temporary, and you will eventually vanish into nothingness. What's your motivation in an atheistic worldview where there is no purpose?

Purpose in a persons personal life is superimposed by that person. Whether it be a religion or the purpose of helping others to even being just a selfish prick. It is always determined by that individual.

I fear you will never understand why i am motivated to get up in the morning or even why i think i have a purpose in my life. Not because you don't want to but it might be you can't see it.

Your purpose for you is determined by religion so why would you need another reason and why would another reason work since you are perfectly happy? You are already motivated and am not seeking motivation. So you may be incapable of seeing it from my point of view.

I was once a christian and i was once motivated solely by god. I understand what it is like i found motivation in existence to serve him and spread his message. But because of events in my life and my search for knowledge the idea of a christian god faded and soon after a god at all. If atheism leads to no motivation then why am i still alive? I should have killed myself or gone crazy if i saw no purpose in existing.

I want to see Humans soar through space and i want to have had some part in it. My thirst for knowledge is my personal motivator and my thirst to see Humans rise to space is my overall motivation. No god required.

 

[Ranger29860]

Yes, but what you see is only temporary, and you will eventually vanish into nothingness. What's your motivation in an atheistic worldview where there is no purpose?

Also, People play video games when the end result is always the same. The character and progress will eventually cease to exist. People read fictional books. When the outcome is the same, The story will eventually end. People watch movies even though it will eventually end.

You support Ron Paul even though he will eventually die.
You support liberty even though it will eventually not matter when jesus comes back.
You come to this forum and type messages even though the message will eventually get deleted.

The eventual ending of something does not make your participation in it worthless and without meaning.

 

[AZKing]

In an atheistic worldview...

There's your problem. Atheism is not a worldview, just a stance on the existence of god. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Buddhists aren't inherently theists, but believe in an continuous life cycle. You don't need a God to believe that.

 

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Atheism is not a worldview, just a stance on the existence of god. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your stance on God, __IS__ part of your worldview. A MAJOR part of it. Most philosophers would say it is the foundation of your worldview. So I'm not sure you should be telling someone they have a problem with grasping something you don't, that's just being a little bit ignorant.

 

[AZKing]

Most philosophers would say it is the foundation of your worldview.

Which philosophers? "Most" means absolutely nothing to me.

Theism, in the broadest sense, is not a worldview. Christianity might be. Islam might be. Hinduism might be. Theism or deism, in the broadest sense, doesn't mean anything other than belief in the existence of God.

atheism
disbelief in the existence of a god or gods

worldview
1. a particular philosophy of life or conception of the world
2. a collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group

 

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Which philosophers? "Most" means absolutely nothing to me.

Theism, in the broadest sense, is not a worldview. Christianity might be. Islam might be. Hinduism might be. Theism or deism doesn't mean anything other than belief in the existence of God.

I can't believe you actually just wrote this. I am not going to argue with someone asking which chefs cook with food. A person's position on the existance or not of a supreme being is the most fundamental shaper of a person's worldview, and if that somehow needs to be proven to you, then you'll need to find someone with more patience than I to explain philosophy 101 to you. Have fun.

 

[AZKing]

I am not going to argue with someone asking which chefs cook with food.

I never said anything like that.

All you said is that "most" philosophers believe God is the center of a worldview. I provided evidence to the contrary.

Saying that you're a theist does not tell me what your worldview is. All it tells me is that you believe some god exists. It does not tell me any of the essential parts of a worldview: (1) the basic nature of the world; (2) your basic nature; and (3) how you should act in the world. Atheism does not provide any of those either.

Your specific religion provides essential parts of your worldview. Simply being a theist does not.

 

[Ranger29860]

I can't believe you actually just wrote this. I am not going to argue with someone asking which chefs cook with food. A person's position on the existance or not of a supreme being is the most fundamental shaper of a person's worldview, and if that somehow needs to be proven to you, then you'll need to find someone with more patience than I to explain philosophy 101 to you. Have fun.

You claimed "most" he was asking where this came from. I could say most people believe i am god but that doesn't make it true. It is a valid question to ask.

I do not see how a person existing or not has any baring on how i view everything.
A supreme being not existing has no bearing towards my life because lack of belief adds nothing in the way new information. There is no lack of belief book.
The only time a God figure influences a person is when they believe in one since new information is being added. And usually a book is accompanying him.

Santa clause does not affect your's or my personal view of the world because we agree there is no proof for his existence and him not existing does not change the way we think and view things.
Now what if a grown man believed Santa was real? He would have a view of the world based on the idea a man can spy on every kid and delivery presents accordingly in one night to everyone.

 

[WilliamC]

I can't believe you actually just wrote this. I am not going to argue with someone asking which chefs cook with food. A person's position on the existance or not of a supreme being is the most fundamental shaper of a person's worldview, and if that somehow needs to be proven to you, then you'll need to find someone with more patience than I to explain philosophy 101 to you. Have fun.

Actually my worldview is just fine and I could care less if god exists or not. That's why I'm an agnostic/atheist.

I really don't believe in god, but I can't 'prove' god doesn't exist. But in reality it isn't all that important to me. Actually, I have zero belief in any sort of afterlife, so the whole religion thing basically escapes me.

Although do unto others as you would have them do unto you is excellent advice for anyone to follow, yes?

 

[nbhadja]

If God gave you the Rights, Government can't legitimately take them away.

You have the higher moral power if the government violates your God given rights.

Just like if nature gives you those rights government can't take them away either.

Some people, like myself, believe in nature instead of a god. It is the same concept in regards to natural rights being inherent. It's called "natural" rights for a reason.

 

[nbhadja]

Knowing where your Rights come from is essential in preserving your Rights. If you deny God and deny his Higher Authority over Government and over man, you will have no legitimate argument to proof your Rights were violated. With no Higher Authority, no "Rights" can be given.

So basically if you do not believe in god you do not deserve any rights. You sound like a theocrat.

That is a pathetic view point.

I am sorry but I have NATURAL rights and no one can violate them. My lack of believe in god plays no factor in it.

Just because you believe in god does not mean you have more rights than me. We all have equal rights REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Stop being so ignorant. Even Ron Paul would be disgusted with your view point.