RECLAIM AUSTRALIA; Marchers across Australia against Islam

[tod evans]

So... you don't differentiate between secular democracies and religious dictatorships that execute ppl for innocent acts like leaving or criticizing the state religion? Its all the same? Because its a form of statism, we shouldn't discuss it as if its a distinguishable ideology? Sharia law is identical to communism, fascism, American federalism, western democracies, etc., everything is the same?

I don't think so. In a lot of countries we'd be killed for having this conversation about Islam. Its not all the same.

I'm not asking you to believe as I do.

Merely stating that handling either extremest in the proscribed manner would be an effective deterrent to poor behavior.

Although I do find it interesting that you'd differentiate between being stomped by a government boot or a muslim boot...

 

[OReich]

I'm not asking you to believe as I do.

Merely stating that handling either extremest in the proscribed manner would be an effective deterrent to poor behavior.

Although I do find it interesting that you'd differentiate between being stomped by a government boot or a muslim boot...

No, I'm differentiating between living in a country that allows me to live despite denouncing and criticizing religion, and a country that would kill me for doing those things. A country that lets me have premarital sex, a country that would execute me for it. A country that allows ppl to criticize its govenrment and have some say (however minimal) in its affairs, and a country that would kill me for criticizing it. A country that allows me to type this post, and a country that would execute me for it. Not every political ideology is the same. Its distinguishable. You may think the US constitution is meaningless shit, but I don't. There are literally thousands of Jihadists trying to kill me for being Jewish and/or atheists. I differentiate between ppl trying to kill me and ppl not trying to kill me. No offense meant to jihadists.

You're just acting like a leftist, you're accusing me of bigotry for criticizing bigotry.

 

[tod evans]

No, I'm differentiating between living in a country that allows me to live despite denouncing an criticIng religion, and a country that would kill me for doing those things. A country that lets me have premarital sex, a country that would execute me for it. A country that allows ppl to criticize its govenrment and have some say (however minimal) in its affairs, and a country that would kill me for criticizing it. A country that allows me to type this post, and a country that would execute me for it. Not every political ideology is the same. Its distinguishable.

You seem to want to discuss ideology when you've singled out a post I made that addresses extremists...

Have you ever had occasion to look into the jacked-up roided out eyes of a SWAT kop?

I have, I have not however, looked into the eyes of a religious extremist (unless you count evangelicals), but I cannot imagine them being any more out of it than the government employees kicking in doors across the country tonight.

You'll need to find someone else to discuss ideologies with but I'll be happy to discuss how to deal with their behavior when they become aggressive....

 

[OReich]

You seem to want to discuss ideology when you've singled out a post I made that addresses extremists...

Have you ever had occasion to look into the jacked-up roided out eyes of a SWAT kop?

I have, I have not however, looked into the eyes of a religious extremist (unless you count evangelicals), but I cannot imagine them being any more out of it than the government employees kicking in doors across the country tonight.

You'll need to find someone else to discuss ideologies with but I'll be happy to discuss how to deal with their behavior when they become aggressive....

You repeatedly state that you have an issue with talking about Islamic political ideology. You keep saying it shouldn't be differentiated from statism/government in general, and that its "interesting" that I would care about a "government boot" versus a "Muslim boot." Islam is a specific political ideology. Talking about it is not being unfair, or bigoted, or making a lot out of nothing. Its a real ideology with adherents and everything, they control tons of territory. I don't have any issue with your complaints about the US government or law enforcement or w/e. You're the one saying we shouldn't discuss Islam/radical Islam, and that its just statism and that's that. There's nothing wrong with identifying an ideology that motivates ppl to do bad things. We're not saying its the only bad ideology on Earth. You're just accusing ppl of bigotry for criticizing bigotry.

 

[tod evans]

You repeatedly state that you have an issue with talking about Islamic political ideology. You keep saying it shouldn't be differentiated from statism/government in general, and that its "interesting" that I would care about a "government boot" versus a "Muslim boot." Islam is a specific political ideology. Talking about it is not being unfair, or bigoted, or making a lot out of nothing. Its a real ideology with adherents and everything, they control tons of territory. I don't have any issue with your complaints about the US government or law enforcement or w/e. You're the one saying we shouldn't discuss Islam/radical Islam, and that its just statism and that's that. There's nothing wrong with identifying an ideology that motivates ppl to do bad things. We're not saying its the only bad ideology on Earth. You're just accusing ppl of bigotry for criticizing bigotry.

Look dude if you want to talk about Muslims kicking in doors and assaulting people on the street my position is consistent, if it's Baptists doing the assaulting I'm right there, same position, Catholics, Buddhists, atheists same....

Thing is I don't give a shit why they're behaving wrongly, only that they are.

As for "bigotry".........

