Rand Paul: feds may have unfairly 'targeted' dad's supporters

[theodorelogan]

The fact that truefreedom uses the "necessary and proper" clause as a support for his argument is where he ultimately fails.

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

I don't see how imprisoning people for making coins is necessary or proper in order for the US government to "coin money". The US government can coin money quite easily while private citizens do the same.

This kind of loose interpretation of the constitution can justify any government act (how can one regulate the value of money if people are saying it is unsound? Clearly we need a law that bans people from denigrating the dollar), and is precisely what Ron Paul is railing against, has based his entire political career on, and would base his presidency on.

Next you will be telling us that the "general welfare" clause gives the federal government the authority to confiscate all privately owned land to redistribute "for the general welfare" or that the commerce clause justifies interfering with any act that has any effect whatsoever on interstat commerce (such as selling marijuana since your sale influences prices, which influences interstate trade)

The authority to imprison for producing private metal disk is not given to the federal government. Please see the 9th and 19th amendments.

This troll is no Ron Paul supporter, no matter what he says. Every word he has spoken in this thread is anathema to Ron Paul.

 

[bmcosti]

Doesn't matter. I'm a Ron supporter, but Rand is wrong here. The law plainly states you can't counterfeit even if the coin is of original design. It's not an issue of mistaking it for Washington....it's against the law.

Well in the constitution it says only gold and silver are legal tender. Ron Paul Dollars did use those precious metals. However, fiat money in my opinion is unconstitutional.

 

[fluoridatedbrainsoup]

TrueFreedom harped on the idea that Louis T. Mcfadden had zero credibility. Well, actions speak louder than words, let's see what happened to him after he spoke out against the Federal Reserve:

THE DEATH OF CONGRESSMAN LOUIS T. McFADDEN, OCT. 1936

Posted By: CliffMickelson <Send E-Mail>
Date: Friday, 20 February 2004, 5:48 p.m.

Greetings:

....So, you see dear readers....

In the days before the widespread use of small airplanes by rashly obliging members of Congress, much more crass and obvious methods were employed to quiet the squeaky wheels.

-CliffMickelson

***

October 4, 1936

Attacks on Congressman McFadden's Life Reported

....Commenting on Former Congressman Louis T. McFaddens's "heart-failure sudden-death" on Oct. 3, 1936, after a "dose" of "intestinal flu," "Pelley's Weekly" of Oct. 14 said:

....."Now that this sterling American patriot has made the Passing, it can be revealed that not long after his public utterance against the encroaching powers of Judah, it became known among his intimates that he had suffered two attacks against his life. The first attack came in the form of two revolver shots fired at him from ambush as he was alighting from a cab in front of one of the Capital hotels. Fortunately both shots missed him, the bullets burying themselves in the structure of the cab."

"He became violently ill after partaking of food at a political banquet at Washington. His life was only saved from what was subsequently announced as a poisoning by the presence of a physician friend at the banquet, who at once procured a stomach pump and subjected the Congressman to emergency treatment." /s/ Robert Edward Edmondson (Publicist-Economist)

President Andrew Jackson stated in reference to the bankers at the start of his administration:

"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out."

***

 

[JarG0n]

Doesn't matter. I'm a Ron supporter, but Rand is wrong here. The law plainly states you can't counterfeit even if the coin is of original design. It's not an issue of mistaking it for Washington....it's against the law.

#1. A "coin" is a round shiny thing expelled by a government. If you don't believe that, head on over to your local library and check for a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition (currently in 8th, where the term "Coin" is no longer defined, ostensibly to fool the lay person).

Coin: Pieces of gold, silver, or other metal, fashioned into a prescribed shape, weight, and degree of fineness, and stamped, by authority of the government, with certain marks and devices, and put into circulation as money at a fixed value. Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition, Page 260.

See: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/definitions.html for a comprehensive review of what money is, and isn't. Federal Reserve Notes are not legally "money", but are used in place of it.

If Black's Law, the authority on legal definitions for over 100 years doesn't convince you, then head on over to www.sunshinemint.com, or www.nwtmintbullion.com. You won't find they are minting private "coins", rather, they mint "bullion", "rounds", or "medallions" for individuals. They mint "coins" for governments. Northwest Territorial Mint is also a dealer in U.S. Coins. All those who are in the know, understand exactly what a coin is, and isn't. The Liberty Dollar, by definition, cannot be a coin; period.

#2: The Liberty Dollar has been used as barter for almost 10 years, without incident. All of a sudden, a political movement comes along, and bam!

