Ron Paul: Our Liberties Come From Our Creator

[nbhadja]

How do you know you have rights?

Nature.

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

Nature.

I think he's asking you what your rational justification is for the existence of natural rights. Just saying "They come from nature" doesn't really provide justification or evidence as to why they exist.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Purpose in a persons personal life is superimposed by that person. Whether it be a religion or the purpose of helping others to even being just a selfish prick. It is always determined by that individual.

I fear you will never understand why i am motivated to get up in the morning or even why i think i have a purpose in my life. Not because you don't want to but it might be you can't see it.

Your purpose for you is determined by religion so why would you need another reason and why would another reason work since you are perfectly happy? You are already motivated and am not seeking motivation. So you may be incapable of seeing it from my point of view.

I was once a christian and i was once motivated solely by god. I understand what it is like i found motivation in existence to serve him and spread his message. But because of events in my life and my search for knowledge the idea of a christian god faded and soon after a god at all. If atheism leads to no motivation then why am i still alive? I should have killed myself or gone crazy if i saw no purpose in existing.

I want to see Humans soar through space and i want to have had some part in it. My thirst for knowledge is my personal motivator and my thirst to see Humans rise to space is my overall motivation. No god required.

You're right that the individual superimposes their own purpose. However, there is no basis for that purpose in an atheistic worldview. The human is obviously wired to seek motivation and do what it does. It's a mental condition that was instilled into you. I believe the human mind is conditioned to always search for truth and something that will seem divine to them. I think God meant it to be that way, but there really is no basis for the purpose, whatever you may decide it to be, if you are just going to dissolve into dust when you die, forever. You can search for meaning, but no philosophical view will satisfy any long-term meaning in your life because your life is just a blip in the midst of nothingness if there is no god. There are things in this life that you can view as special, but you can only view them as special while you are alive, so there really is no point beyond just this fragile existence in an atheistic worldview. I'm not trying to discourage you. I think there is purpose and I live it out, but let me tell you, it's not always easy. I'm sorry you lost the faith, but sometimes it's hard to pay attention to what God has planned for your life. You don't ever really know, but your curiosity keeps you going, and I believe this is the case whether or not you believe in God.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Also, People play video games when the end result is always the same. The character and progress will eventually cease to exist. People read fictional books. When the outcome is the same, The story will eventually end. People watch movies even though it will eventually end.

You support Ron Paul even though he will eventually die.
You support liberty even though it will eventually not matter when jesus comes back.
You come to this forum and type messages even though the message will eventually get deleted.

The eventual ending of something does not make your participation in it worthless and without meaning.

Now where did you get the idae that I think liberty won't matter? I think this is integral to God's plan. I think everything happens for a reason, and that's the way I live my life. It's intellectually satisfying, but sometimes very difficult, and I'm okay with that.

 

[Ranger29860]

Now where did you get the idae that I think liberty won't matter? I think this is integral to God's plan. I think everything happens for a reason, and that's the way I live my life. It's intellectually satisfying, but sometimes very difficult, and I'm okay with that.

Lol i knew you were gonna pick that out and not actually see the point of the post. With the exception of that line reread the post please.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I never said anything like that.

All you said is that "most" philosophers believe God is the center of a worldview. I provided evidence to the contrary.

Saying that you're a theist does not tell me what your worldview is. All it tells me is that you believe some god exists. It does not tell me any of the essential parts of a worldview: (1) the basic nature of the world; (2) your basic nature; and (3) how you should act in the world. Atheism does not provide any of those either.

Your specific religion provides essential parts of your worldview. Simply being a theist does not.

Your worldview has a big impact on your actions, your behavior toward others, and the way you interpret things. I think it is the most basic part of the worldview. Everything goes back to this: "Why?" That's where the basic belief in God or not comes from. Of course, that's not the whole part. It does depend on your view of God. Obviously, people model their behavior after the god they believe in. However, I think only the Bible has a firm rooting in reality. It may be hard for you to understand if you live your life as if there is no God, but that is simply the condition that is a result of what you believe about origins. It doesn't really matter what you believe, because it's going to have a profound impact on the way you live, although you may not notice it because you've already been living like that for a long time.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

So basically if you do not believe in god you do not deserve any rights. You sound like a theocrat.

That is a pathetic view point.

I am sorry but I have NATURAL rights and no one can violate them. My lack of believe in god plays no factor in it.

Just because you believe in god does not mean you have more rights than me. We all have equal rights REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Stop being so ignorant. Even Ron Paul would be disgusted with your view point.

You are right that Ron Paul would be disgusted with that, but that's actually not what he said at all. If I'm not mistaken, his views are much like mine. I believe everyone deserves rights because I believe God grants rights to all of his creation. However, if you think we are just the result of random chance, then there is no overarching morality, and your rights MUST come from government or else people will not respect your view and act on only what THEY think is right. Therefore, it follows that the power to enforce, the government, is the source of all of your rights. I came here because I don't think my rights come from government. I think Ron's views are very similar to mine on this because he realizes that rights must come from an authority greater than government in order to put any restraint on government.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I didn't think I could facapalm so many times in one thread.

I really have to congratulate the secular state-education monopoly in this country. It has succeeded.