If you want to delve into why crazy people are crazy then have at it....Nietzsche said something about looking into the abyss....

 

[OReich]

Look dude if you want to talk about Muslims kicking in doors and assaulting people on the street my position is consistent, if it's Baptists doing the assaulting I'm right there, same position, Catholics, Buddhists, atheists same....

Thing is I don't give a shit why they're behaving wrongly, only that they are.

As for "bigotry".........

If you want to delve into why crazy people are crazy then have at it....Nietzsche said something about looking into the abyss....

yes, violence and bigotry of all kinds is horrible. that's why ppl talk about radical islam and sharia law. the problem is that you criticize ppl for identifying it as a unique ideology. you say you wont differentiate it from govt in general. do you say the same when ppl talk about communism, fascism, socialism, etc.? that all statist philosphies shouldn't be differentiated? you again deny the philosophy itself bycomparing it to different reliegious beleivers or atheist commiting violence. you fundamentally ignore the key issue: ideology. no one is saying that every muslim act of violence is religiously based. but there are a huge amount of muslim states, organizations and individuals that do commit acts of violence, and cite islam as their justification (and the quran and hadith literally endorse the vast majority of the things they say).

so you can pretend that everytime a muslim kills a non-muslim while screaming "allahu ahkbar" is the same as a muslim or anyone else killing someone for some other reason. we're talking about an ideology. you're just subscribing to this leftist narrative that its intolerant to discuss islamic extremism. its not. its an insult to ppl being murdered by islamists to simply defame ppl for talking about islamism. its fine to say its just as evil as other forms of violence, because it is just as evil. but talking about islam specifically isn't this unfair singling out, its a unique issue worth talking about.

muhammad literally promised to kill all the jews in the hadith, and said nasty things about them in the quran, and there are millions of ppl educated to hate jews because of this. is it intolerant to discuss this? i dont think so.

 

[tod evans]

yes, violence and bigotry of all kinds is horrible. that's why ppl talk about radical islam and sharia law. the problem is that you criticize ppl for identifying it as a unique ideology. you say you wont differentiate it from govt in general. do you say the same when ppl talk about communism, fascism, socialism, etc.? that all statist philosphies shouldn't be differentiated? you again deny the philosophy itself bycomparing it to different reliegious beleivers or atheist commiting violence. you fundamentally ignore the key issue: ideology. no one is saying that every muslim act of violence is religiously based. but there are a huge amount of muslim states, organizations and individuals that do commit acts of violence, and cite islam as their justification (and the quran and hadith literally endorse the vast majority of the things they say).

so you can pretend that everytime a muslim kills a non-muslim while screaming "allahu ahkbar" is the same as a muslim or anyone else killing someone for some other reason. we're talking about an ideology. you're just subscribing to this leftist narrative that its intolerant to discuss islamic extremism. its not. its an insult to ppl being murdered by islamists to simply defame ppl for talking about islamism. its fine to say its just as evil as other forms of violence, because it is just as evil. but talking about islam specifically isn't this unfair singling out, its a unique issue worth talking about.

You seem to be a tad obsessed.......

It's also apparent to anyone reading that you've take liberties in ascribing characteristics to me that I haven't set forth in this discourse.

Have a nice evening and watch out for those evil Muslims.......

(Even though your life is 1000 times more likely to be ruined by government agents)

 

[OReich]

You seem to be a tad obsessed.......

It's also apparent to anyone reading that you've take liberties in ascribing characteristics to me that I haven't set forth in this discourse.

Have a nice evening and watch out for those evil Muslims.......

(Even though your life is 1000 times more likely to be ruined by government agents)

What is your argument? That people shouldn't talk about this? Seriously, what's your problem here? You don't disagree with anything being said, you just think its wrong to say it? You seem obsessed too, no? You're talking out loud and saying what you think, I guess you're obsessed! No one here is saying its the worst threat in the history of the universe.

 

[tod evans]

What is your argument? That people shouldn't talk about this? Seriously, what's your problem here? You don't disagree with anything being said, you just think its wrong to say it?

I've already told you that I'm not the guy to discuss ideologies with.

There is no problem on my part.

 

[osan]

So... you don't differentiate between secular democracies and religious dictatorships that execute ppl for innocent acts like leaving or criticizing the state religion? Its all the same?

At the extreme fringes of circumstance, they are precisely the same. In the average case, the differences may at times be far more notable. But when you strip away considerations of degree and focus on the primal nature of each, they are very much the same. The main differences lie in the trappings and the degrees to which violence is applied. Certainly we can say that one may be far less onerous than the other in the average case, but once the heat begins to rise, these seemingly widely varying systems converge in outward behaviors far more quickly than one might think. At the end of the day a dead body is a dead body, it often meaning little under whose system of tyranny it came to that state non-humanity.

