Relevance of 1860 war in Today's Political Climate?

raiha

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Nov 15, 2007
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Just to explain my alien presence on a site that many of you probably think I have no right to be on. I have thought I should mind my own business and stick to the International Forum. But your U.S. politics affect me and my children and my grandchildren, only we don’t get to choose a candidate. So please be patient with me.

In my efforts to understand why the U.S.A. conducts itself on the world stage in the bellicose way that it does, I was led to an in-depth study of the so called Civil War.
I came to realize that this terrible tragedy that had happened ONLY 150 YEARS ago, was a MAJOR factor in determining your subsequent behaviour as a nation internationally and nationally.
I pin much of the mess you find yourselves in today on the lapels of the Great Imposter himself.

WHY IS THE WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE RELEVANT IN TODAY’S POLITICAL CLIMATE AND TODAY’S WORLD?

1. Lincoln ignored the U.S. Constitution to fight an illegal war. Illegal because he did not consult Congress! For those who insist the South started the war at Sumter, remember Lincoln secretly attempted to land troops at Fort Pickens in Florida in violation of a truce existing between the Federals and Confederates. He made Karl Rove look like an amateur in the Dirty Tricks Department when he tricked the South Carolinans to fire the first shot at Fort Sumter (which they tried to apologize for) He started the precedent of pre-emptive war (except it was worse given his was fratricidal).

2. He said contradictory things to different audiences, thereby normalizing the concept of ‘spin.’

3.He is the father of the all-controlling national state. His ideology was spawned out of Hamiltonian Whiggery ie mercantilism. Here, in all its glory, is the blueprint for your runaway corporate imperialistic mayhem.

4. He centralized the banking system.Would the banksters have had as much power tody if the concept of state sovereignty had been allowed to evolve?

5. He printed paper money. The Founding Fathers were against this (apart from Mr Hamilton) He nationalized this system which is inherently inflationary.

6. He lay the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

7. He ignored the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

8. He illegally declared martial law.

9. He illegally suspended habeus corpus (Guantanamo Bay and maybe FEMA camps coming up!!)

10. He confiscated private property and firearms. (Is it true that the FBI raided Liberty Dollar and swiped your hard drive?)

11. He systematically attacked Northern newspapers and their employees including by imprisonment. Today it is via the “soft” attack. You may suddenly be “unemployed” if you are too outspoken as a 'man of words.'

12. He interfered with and rigged elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North. (Not that THAT would happen today of course)

13. He censored all telegraph communication. Watch out for that Patriot Act

14. Burning and plundering Southern cities. (Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food ...happens today except we have the added 'bonuses' of progress such as depleted uranium, napalm and cluster bombs)

15. Reaping an enormous political patronage system.

16. Normalizing an atmosphere where large numbers of rapes against Southern women including slaves took place. Wherever you have military forces you have prostitution, venereal disease etc. Today we have Abu Ghraib where Iraqi female prisoners were raped by US soldiers not to mention numerous other horrors.

17. Creating the federal tax bureau.

18. In today's world Lincoln would have had to go to trial for war crimes. "Had the Confederates somehow won, had their victory put them in position to bring their chief opponents before some sort of tribunal, they would have found themselves justified...in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against noncombatants."
Lee Kennett, "Marching through Georgia: A Life of William Tecumeseh Sherman", p. 286.

These are just the points relevant to today gleaned from Thomas DiLorenzo primarily but substantiated by other writers including lawyer James Ostrowski who posts on LewRockwell.com. Ostrowski drew out several of these points in another article. I have painstakingly checked DiLorenzo's sources over the last year and a half as he has been discredited by people in the Heritage Foundation and the Lincoln Institute as being inaccurate. As an independent researcher on the subject I vouch for DiLorenzo's integrity.

Tim Russert's attempt to publically ridicule Dr Paul has given us a golden opportunity to turn it back on him in a homoeopathic kind of way.
 
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Annie is that really you? You have a beautiful smile! After seeing that and reading your post above I am in love!

Did I ever tell you what Bruadair means?

and by the by Don't let me hear you call yourself "an alien presence" You may not be American but you are sho nuf Southern!
 
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Just to explain my alien presence on a site that many of you probably think I have no right to be on.


America needs the help of our friends worldwide right now. Some would say we won't be able to do it without you. And the message of liberty should not just be spread again in our own country.

You are not only welcome here but we have a forum just for you and others from abroad:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181
 
he has been discredited by people in the Heritage Foundation and the Lincoln Institute as being inaccurate. As an independent researcher on the subject I vouch for DiLorenzo's integrity.

I didn't read his book yet cause it has been riduculed as inaccurate and what not. How did you find all the sources? Didn't he source his work?

