Reason Magazine supports forced vaccinations; "no libertarian case for vaccine refusal"

[PRB]

Ah, good one- the guy embezzled a few million from CDC for his "studies", but that has nothing to do with his otherwise honest findings. Uh. Huh.

AnyHoo-

because we don't need him to disprove the link between autism and MMR or thimerisol, the link has been proven NOWHERE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT FOR PEOPLE WHO BUY WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

 

[Ender]

because we don't need him to disprove the link between autism and MMR or thimerisol, the link has been proven NOWHERE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT FOR PEOPLE WHO BUY WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

I've never read WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

And there are definite links between vaccinations and many diseases.

 

[rambone]

The number of people who experience a severe allergic reaction with similar side effects (convulsions, coma, death) to the MMR is less than 1 in a million. The effects are literally so rare they can't even be totally sure they are actually side effects to vaccines.

Nobody dismisses them "offhand." The evidence overwhelming indicates that the odds of serious side effects from vaccines is .0000006, if I remember correctly. If you take the flu vaccine out of the equation, it's even less. And the side effects are so rare, they're not even sure that those side effects are actually from the vaccine. That's a liberal estimate.

The odds of being left with a serious side effect from getting the actual diseases are far worse. For example, 1 in 1,000 kids who get measles dies from it. http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

One in a million, oh wow...

The side-effects of vaccines are horribly under-reported. The industry has a vested interest in downplaying and dismissing reactions.

When my sister started convulsing in the exam room, her doctor told her she it was probably caused by what she ate for breakfast. He did not even leave open the possibility that her seizures were caused by the toxic shot she took moments earlier.

"Adverse reactions reported in VAERS have typically been shown to be only 5% or 10% of the true rates." -- Gary S. Goldman, PhD (Read his report)

Naive parents believe these dismissive doctors and don't bother reporting the reactions themselves.

Oh yeah, as my sister stumbled out of the office, the drug peddler tried to reschedule her for her next two booster shots. Its all about the Benjamins I guess.

Seriously, if you think one person in a million are having negative reactions, I have a bridge to sell you. I know multiple people who have had extreme reactions. One was temporarily (1-year) paralyzed with Guillian-Barre Syndrome, one is a permanent vegetable.

In a free market, I imagine the airlines would refuse to fly you if you couldn't prove you'd been vaccinated.

Why didn't you respond when I asked you about the free market earlier? Are you good with removing the government completely from the world of vaccination?

I actually agree with Singer's position. http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/vaccination-and-free-choice

Singer is promoting indefinite detention. Not a freedom position at all.

 

[mosquitobite]

We should all just hand over our guns.

It would make the world a safer place.

 

[rambone]

I've never read WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

You can't possibly be skeptical of vaccines without being accused of being a follower of Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy. The "enlightened" side is really good at repeating talking points over and over and over and over and over.....

 

[Ender]

You can read or download these studies in full on the site:

http://www.ecomed.org.uk/publications/the-health-hazards-of-disease-prevention

1. The Health Hazards Of Disease Prevention


Dr David Freed

It seems to me that the ethical background to vaccination – giving potentially harmful medications to healthy individuals in the hope of keeping them that way – has never been clearly addressed… Who gave us the right (a) to invade the bodies of healthy people who never asked us to, and (b) to do it not only without explanation of the possible risks, but in some countries even applying coercive pressures, denying the existence of the risks, and suppressing relevant information?

PRESENTATIONS

2. Vaccines, Atopy & allergy: Problems & Solutions

Dr Richard Halvorsen

Time and time again I have heard from parents how they have been patronised, bullied and accused of not doing the best for their children, when they have simply questioned the necessity of the large number of vaccines that are being given to their children at such an early age…. The risk of severe eczema (atopic dermatitis) in a child who has caught chickenpox under eight years of age is 4% of that of a child who has not contracted the illness.


3. The vaccination policy and the Code of Practice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI): are they at odds?

Lucija Tomljenovic

Deliberately concealing information from parents for the sole purpose of getting them to comply with an “official” vaccination schedule could be considered as a form of ethical violation or misconduct. Official documents obtained from the UK Department of Health (DH) and the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) reveal that the British health authorities have been engaging in such practice for the last 30 years, apparently for the sole purpose of protecting the national vaccination program.