Because its a form of statism, we shouldn't discuss it as if its a distinguishable ideology?

Depends on the context of the discussion at hand. If we are speaking in terms of pure, base architecture, I assert that there is no principled difference. Tyranny is tyranny, whether mild or wild.

Sharia law is identical to communism, fascism, American federalism, western democracies, etc., everything is the same?

At the level of fundamental nature, you bet they are. One man presumes to master another and is willing to injure or kill him in the event of a failure to comply. That is the root architecture of all tyranny. Everything else is mere detail.

Its not all the same.

Yes, but only superficially so in terms of nature. The depth shows itself only in degree, which is a relevant difference in practical terms but makes no difference to the fact that one is still living under tyranny.

There is not a single nation to which you could point that is not tyrannical. NOT ONE. If you can refer me to such a nation, I will eat my hat, thank you kindly, and make all good haste to move there as soon as materially possible.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Ok, how whould you solve muslims extremism?

How about keeping them out?

How about prosecuting those who commit crimes (as opposed to deporting everyone who happens to belong to the same group)?

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

How about prosecuting those who commit crimes (as opposed to deporting everyone who happens to belong to the same group)?

Under certain circumstances, I'd have agreed with you totally but.....

Ok, let's say, what if we were arguing about keeping out neo-nazi immigrants, who look up to Hitler, & intend to take over countries by very high rates of reproduction by leeching off of the local welfare?

You know, Muhammed was a warlord, killer & enslaver of non-muslims, misogynist, pedophile, etc etc, & muslims look up to this guy, who was just as bad or worse than Hitler, & combine that with very very high rates of reproduction by muslims, & you are looking at our future generations (if they aren't killed off already) living under Islamic Sharia Law as second-class citizens, being raped & enslaved by muslims! All of our modern modern values, all of the libertarian values will be kicked to the curb!

(see the previous page of this thread for more videos about how Islamic immigration is wreaking havoc in each of the European countries that let them in)

Although the number of violent terrorists is definitely close to what Sheuer is saying (5-10%), its worth pointing out that the vast majority of Middle Easterners/North Africans support Sharia law, and with moderate-to-majority support in other Muslim majority countries, that would mean that roughly half of all Muslims believe in Sharia law. I know many libertarian "anti-impieralists" refuse to comprehend what Sharia law really is, but its a political system, not a personal lifestyle. I think its awesome that peaceful Muslims have reinterpreted it to be personal or voluntary, just as Jewish law has lost its connection to statehood/violence, but that doesn't change the reality of Muslims worlwide. Islamism/Islamic statism/Sharia law is horrible. Executing ppl for criticizing or leaving Islam, or for being gay, or adultery, or being raped (because it'll be considered adultery, since womens' testimony is worth half of a man's) is horrible, and yet roughly half of all Muslims support it. That's bad.

So when terrorists commit acts of violence in the West, they're Sharia law vigilantes, they're pissed that they need to take Islam into their own hands because the state won't do it for them (like in every Muslim majority country ever). I'm not condemning peaceful, secular Muslims at all; Christianity and Judaism used to be extremely statist/imperialistic/violent as well, secular Muslims are just like the vast majority of non-Muslims. And frankly, Sharia law states who execute ppl for innocent shit are just as evil as any terrorist, even if its not our business.

+1

This is the thing. People look at "moderate" muslims & they think it's ok to let them in but the thing is that because Islam is such a vile political ideology that even their future generations can move towards extremism (as many many Western-born extremist muslims have already demonstrated); & on top of that, as you've pointed out, it's not a few extremists but even the "moderate" muslims support Sharia Law, which shouldn't be surprising because for them it's the Law of the Allah.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I've already told you that I'm not the guy to discuss ideologies with.

There is no problem on my part.

At the extreme fringes of circumstance, they are precisely the same.

Guys, I could be wrong but I think what OReich wants to say is that politically correct people & Leftists in general try to downplay Islamic extremism by saying that these extremists are the outliers & therefore it's ok to let muslims into our countries so long as we exclude the extremist ones.....which obviously wouldn't be the wisest thing to do because Islam is violent political ideology in itself, led by a heinous individual as Muhammed, & therefore we must oppose all Islamic immigration (otherwise with their very high rates of reproduction, they can take over countries in a couple of generations!)

In other words, if we say that Islamic extremism is the same as any other form of extremism then it's like saying that we're ok with letting in "moderate muslims" (because they aren't extremists) but we must realize that Islam as a whole ideology is extremist (just like statism I guess).