Also, I heard "The Real Lincoln", by Charles L.C. Minor, was pretty much all first-hand information - all from Northerners. Though, It's hard to get the book since it is not really popular.
 
Yes O'Bruadair(I have a feeling you are going to tell me what it means:) )- Possum unmasked... I needed to identify myself for my Meet-Up group!

Ozzy, I either bought his sources or got them out of the library. Usually the issues the critics had problems with were nit-picky or completely false. For example he would cite David Donald. Then the detractor (Jaffa-ite) would complain vehemently that DiLorenzo had made it up. I would find the exact statement in another edition. That kind of thing. Yes he got the edition wrong once but i would draw the line at that being a reason to call what he wrote shoddy scholarship. I never found what they would call distortions. They said he was quoting out of context and his citations should have been longer. But well, he wasn't trying to write an encyclopaedia.
The other thing to bear in mind, DiLorenzo is an economics Professor, not an historian. Which means he was able to understand what Lincoln was up to from a fiscal point of view. A point his critics seem to miss. My only criticism, academically speaking, was that he was emotional. Outraged! But I thoroughly enjoyed that aspect, after I took my academic cap off.

It is a case of anyone who dares to be an iconoclast has to be very resilient. The Lincolnian Golden Boy myth is sacrosanct in your country and it will take an iconoclastic army to dismantle it. Hmmm I sense the makings of one in this very forum!!!

thanks Hard@work at 2am i noticed. I've been there but i don't seem to be able to stay put!!
 
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Yes O'Bruadair(I have a feeling you are going to tell me what it means:) )- Possum unmasked... I needed to identify myself for my Meet-Up group!

Ozzy, I either bought his sources or got them out of the library. Usually the issues the critics had problems with were nit-picky or completely false. For example he would cite David Donald. Then the detractor (Jaffa-ite) would complain vehemently that DiLorenzo had made it up. I would find the exact statement in another edition. That kind of thing. Yes he got the edition wrong once but i would draw the line at that being a reason to call what he wrote shoddy scholarship. I never found what i would call distortions. They said he was quoting out of context and his citations should have been longer. But well, he wasn't trying to write an encyclopaedia.

It is a case of anyone who dares to be an iconoclast has to be very resilient. The Lincolnian Golden Boy myth is sacrosanct in your country and it will take an iconoclastic army to dismantle it. Hmmm I sense the makings of one in this very forum!!!

thanks Hard@work at 2am i noticed. I've been there but i don't seem to be able to stay put!!

Which is better, The Real Lincoln, or Lincoln Unmasked? It seems like The Real Lincoln was read more and had more reviews. Also, I provided the link to the original "The Real Lincoln", scan through that and tell me what you think.
 
Just to explain my alien presence on a site that many of you probably think I have no right to be on. I have thought I should mind my own business and stick to the International Forum. But your U.S. politics affect me and my children and my grandchildren, only we don’t get to choose a candidate. So please be patient with me.

In my efforts to understand why the U.S.A. conducts itself on the world stage in the bellicose way that it does, I was led to an in-depth study of the so called Civil War.
I came to realize that this terrible tragedy that had happened ONLY 150 YEARS ago, was a MAJOR factor in determining your subsequent behaviour as a nation internationally and nationally.
I pin much of the mess you find yourselves in today on the lapels of the Great Imposter himself.

WHY IS THE WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE RELEVANT IN TODAY’S POLITICAL CLIMATE AND TODAY’S WORLD?

1. Lincoln ignored the U.S. Constitution to fight an illegal war. Illegal because he did not consult Congress! For those who insist the South started the war at Sumter, remember Lincoln secretly attempted to land troops at Fort Pickens in Florida in violation of a truce existing between the Federals and Confederates. He made Karl Rove look like an amateur in the Dirty Tricks Department when he tricked the South Carolinans to fire the first shot at Fort Sumter (which they tried to apologize for) He started the precedent of pre-emptive war (except it was worse given his was fratricidal).

2. He said contradictory things to different audiences, thereby normalizing the concept of ‘spin.’

3.He is the father of the all-controlling national state. His ideology was spawned out of Hamiltonian Whiggery ie mercantilism. Here, in all its glory, is the blueprint for your runaway corporate imperialistic mayhem.

4. He centralized the banking system.Would the banksters have had as much power tody if the concept of state sovereignty had been allowed to evolve?

5. He printed paper money. The Founding Fathers were against this (apart from Mr Hamilton) He nationalized this system which is inherently inflationary.

6. He lay the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

7. He ignored the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

8. He illegally declared martial law.

9. He illegally suspended habeus corpus (Guantanamo Bay and maybe FEMA camps coming up!!)

10. He confiscated private property and firearms. (Is it true that the FBI raided Liberty Dollar and swiped your hard drive?)