#3: Section 486 is based on "intent".

Section 486: Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal. Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. June 25, 1948, c. 645, 62 Stat. 709.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/disclaimer.htm

Liberty Dollar Disclaimer (2002)

In the fall of 2002, USC Title 18, Section 486 came under close scrutiny and review by the Liberty Dollar community and its attorneys. The outcome was a public DISCLAIMER, that acknowledged that the one ounce Gold and Silver Libertys were not in violation of federal law and particularly Section 486. So, I hope by this time that everybody knows the Gold and Silver Libertys are not "legal tender". Nor are they "coins", as a "coin" is something issued by a government and we are not they, nor do we ever want to be. The fact that the "Libertys" cannot be described in these terms has been enshrined in the United States Code, so it is not just numismatic, it is the law. And as the government also defines "money" and "current money", the Gold and Silver Libertys are neither of these.

There are three key points to keep in mind when researching this page: First when 486 was passed on June 8, 1864, the United States was embroiled in Civil War, legal tender was instituted, specie as payment was all but suspended, the new Greenbacks were not convertible to gold and silver. So the intent of the law was primarily a counterfeit statue. The key point is that it only deals with metals. It does not include paper currency nor digital currency. That is why the Disclaimer below mentions ONLY the one ounce Gold and Silver Libertys by name. And third the government has redefined money and current money and now specifically excludes gold and silver as money. And finally, even if the circumstances, legitimate intent, or metals were not enough, we publicly disclaim any intent to misrepresent the Gold and Silver to be anything but examples of the goods stored in the warehouse as required by law.

Drawing upon our ongoing legal and monetary research, USC Title 18, Section 486, dates from the time of the War between the States. Section 486 was originally known as the Act of June 8, 1864, which came about shortly after the first legal tender laws were passed, when Lincoln ushered in the country's first fiat "greenback" currency and drove all specie out of circulation. The Act was revised in 1873, 1909 and 1948. The current statute states:

Section 486: Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. June 25, 1948, c. 645, 62 Stat. 709.

Upon careful review of all cases pertinent to Section 486, it is the opinion of our Chief Counsel that the Gold and Silver Libertys distributed by NORFED are not in conflict because they are not "coins", nor are we circulating them as "money" as defined by the government. Please continue to refrain from referring to Gold and Silver Libertys as "coins", "money" or "current money". We can continue to refer to The Liberty Dollar as "real money" and/or "currency" because Section 486 only applies to metal; it does not apply to paper warehouse receipts, nor digital currencies. In fact, Section 486 actually reinforces our original position on these two items.

Based on independent legal research and the Legal Opinion Letter by our Chief Counsel, Section 486 is largely based on "intent". So upon advice of counsel, NORFED hereby issues this disclaimer to officially state that it is not the intent of the Gold and Silver Libertys to be in conflict with federal law. Please note this Disclaimer is posted on every page of the Liberty Dollar web site.

 

[JarG0n]

Also US v. Marigold upheld that the design of the coin does not matter.

1) ALD is not "coin".

2) The "intent" was proven in this case. Prosecutors will have to prove the ALD intended to circulate as current money, and defraud people into thinking they were such. Intent will be a key factor in this case.

1st. With having brought into the United States, from a foreign place, with intent to pass, utter, publish, and sell as true, certain false, forged, and counterfeit coins, made, forged, and counterfeited in the resemblance and similitude of certain gold and silver coins of the United States, coined at the mint, he knowing the same to be false, forged, and counterfeit, and intending thereby to defraud divers persons unknown.

'2d. With having uttered, published, and passed such counterfeit coins, with intent to defraud,

 

[JarG0n]

"current money" -- what does that mean?

Current Money: The currency of the country; whatever is intended to and does actually circulate as currency; every species of coin or currency. It is employed to describe money which passes from hand to hand, person to person, and circulates through the community, and is generally received. Money is current which is received as money in the common business transactions, and is the common medium in barter and trade. Source: Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition. Page 383.

See: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/definitions.html

 

[JarG0n]

Hmm i got this from Liberty Dollars website. I thought they weren't calling it real money.....

The Liberty Dollar is the second-most popular and the fastest-growing currency in America! It's backed by gold and silver instead of being backed by national debt like our familiar US dollars. When you hold the Liberty Dollar, you own silver. When you give this REAL money to someone as payment, they now own silver.

From: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/disclaimer.htm

We can continue to refer to The Liberty Dollar as "real money" and/or "currency" because Section 486 only applies to metal; it does not apply to paper warehouse receipts, nor digital currencies. In fact, Section 486 actually reinforces our original position on these two items.