4. Labels of Convenience: Are Labels of Child Abuse being used to cover up Vaccine Damage?

Christina England

Just over ten years ago my family became one of the families in the child abuse statistics. In 1999 I was accused of suffering from Munchausen Syndrome By Proxy. In my case many of the reports and evidence ascertaining to my children were not read and many mistakes were made. I adopted both of my children and was accused of making up and causing the disabilities that they both had before I ever met them. This would not have happened if reports had been read in full.

5. Global Concerns about HPV Vaccines

Leslie Carol Botha and Freda Birrell

We believe in science-based medicine. Our primary goal is to provide the information necessary for you to make informed decisions regarding your health and well-being. We also provide referrals to helpful resources for those unfortunate enough to have experienced vaccine-related injuries.

6. The Autism Epidemic & The Pill

Dr Ellen CG Grant

The use of hormonal contraceptives rose steeply in the 1970s, becoming nearly universal; the incidence of autism and ASD rose steeply in the 1980s. Exogenous hormones have been shown to be genotoxic in their own right, but they are also associated with accumulation of DNA-damaging toxins, and ASD subjects have decreased detoxifying ability.

 

[Ender]

You can't possibly be skeptical of vaccines without being accused of being a follower of Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy. The "enlightened" side is really good at repeating talking points over and over and over and over and over.....

True.

I learned about vaccines from my parents and grandmother, who are health fanatics. Consequently my whole family is extremely healthy- and unvaxed.

 

[PRB]

I've never read WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

And there are definite links between vaccinations and many diseases.

false until proven true.

 

[PRB]

You can't possibly be skeptical of vaccines without being accused of being a follower of Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy. The "enlightened" side is really good at repeating talking points over and over and over and over and over.....

we wouldn't if we actually saw better people with better evidence, so do enlighten us. We don't call ourselves enlighten, I just call myself a blind follower of credentialed, qualified and honest scientists.

 

[angelatc]

I've never read WAKEFIELD'S CRAP.

And there are definite links between vaccinations and many diseases.

Absolutely. The link is quite clear, the evidence has been documented in thousands of independent studies across the entire globe: vaccines prevent them.

 

[Ender]

false until proven true.

It has been proven and I have supplied links to support that.

But just keep feeding at the MSM/Gov/Pharma lying hypocrisy trough and wonder why you have no more freedoms left.

 

[rambone]

we wouldn't if we actually saw better people with better evidence, so do enlighten us. We don't call ourselves enlighten, I just call myself a blind follower of credentialed, qualified and honest scientists.

It doesn't matter how you feel about scientists or vaccines or whatever.

Bringing up things that the other guy never said (i.e. Wakefield and McCarthy) is a strawman fallacy. Its happened in every single vaccine discussion I've ever had.


Example:

>> YOU DON"T LIKE VACCINES HUH? WHY DO YOU PPL LISTEN TO JENNY MCCARTHY!! WHY DO YOU HATE SCIENCE!?

>> No, actually its because vaccines injured my sister. I never anything about that woman. And I have spent my career in a science-based field. Thanks.

 

[osan]

I can hardly believe there are goingon 500 posts with "vaccines are bad", "no they're not", "yes they are", "my daddy'll beat up your daddy..."

None of this is relevant to the individual in terms of his rights. The fact is that there is no truthful argument in favor of forcing vaccines on someone. If you want to be vaccinated, knock yourself out. If I don't, keep your mitts to yourself. It is as simple as that.

Criminy.

 

[Ender]

I can hardly believe there are goingon 500 posts with "vaccines are bad", "no they're not", "yes they are", "my daddy'll beat up your daddy..."

None of this is relevant to the individual in terms of his rights. The fact is that there is no truthful argument in favor of forcing vaccines on someone. If you want to be vaccinated, knock yourself out. If I don't, keep your mitts to yourself. It is as simple as that.

Criminy.

Absolutely.

 

[bolil]

So the guy who doesn't believe that vaccines work because "scientific" evidence always changes is going back 100 years to make a case proving...what? That he has to cherry pick to make a point?

I have a link, too: http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106_chp6.pdf


Here's a snippet from your link:



Meaning, why aren't more people dying, like they used to?

Cut through the chase, Ender. How is it that smallpox is now totally eradicated? Did we pray it away, or what?

LOL. Yeah, smallpox is "eradicated." Such hubris is often punished. Does vaccination work? Sure, hard to argue with science. Does extreme gun contral reduce gun crime? You are defending forced vaccinations? Okay, force vaccinations so the state doesn't force vaccinations.

Eradicated. Antibiotics worked wonders on bacterial infections- for awhile. Now, the future has antibiotic resistant strains to look forward too. Thanks to the merger of science of government.