 

[Dr.3D]

I never would have thought this thread could go on to 329 posts just because Ron Paul said "Our liberties come from our creator."

 

[Ranger29860]

I never would have thought this thread could go on to 329 posts just because Ron Paul said "Our liberties come from our creator."

I think it lead into a pretty good discussion on whether rights come from a creator or from another place. Was pretty good too till we got a little far off track

 

[libertybrewcity]

This guy is our creator? What/???

The flying spaghetti monster?

 

[nbhadja]

I think he's asking you what your rational justification is for the existence of natural rights. Just saying "They come from nature" doesn't really provide justification or evidence as to why they exist.

It provides just as much justification as the "it comes from god" line they use. Saying "it comes from god" doesn't provide justification or evidence as to why it exists- see how that can be spun around?

It is the same exact concept. It is not my fault they want to act superior and pretend that people who do not believe in god have no justification for natural rights. That is just them being ignorant.

They are called NATURAL rights for a reason.

 

[nbhadja]

You are right that Ron Paul would be disgusted with that, but that's actually not what he said at all. If I'm not mistaken, his views are much like mine. I believe everyone deserves rights because I believe God grants rights to all of his creation. However, if you think we are just the result of random chance, then there is no overarching morality, and your rights MUST come from government or else people will not respect your view and act on only what THEY think is right. Therefore, it follows that the power to enforce, the government, is the source of all of your rights. I came here because I don't think my rights come from government. I think Ron's views are very similar to mine on this because he realizes that rights must come from an authority greater than government in order to put any restraint on government.

Nature is greater than the government as well. It is greater than the constitution. '

Did I claim that I believe we are here by random chance? You are creating a false argument by assuming I am some evolution believer just like leftists assume the person they are arguing is a rightist and how a rightist assumes the person they are arguing with is a leftist.

I don't believe in a "god" but I believe in nature, and the universe. It is not as black and white as saying "he believes in god" or "he believes that we are here by random chance".

I am spiritual but I do not believe in god. Keep in mind that spirituality is much older than religion and does not require the belief in "god".

My rights come from nature. They are universal rights. They are natural rights. They do not come from the goverment or god. Government is a man made invention. I don't even believe in the concept of government or the constitution.

 

[Jim Casey]

Nature is greater than the government as well. It is greater than the constitution. '

Did I claim that I believe we are here by random chance? You are creating a false argument by assuming I am some evolution believer just like leftists assume the person they are arguing is a rightist and how a rightist assumes the person they are arguing with is a leftist.

I don't believe in a "god" but I believe in nature, and the universe. It is not as black and white as saying "he believes in god" or "he believes that we are here by random chance".

I am spiritual but I do not believe in god. Keep in mind that spirituality is much older than religion.

My rights come from nature. They are universal rights. They are natural rights. They do not come from the goverment or god. The government is a man made invention.

Nature is a universal dictatorship. The only freedoms we have are that which nature has governed as common. The only way to increase our individual liberty is to develop a societal architecture that facilitates increased options in decision making.

 

[AZKing]

Your worldview has a big impact on your actions, your behavior toward others, and the way you interpret things.

I certainly never argued that worldview is irrelevant. That would be stupid.

What I'm saying is that being theist does not inherently form your world view; a specific religion might contribute to it, but simply believing in a god does not. Simply not believing in a god does not inherently form your world view either. Belief in a god does not necessarily form the basis of why you live.

However, I think only the Bible has a firm rooting in reality.

I've read the Bible extensively and was raised in a strongly Christian household. I couldn't disagree more with that statement. But that's for another discussion.

 

[AZKing]

I really have to congratulate the secular state-education monopoly in this country. It has succeeded.

Ah yes, damn those secular schools for not forcing kids to read the Bible!

FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!!! YEA!!!!!!

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

It provides just as much justification as the "it comes from god" line they use. Saying "it comes from god" doesn't provide justification or evidence as to why it exists- see how that can be spun around?

It is the same exact concept. It is not my fault they want to act superior and pretend that people who do not believe in god have no justification for natural rights. That is just them being ignorant.

They are called NATURAL rights for a reason.

In my mind, I'm not sure a rational case can be made for their existence, but I would argue that society functions better, more justly, and more intelligently in a society which conducts itself as if there are natural rights and codifies them into the legislative framework.

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

This guy is our creator? What/???

The flying spaghetti monster?

I find it really cheapens any sort of theological discussion when things like this are brought up. You can disagree with people without belittling them.

 

[nbhadja]

Nature is a universal dictatorship. The only freedoms we have are that which nature has governed as common. The only way to increase our individual liberty is to develop a societal architecture that facilitates increased options in decision making.

Nature is not a dictatorship. Nature is just nature. It is anarchy. There were many indigenous tribes who were spiritual, but did not believe in a god. Where they not free? Of course they were free. They were more free than any American ever was, including back in the founders days.

 

[Ex Lux lucis]

Nature is not a dictatorship. Nature is just nature. It is anarchy. There were many indigenous tribes who were spiritual, but did not believe in a god. Where they not free? Of course they were free. They were more free than any American ever was, including back in the founders days.

I think you are glorifying things a bit. I don't think the individual would have been as free in those times as he was in the founder's era.