11. He systematically attacked Northern newspapers and their employees including by imprisonment. Today it is via the “soft” attack. You may suddenly be “unemployed” if you are too outspoken as a 'man of words.'

12. He interfered with and rigged elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North. (Not that THAT would happen today of course)

13. He censored all telegraph communication. Watch out for that Patriot Act

14. Burning and plundering Southern cities. (Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food ...happens today except we have the added 'bonuses' of progress such as depleted uranium, napalm and cluster bombs)

15. Reaping an enormous political patronage system.

16. Normalizing an atmosphere where large numbers of rapes against Southern women including slaves took place. Wherever you have military forces you have prostitution, venereal disease etc. Today we have Abu Ghraib where Iraqi female prisoners were raped by US soldiers not to mention numerous other horrors.

17. Creating the federal tax bureau.

18. In today's world Lincoln would have had to go to trial for war crimes. "Had the Confederates somehow won, had their victory put them in position to bring their chief opponents before some sort of tribunal, they would have found themselves justified...in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against noncombatants."
Lee Kennett, "Marching through Georgia: A Life of William Tecumeseh Sherman", p. 286.

These are just the points relevant to today gleaned from Thomas DiLorenzo primarily but substantiated by other writers including lawyer James Ostrowski who posts on LewRockwell.com. Ostrowski drew out several of these points in another article. I have painstakingly checked DiLorenzo's sources over the last year and a half as he has been discredited by people in the Heritage Foundation and the Lincoln Institute as being inaccurate. As an independent researcher on the subject I vouch for DiLorenzo's integrity.

Tim Russert's attempt to publically ridicule Dr Paul has given us a golden opportunity to turn it back on him in a homoeopathic kind of way.

Thank you for your input on Lincoln and the Civil War. You have clarity concerning the war because you do not have years of brainwashing in our public schools and the emotional distraction of the slavery issue to fog up your understanding.

If I had the power I would make you an honorary American citizen. Since I do not have that power I will make you an honorary American citizen in my heart. I am a son of the South (North Carolina) and have experienced first hand some of the lingering affects of the Civil War. I am my families Genealogist. During my research I came across documents that showed the brutal hardships that my ancestors had to endure resulting from the war that Lincoln and other tyrants forced on them. Everything of material value was stolen and much of the rest was destroyed. My great grandfather buried his saw mill equipment in the ground to keep it out of the hands of the Federal government. When I read those accounts, I cried.

The economy in the South has rebounded whereas it is no longer the weak underdog it once was. I truly believe it is time for the truth to be heard and history be recorded based on the facts. I would like to see the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC (a Federal god) be moved to the trash heap. Please continue your participation on this web site. You are a true patriot!
 
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Just to explain my alien presence on a site that many of you probably think I have no right to be on. I have thought I should mind my own business and stick to the International Forum. But your U.S. politics affect me and my children and my grandchildren, only we don’t get to choose a candidate. So please be patient with me.

In my efforts to understand why the U.S.A. conducts itself on the world stage in the bellicose way that it does, I was led to an in-depth study of the so called Civil War.
I came to realize that this terrible tragedy that had happened ONLY 150 YEARS ago, was a MAJOR factor in determining your subsequent behaviour as a nation internationally and nationally.
I pin much of the mess you find yourselves in today on the lapels of the Great Imposter himself.

WHY IS THE WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE RELEVANT IN TODAY’S POLITICAL CLIMATE AND TODAY’S WORLD?

1. Lincoln ignored the U.S. Constitution to fight an illegal war. Illegal because he did not consult Congress! For those who insist the South started the war at Sumter, remember Lincoln secretly attempted to land troops at Fort Pickens in Florida in violation of a truce existing between the Federals and Confederates. He made Karl Rove look like an amateur in the Dirty Tricks Department when he tricked the South Carolinans to fire the first shot at Fort Sumter (which they tried to apologize for) He started the precedent of pre-emptive war (except it was worse given his was fratricidal).

2. He said contradictory things to different audiences, thereby normalizing the concept of ‘spin.’

3.He is the father of the all-controlling national state. His ideology was spawned out of Hamiltonian Whiggery ie mercantilism. Here, in all its glory, is the blueprint for your runaway corporate imperialistic mayhem.

4. He centralized the banking system.Would the banksters have had as much power tody if the concept of state sovereignty had been allowed to evolve?

5. He printed paper money. The Founding Fathers were against this (apart from Mr Hamilton) He nationalized this system which is inherently inflationary.

6. He lay the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

7. He ignored the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

8. He illegally declared martial law.

9. He illegally suspended habeus corpus (Guantanamo Bay and maybe FEMA camps coming up!!)

10. He confiscated private property and firearms. (Is it true that the FBI raided Liberty Dollar and swiped your hard drive?)

