Rand Paul - Tariffs are taxes on top of taxes

[acptulsa]

...what would replace the income lost from ending the IRS he said he would use tariffs.

I agree with Trump's recycled Ron Paul rhetoric too. I just wish he'd keep that campaign promise. Or any campaign promise. Until he does, Rand Paul is right. This is just a new tax on top of all the old taxes. It hasn't replaced any of them.

 

[Madison320]

I clearly remember when Ron Paul was running for president and was asked what would replace the income lost from ending the IRS he said he would use tariffs.
I do agree with Trump on this issue. Other countries have been taking advantage of the USA for a very long time and it is part of the reason we are in such debt.

The key word is "replace".

 

[nikcers]

The key word is "replace".

It did largely replace the corporate tax and other taxes that were in place before Trump got elected.

Before Trump was elected we had a corporate tax rate of 35%.

This was not competitive because other countries had lower corporate tax rates.

This gave other countries an advantage in trade especially because we had low import tariffs.

If you remember at the time the democrats if they had won were going to force other countries to get rid of their tariffs and trade barriers and create a global minimum tax rate.

Trump bypassed getting us into a global trade treaty which would have had all of the other countries ganging up against us to ensure we got a bad deal.

Obama mocked him at the time and said there is no way Trump can just waive a magic wand and bring jobs back by getting a better deal but he did get a better deal.

 

[TheCount]

We don't have high taxes globally. Thats the big difference.

Taxes matter when you compare them to other economies in a global economy. So the US tax rates are competitive and we have more access to other markets than we have ever had.

What does any of this have to do with tariffs

That last part is probably the most important. US businesses will have access to hundreds of millions of more potential customers because of the trade policies created through the use of and the threat of tariffs.

Which customers did US businesses not have access to before?

 

[nikcers]

What does any of this have to do with tariffs


Which customers did US businesses not have access to before?

Markets in Europe where there were trade barriers is just one example.

You would never see a Ford in Europe for example because they had trade barriers up.

Tariffs and the threat of potential more Tariffs is what got these carve outs in trade.

Trump even put massive trade Tariffs on China to show the rest of the world he wasn't bluffing.

Dozens of countries are investing in the USA and creating jobs in the USA where they would normally have spent it in other countries and created jobs in other countries.

A decade ago especially when the trade war initially started all of the jobs were going to China.

Now jobs are leaving those countries and money is leaving those countries.

There's a chart you can look at that shows millionaires leaving countries and the wealth has been leaving other countries and coming to the USA.

 

[TheCount]

Markets in Europe where there were trade barriers is just one example.

What trade barriers?

You would never see a Ford in Europe for example because they had trade barriers up.

You've clearly never been to Europe.

Tariffs and the threat of potential more Tariffs is what got these carve outs in trade.

What carve outs?

 

[Invisible Man]

I clearly remember when Ron Paul was running for president and was asked what would replace the income lost from ending the IRS he said he would use tariffs.
I do agree with Trump on this issue. Other countries have been taking advantage of the USA for a very long time and it is part of the reason we are in such debt.

Ron Paul ran on abolishing the income tax and replacing it with nothing.

Ron Paul Answers Your Questions, Part Two - Freakonomics

Ron Paul When we solicited your questions for Congressman Ron Paul shortly after the election, so many questions came in that we split Paul’s answers into two batches, the first of which was published last week. Here is the second. Like the first batch, they are well-considered and interesting...

freakonomics.com

He may have at times said that he would prefer tariffs to income taxes if he had to choose between them. But that's not what we have now either. We still have the income tax, and Trump is increasing our taxes on top of that by raising tariffs.

 

[nikcers]

What trade barriers?


You've clearly never been to Europe.


What carve outs?

What carve outs?

Well for one we arent cut out of the world order.

After the 2008 financial collapse the rest of the world began colluding to cut us out of the global economy.

Instead of a multilateral agreement like TPP we have secured trillions in investments and other governments opened up trade with their populations of hundreds of millions of people.

The EU agreed to accept US imports without tariffs.
This agreement includes provisions to address digital trade barriers and eliminate tariffs

South Korea pledged to open its market to US goods, including automobiles and agricultural products.

Longstanding Japanese restrictions on US cars and trucks were lifted, including accepting vehicles meeting US safety standards.

Vietnam agreed to drop all levies on US imports, allowing US products to enter Vietnam with zero tariffs.

Vietnam also agreed to address non-tariff barriers impacting US exports and tackle issues like trade fraud.

 

[Invisible Man]

Vietnam agreed to drop all levies on US imports, allowing US products to enter Vietnam with zero tariffs.

I'm jealous of them for that.

Let that sink in.

Vietnam is a communist country, and their government burdens them with less tariffs (at least for goods from the US) than our government does to us.

 

[nikcers]

I'm jealous of them for that.

Let that sink in.

Vietnam is a communist country, and their government burdens them with less tariffs (at least for goods from the US) than our government does to us.

Your jealous because Vietnam doesnt pay tariffs for US products?

You dont pay tariffs on stuff made in the USA either.

There's nothing stopping you from moving to Vietnam if you think its so great.