 

[tod evans]

Guys, I could be wrong but I think what OReich wants to say is that politically correct people & Leftists in general try to downplay Islamic extremism by saying that these extremists are the outliers & therefore it's ok to let muslims into our countries so long as we exclude the extremist ones.....which obviously wouldn't be the wisest thing to do because Islam is violent political ideology in itself, led by a heinous individual as Muhammed, & therefore we must oppose all Islamic immigration (otherwise with their very high rates of reproduction, they can take over countries in a couple of generations!)

In other words, if we say that Islamic extremism is the same as any other form of extremism then it's like saying that we're ok with letting in "moderate muslims" (because they aren't extremists) but we must realize that Islam as a whole ideology is extremist (just like statism I guess).

"We" aren't letting in anyone, "we" aren't feeding and housing anyone, government is.

The same damn government that demands a portion of your income to pay itself to wage war and import voters.

This idea that terrorists are only imports is pretty naive.

And.............If your little friend is accusing either osan or myself of being either P/C or leftist he'd be well served to spend more time reading than posting..

The fact that he's posting about some foreign religion like he actually has firsthand knowledge is a dead give a way that he's been sponging Tee-Vee newz, which is just government propaganda itself.

I've never seen a real live Muslim out here in the Ozarks, wouldn't know one if it bit me in the ass.

Which leads me to another conclusion, that the poster you reference probably lives in a city.

So this leaves a city dweller, who believes the Tee-Vee, trying to get me to discuss his impression of what he believes....

If I'm going to sit and type fantasy/make believe shit I'm going to do so with a woman I find attractive not some swinging dick on a politics board....

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

The fact that he's posting about some foreign religion like he actually has firsthand knowledge is a dead give a way that he's been sponging Tee-Vee newz, which is just government propaganda itself.

So you think Islam is benign? Or are you saying you don't know enough about it to make a call? Or simply don't care about it either way? (just asking)

 

[tod evans]

So you think Islam is benign? Or are you saying you don't know enough about it to make a call? Or simply don't care about it either way? (just asking)

I don't know and don't really care, there are thousands of government goons kicking down doors and ruining lives every day in this country and some folks want to focus on some foreign religions practitioners....

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I don't know and don't really care, there are thousands of government goons kicking down doors and ruining lives every day in this country and some folks want to focus on some foreign religions practitioners....

Does that make sense to you?

As someone who more or less identifies as a voluntaryist, I totally "get" you that the government is the biggest problem, especially from the American viewpoint but that doesn't mean there aren't other problems out there, real or potential. And, personally, I wouldn't care about what muslims (or whomever) do in their own countries but in a world with increasing geopolitical mobility, muslims will become a global problem at some point in time in the future (as if they already aren't!), & although they don't affect America at the moment, I think an Islamic Europe or an Islamic world isn't going to be a good thing for free people anywhere in the world because the more Islam spreads, the more power it gains, the more of a threat it will pose to liberty. Obviously, I don't support unnecessary wars in the middle-east or elsewhere as I've already said in my earlier posts but it's just my view that spreading awareness about Islam is important to advance the cause of liberty.

Nonetheless, if you wish to focus solely on the problem of the government then I respect that.

 

[Ender]

As someone who more or less identifies as a voluntaryist, I totally "get" you that the government is the biggest problem, especially from the American viewpoint but that doesn't mean there aren't other problems out there, real or potential. And, personally, I wouldn't care about what muslims (or whomever) do in their own countries but in a world with increasing geopolitical mobility, muslims will become a global problem at some point in time in the future (as if they already aren't!), & although they don't affect America at the moment, I think an Islamic Europe or an Islamic world isn't going to be a good thing for free people anywhere in the world because the more Islam spreads, the more power it gains, the more of a threat it will pose to liberty. Obviously, I don't support unnecessary wars in the middle-east or elsewhere as I've already said in my earlier posts but it's just my view that spreading awareness about Islam is important to advance the cause of liberty.

Nonetheless, if you wish to focus solely on the problem of the government then I respect that.

WHAT free people? Can you name any?

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

WHAT free people? Can you name any?

Look, Tod Evans said he doesn't care about muslims because they are over there & that government is the bigger problem on our hands at the moment & he's right about that but my view is that even IF (big IF for now) we could free ourselves from the government but in the meantime, Europe or even rest of the world is gripped by Islam then that mayn't necessarily be a good thing for us either. So that's what I meant, not that I'm saying that there are any "free" people RIGHT NOW (but then some might say that some of the people in Africa, who are living without a government are "free" but of course, that's a different topic altogether).

 

[Zippyjuan]

How about prosecuting those who commit crimes (as opposed to deporting everyone who happens to belong to the same group)?

There are 1.67 BILLION muslims in the world. How many of them are terrorists? Should we ban every religion where somebody associated with that religion commits a crime? What about political ideology? There would be nobody left.

Plus we need a bigger government security apparatus to track everything everybody does to be sure nobody is being a "radical" and evict them.