 

[JarG0n]

I am smoking nothing. Other than being shiny and making jewelry what is the intrinsic value of gold?

The value of gold and silver extends beyond purely aesthetic use as jewelry. 'm sure this is just a partial list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Applications

Also, silver has an ever increasing number of patents where its use is a critical component of said patent. Silver actually has more patent uses than gold.

On the other hand, Federal Reserve Notes are 3-4 cent (in labor and materials) pieces of paper. Worse yet, they are already printed on, so you cannot use them for writing on (which would probably be defacing). Also, they are not wide enough for use as toilet paper.

 

[llepard]

Well I do believe this has evolved into argument, but I am interested in getting this answered. And why you list some of it's qualities, like I said before, other than the fact that people like it because we are dumb people that like shiny things, and the fact that it makes jewelry, what is so great about it?

It's production is limited to 1-2% per year due to the econmics of mining it.

Your earlier example of a large gold find is unrealistic. It will never happen.

Therefore, governments cannot create it out of thin air.

So, inflation through monetary printing becomes impossible.

Gold may not be the perfect currency, but for 6,000 years mankind has accepted its value.

And you would prefer that the government have control of the supply of money.....


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I laugh at your gullibility, stupidity and ignorance.

You need to research this topic more. You are talking Gold 101 at the Freshman level. Some of the people on this forum have post doctorate degrees in this stuff.

Do you know who Edwin Viera is? If not google him and read his stuff.

Best, LWL

 

[TrueFreedom]

It's production is limited to 1-2% per year due to the econmics of mining it.

Your earlier example of a large gold find is unrealistic. It will never happen.

Therefore, governments cannot create it out of thin air.

So, inflation through monetary printing becomes impossible.

Gold may not be the perfect currency, but for 6,000 years mankind has accepted its value.

And you would prefer that the government have control of the supply of money.....


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I laugh at your gullibility, stupidity and ignorance.

You need to research this topic more. You are talking Gold 101 at the Freshman level. Some of the people on this forum have post doctorate degrees in this stuff.

Do you know who Edwin Viera is? If not google him and read his stuff.

Best, LWL

So what proof can you offer that there could be no large gold find and an influx of gold into the market?

Gold is not a perfect currency, it is just a means of exchange.

Yes government should have supply of money, read Hobbes and Locke. It is not YOUR money. You enter into contract with the government. Without them you would not have money. Without their protection you could not make a farm. You would create a farm and then someone would come kill you and take your farm. And before long people would say, well hell, why make a farm, someone will steal it, so lets just go back to picking apples off of a tree.

Yes I know who Viera is, no I do not think he has any clue what he is talking about.

 

[llepard]

So what proof can you offer that there could be no large gold find and an influx of gold into the market?

Gold is not a perfect currency, it is just a means of exchange.

Yes government should have supply of money, read Hobbes and Locke. It is not YOUR money. You enter into contract with the government. Without them you would not have money. Without their protection you could not make a farm. You would create a farm and then someone would come kill you and take your farm. And before long people would say, well hell, why make a farm, someone will steal it, so lets just go back to picking apples off of a tree.

Yes I know who Viera is, no I do not think he has any clue what he is talking about.

Proof, well let's see, in 6,000 years of recorded history there has never been a year when the new gold found has exceeded 2% of the existing base of gold. Now I am not saying that next year it won't happen. But 6,000 to 1 sounds like pretty long odds to me.

You sir or madam are a statist. What are you doing on this forum or supporting Dr. Paul. You need to sign up to support one of the statist candidates.

1. I did not say gold was perfect. Just that is was better than anything else.
2. It is not my money? What the fuck are you talking about? Money has value by mutual agreement. It belongs to who possesses it. What is your point.
3. Your example is a joke. Because there are criminals in the world i need the government? Hahaha ha ha .... No because there are criminals in the world people organize to protect themselves and punish criminal behavior. Some call it governement, I call it individuals acting in their own rational self interest. Just because I organize with others to protect myself from criminal behavior I did not agree to let government control my life via inflation and taxes.

I want to be free of government interference. That is why it is called the Freedom Movement.

You obviously do not get it, or you like to be a troll and argue. Either way I am done with your sorry ass.

You are entitled to your opinion about Viera, I suppose you went to law school at Harvard and to Harvard College and have written books on the subject. You are right, you know more than Viera.

You are the weakest link. Go to Rudy's forum.