If its such a great place im sure they will just take you too.

 

[Invisible Man]

There's nothing stopping you from moving to Vietnam if you think its so great.

If its such a great place im sure they will just take you too.

Perhaps at some point I will do that. Their low tariffs in comparison to ours are certainly a point in their favor. Vietnam is a popular destination for ex-pats, and has made a lot of reforms that increased economic freedom over the past 30 or so years. We are seeing increasing numbers of people fleeing the US as it gets progressively less free.

But, of course, even if I choose to stay here, that choice does not constitute consent to endure objectively unjust violations of my rights performed by the regime in Washington, DC. Nor does it make those actions any less unjust or any more defensible. We all ought to be able to live here as free people and not be harmed or robbed by the neighbor who happens to be stronger and better armed than us.

 

[nikcers]

Perhaps at some point I will do that. Their low tariffs in comparison to ours are certainly a point in their favor. Vietnam is a popular destination for ex-pats, and has made a lot of reforms that increased economic freedom over the past 30 or so years. We are seeing increasing numbers of people fleeing the US as it gets progressively less free.

But, of course, even if I choose to stay here, that choice does not constitute consent to endure objectively unjust violations of my rights performed by the regime in Washington, DC. Nor does it make those actions any less unjust or any more defensible. We all ought to be able to live here as free people and not be harmed or robbed by the neighbor who happens to be stronger and better armed than us.

The consent is there since you are subject to US law as long as you retain your citizenship and you remain on US jurisdiction.

Plus the idea is you dont pay tariffs on products coming from the USA either.

Vietnam charges tariffs on products coming from other countries.

Thats the deal we get because we are a great country.

 

[Invisible Man]

The consent is there since you are subject to US law as long as you retain your citizenship and you remain on US jurisdiction.

Plus the idea is you dont pay tariffs on products coming from the USA either.

Vietnam charges tariffs on products coming from other countries.

Thats the deal we get because we are a great country.

That is not consent. I have a right to live on my own property without having my rights violated. And I have a right to buy something from someone else without paying a cut to some third party that has nothing to do with the exchange that I and that seller both voluntarily agreed to enter concerning our own property. If a criminal gang takes over my neighbor hood and vandalizes my home and beats me and my family unless I pay them protection money, they don't get to justify their actions by saying, "He could have just moved to a different neighborhood."

 

[TheCount]

What carve outs?

Well for one we arent cut out of the world order.

How were we cut out before?

After the 2008 financial collapse the rest of the world began colluding to cut us out of the global economy.

How?

The EU agreed to accept US imports without tariffs.

Why wouldn't we want them to have tariffs on us? They create economic growth.

This agreement includes provisions to address digital trade barriers and eliminate tariffs

Wait, now we want to eliminate tariffs?

What digital trade barriers?

South Korea pledged to open its market to US goods, including automobiles and agricultural products.

Open how?

Longstanding Japanese restrictions on US cars and trucks were lifted, including accepting vehicles meeting US safety standards.

What restrictions?

Vietnam agreed to drop all levies on US imports, allowing US products to enter Vietnam with zero tariffs.

We don't want tariffs?

Vietnam also agreed to address non-tariff barriers impacting US exports and tackle issues like trade fraud.

What barriers?



You keep saying the same thing with different words and zero details. Why is that?

 

[nikcers]

That is not consent. I have a right to live on my own property

Ok well enjoy Vietnam if you like property rights.

Their government just stole a bunch of property from poor farmers and paid them $3500 dollars and some food stamps.

 

[Invisible Man]

The consent is there since you are subject to US law as long as you retain your citizenship and you remain on US jurisdiction.

Plus the idea is you dont pay tariffs on products coming from the USA either.

Vietnam charges tariffs on products coming from other countries.

Thats the deal we get because we are a great country.

Also, you say "we." But "we" aren't getting any kind of a deal. "We" are getting screwed over by our government.

We used to have to pay only 3 percent on goods we imported from Vietnam. Now we're paying 20 percent.

It's the people of Vietnam who are getting a good deal.

 

[Invisible Man]

Ok well enjoy Vietnam if you like property rights.

Their government just stole a bunch of property from poor farmers and paid them $3500 dollars and some food stamps.

And I suppose in your way of looking at it, there's nothing wrong with their government doing that, since those people could just move.

 

[nikcers]

And I suppose in your way of looking at it, there's nothing wrong with their government doing that, since those people could just move.

No their government forced them to move.

That was their consent though right?

 

[nikcers]

How were we cut out before?


How?


Why wouldn't we want them to have tariffs on us? They create economic growth.


Wait, now we want to eliminate tariffs?

What digital trade barriers?


Open how?


What restrictions?


We don't want tariffs?


What barriers?



You keep saying the same thing with different words and zero details. Why is that?

All of the jobs were getting outsourced to other countries.

Thats how the USA was getting cut out of the world order.

In 1990, the United States accounted for approximately
26.3% of the global manufacturing output.

In 1990, China accounted for only 2.7% of the global manufacturing sector. By 2020, this figure had risen to 35%.

 

[Invisible Man]

No their government forced them to move.

That was their consent though right?

No. That's not consent. See?