Nah, if you can force me to take a shot I can force you to go on a diet. Fat hurts us all, don't you know?

 

[mad cow]

LOL. Yeah, smallpox is "eradicated." Such hubris is often punished. Does vaccination work? Sure, hard to argue with science. Does extreme gun contral reduce gun crime? You are defending forced vaccinations? Okay, force vaccinations so the state doesn't force vaccinations.

Eradicated. Antibiotics worked wonders on bacterial infections- for awhile. Now, the future has antibiotic resistant strains to look forward too. Thanks to the merger of science of government.

Nah, if you can force me to take a shot I can force you to go on a diet. Fat hurts us all, don't you know?

Angelatc has posted many times,one time directly in answer to you,involving many expletives,in this very thread,that she doesn't condone forced vaccinations.Why do you keep on lying?

 

[bolil]

Angelatc has posted many times,one time directly in answer to you,involving many expletives,in this very thread,that she doesn't condone forced vaccinations.Why do you keep on lying?

Angelatc has posted many times,one time directly in answer to you,involving many expletives,in this very thread,that she doesn't condone forced vaccinations.Why do you keep on lying?

No, just strongly suggested ones? Lying? Sorry, bud, thats not in my nature. If I have a fault it is ingenuous. Perhpaps I missed it, but the impassioned defense of vaccinations leads me to believe otherwise. First, you justify. Then, you force. Instead, it could be, let it go. Vaccinate yourself. Keep your spawn out of daycare, and then what is the issue? Others have advocated the killing of anyone that shows symptoms of any disease.

The simple statment that one does not condone forced vaccinations is revealed as false when one propounds that vaccination is ONLY, can ONLY be, beneficial. Kind of like Liberty? Well, then, from that if can be inferred that vaccinations aught be mandated like liberty aught be mandated.

Don't call me a liar, prick, ever.

 

[mad cow]

No, just strongly suggested ones? Lying? Sorry, bud, thats not in my nature. If I have a fault it is ingenuous. Perhpaps I missed it, but the impassioned defense of vaccinations leads me to believe otherwise. First, you justify. Then, you force. Instead, it could be, let it go. Vaccinate yourself. Keep your spawn out of daycare, and then what is the issue? Others have advocated the killing of anyone that shows symptoms of any disease.

The simple statment that one does not condone forced vaccinations is revealed as false when one propounds that vaccination is ONLY, can ONLY be, beneficial. Kind of like Liberty? Well, then, from that if can be inferred that vaccinations aught be mandated like liberty aught be mandated.

Don't call me a liar, prick, ever.

So if I suggest to you that a good nights sleep is beneficial,are you going to assume that I'm going to force you to go to sleep even if I have told you explicitly that I would never force you to go to sleep a short time ago?What if I recommended a restaurant.Does that mean I am forcing you to eat there under pain of death?If you answer yes to either of those questions,I will damn sure call you a liar.

 

[donnay]

So if I suggest to you that a good nights sleep is beneficial,are you going to assume that I'm going to force you to go to sleep even if I have told you explicitly that I would never force you to go to sleep a short time ago?What if I recommended a restaurant.Does that mean I am forcing you to eat there under pain of death?If you answer yes to either of those questions,I will damn sure call you a liar.

Suggesting and advocating are two different things.

I can suggest you try something--it is my opinion. But when I advocate something, I become convinced that something is good for you. Nevertheless, I still, as an advocate have no right to force what I have learned on you. To take a paraphrased quote from the movie the Matrix: "I can show you the door, you have to be willing to walk through it."

 

[osan]

Angelatc has posted many times,one time directly in answer to you,involving many expletives,in this very thread,that she doesn't condone forced vaccinations.Why do you keep on lying?

I cannot speak for Bolil but can say that I did not parse the use of "you" as singular, but rather plural. "You", meaning some group such as government. I wousl assess the statement as a generalized delineation of a conditional. If this, then that. Simple modus ponens logical premise, P --> Q. If you can do this to me based on a generalized principle of "threat", I may do that to you on the precise same basis.

A cursory analysis of the logic behind the basis for the justification of force reveals the necessarily arbitrary nature of the basis, no to mention the fact that it is demonstrably false. But that is all orthogonal to the real point: if you can force me to do A because of the threat ~A poses to you, I can force you to do B because of the threat ~B poses to me. After all, fair is fair.

QED and all that rot.