11. He systematically attacked Northern newspapers and their employees including by imprisonment. Today it is via the “soft” attack. You may suddenly be “unemployed” if you are too outspoken as a 'man of words.'

12. He interfered with and rigged elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North. (Not that THAT would happen today of course)

13. He censored all telegraph communication. Watch out for that Patriot Act

14. Burning and plundering Southern cities. (Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food ...happens today except we have the added 'bonuses' of progress such as depleted uranium, napalm and cluster bombs)

15. Reaping an enormous political patronage system.

16. Normalizing an atmosphere where large numbers of rapes against Southern women including slaves took place. Wherever you have military forces you have prostitution, venereal disease etc. Today we have Abu Ghraib where Iraqi female prisoners were raped by US soldiers not to mention numerous other horrors.

17. Creating the federal tax bureau.

18. In today's world Lincoln would have had to go to trial for war crimes. "Had the Confederates somehow won, had their victory put them in position to bring their chief opponents before some sort of tribunal, they would have found themselves justified...in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against noncombatants."
Lee Kennett, "Marching through Georgia: A Life of William Tecumeseh Sherman", p. 286.

These are just the points relevant to today gleaned from Thomas DiLorenzo primarily but substantiated by other writers including lawyer James Ostrowski who posts on LewRockwell.com. Ostrowski drew out several of these points in another article. I have painstakingly checked DiLorenzo's sources over the last year and a half as he has been discredited by people in the Heritage Foundation and the Lincoln Institute as being inaccurate. As an independent researcher on the subject I vouch for DiLorenzo's integrity.

Tim Russert's attempt to publically ridicule Dr Paul has given us a golden opportunity to turn it back on him in a homoeopathic kind of way.

Someone that 'gets it'. Hallelujah!
 
Seen this Raiha?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/katz/katz21.html

Seems you ain't the only foreigner that would like his/her two cents worth. If they were all as level-headed and independent minded as you are damned if I wouldn’t give em a vote in our elections if I could too!

They ain’t of course, not any more than all Americans are. Sadly most Americans have swallowed the lies and half-truths that passes for “history” in our government schools and universities.

If Ron Paul don’t accomplish anything else he is very eloquently and succinctly pointing out that the “emperor has no clothes” (and I like you think at least some Americans are starting to see that the bastard is nekkid and has been for a long time!)
 
Ozzy, they are both 'must reads.' "The Real Lincoln" is the foundation book really and i think he may well have written the latter as a critique of the many critiques he copped! There is a great section in "Lincoln Unmasked" along the lines of "Books The Lincoln Cult do not want you to read." Then you have to go and get all of them! Exhausting business! I'll follow up your link later. i'm recovering from a strenuous letter writing attack on Fox News.

Roger this is great. I'll copy some of it for people who have not opened the link.

Luis Jorge Borges is cited. He was a contemporary famous Argentinian writer who didn't think a whole heap about Lincoln either. He said:

" Borges created a surprise in declaring that he considered Abraham Lincoln "the greatest war criminal of the 19th century." According to him, the War of Secession was only motivated by the desire of the Federal power to recover the taxes of the southern states, which obviously no longer entered the cash registers of Washington. Asked about the importance of the cause defended, to abolish slavery, he asked if slavery were abolished 20 or 30 years earlier in the South justified the death of more than 600,000 men and the mutilation of several thousands of others."

I might make it a project to compile a list of famous, respectable, credible people (not erstwhile crackpots like us... and Dr Paul) who disdained Lincoln...you know Charles Dickens, Borges etc and get it published!!
It'd be quite easy to do with the help of Mr Google!
 
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Might be worthwhile to do the opposite too! That is compile a list of people who praised him and/or his ideas.

At the top two on the list would be Karl Marx, who called ole abe “that single minded son of the working class” and Adolph Hitler, who used abe’s actions and philosophy to justify the suppression of the rights of the German people.
 
Deo Vindice Madame

Dear Friend of Dixie:

As a proud United Daughter of the Confederacy, I salute you, Madame!

Thank you kindly for telling the truth of us Southrons.

Deo Vindice,

Celtic Kajira
 
3.He is the father of the all-controlling national state. His ideology was spawned out of Hamiltonian Whiggery ie mercantilism. Here, in all its glory, is the blueprint for your runaway corporate imperialistic mayhem.

4. He centralized the banking system.Would the banksters have had as much power tody if the concept of state sovereignty had been allowed to evolve?

5. He printed paper money. The Founding Fathers were against this (apart from Mr Hamilton) He nationalized this system which is inherently inflationary.

6. He lay the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

7. He ignored the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.



Hamiltonians mixed with the hegelian dialect are THE problem. They got us into this mess.
 
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