Rand Paul dismisses Ann Coulter on immigration

[Brian4Liberty]

I've seen all races on welfare. It's just especially infuriating when the personal on welfare is Israeli, Albanian, Vietnamese, Ecuadorian and etcetera and they don't even speak english. Why do Americans work hard so someone can come from half way across the world to mooch of us? I don't approve of a "social safety net" but some people out there don't realize that what we have is an international social safety net.

Having a hard time in Ukraine? Find a far flung U.S. relative to sponsor you, get to America and go on welfare. It's insane. Again, not all immigrants do this, but NO immigrants should be doing it at all. A social safety net has no purpose if it people from other societies, who should ideally be looking after their own, can take advantage of it.

Years ago, a friend had a room-mate either from Egypt or Iran (can't remember which). She had her parents come visit, and the first thing they did is take them down to the Social Security office and sign them up. They go back to Egypt after vacation, but the SS checks continue to come. Apparently it was a well known scam.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I have to say, having lived in Southern California all my life, this widely believed stereotype among Republicans that Mexicans are lazy, don't want to work, and want to leach off the government, is (for the vast majority of them) simply not true. Most of the illegals that do work use someone else's SS# for obtaining employment and they pay taxes. You need hard work done? Physical work? Grueling work? The Mexicans are the first ones in line willing to work.

Yep, the stereotypes are often wrong, or at a minimum they are exaggerated for political purposes. Some on the right like to appeal to xenophobia. And the left's favorite dishonest tactic to derail opposition is to call people racists.

As far as work ethic, there is often a difference between new immigrants and their children. The children of immigrants grow up in US culture, and are just as likely or not to take welfare as any other American.

 

[abacabb]

Years ago, a friend had a room-mate either from Egypt or Iran (can't remember which). She had her parents come visit, and the first thing they did is take them down to the Social Security office and sign them up. They go back to Egypt after vacation, but the SS checks continue to come. Apparently it was a well known scam.

SS, medicare, food stamps...none should exist. We have to hammer at one at a time.

 

[abacabb]

Senate GOP: Gang of Eight Deal Could Cost Trillions in Welfare

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...eform-could-trillions-in-entitlement-increase


Rand, you really fuggged up!!

Totally fugged.

"“According to what has been publicly reported about the Gang of Eight’s forthcoming immigration bill, there appears to be a major flaw that could allow millions of illegal immigrants to access federal welfare benefits and poverty programs,” the GOP Budget Committee staff wrote in a statement to media. "

Vote no on that sh!t.

 

[RonPaulMall]

Yep, the stereotypes are often wrong, or at a minimum they are exaggerated for political purposes. Some on the right like to appeal to xenophobia. And the left's favorite dishonest tactic to derail opposition is to call people racists.

As far as work ethic, there is often a difference between new immigrants and their children. The children of immigrants grow up in US culture, and are just as likely or not to take welfare as any other American.

The idea that Mexicans are "lazy" is more stereotype of the leftist elites that have no interaction with Mexicans at all than conservatives. Whatever else might be said of them, people of the far right live in the real world. Mexicans come here to pick tomatoes, wash dishes, and work in kitchens. Everybody on the right understands that. The issue is whether it is desirable to bring in tens of millions of low skill, low I.Q, menial labor peasants from Mexico in to the country. And even if we accept that is desirable at a time when 90 million Americans are out of work, whether these tomato pickers and dish washers should be given a priority over other types of immigrants who would fit in better and offer us more.

As to your final comment about "immigrants" and their ability to adapt to our culture and get by on their own, you seem to miss the point. We aren't talking about "immigrants" in general. We are talking about a very specific type of immigrant. The impact of 10-30 million new Japanese immigrants is quite radically different than the impact of 10-30 million new Mexican immigrants.

 

[yinzer38]

As to your final comment about "immigrants" and their ability to adapt to our culture and get by on their own, you seem to miss the point. We aren't talking about "immigrants" in general. We are talking about a very specific type of immigrant. The impact of 10-30 million new Japanese immigrants is quite radically different than the impact of 10-30 million new Mexican immigrants.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[RonPaulMall]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

So we should chuck any notions of reason or common sense, and absolutely refuse any attempt to rationally debate immigration policy because........ somebody wrote a poem. That is the type of argument I would expect on Huffington Post, not here.

 

[abacabb]

We shouldn't have millions of immigrants from any one given background, as it increases factionalism.

 

[yinzer38]

So we should chuck any notions of reason or common sense, and absolutely refuse any attempt to rationally debate immigration policy because........ somebody wrote a poem. That is the type of argument I would expect on Huffington Post, not here.

The reference to "The New Colossus" was more so of a reference to our country's history. Granted, Milton Friedman did posit that a policy of fully unfettered immigration would be a cause for concern in today's welfare state-ridden America if more people were to insert themselves onto the welfare rolls. [However, even this point is debatable - see the Cato Institute's article from last month "Poor Immigrants Use Public Benefits at a Lower Rate than Poor Native-Born Citizens" <http://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/poor-immigrants-use-public-benefits-lower-rate-poor>.]

I noticed that you questioned in a few posts back the desirability of allowing additional unskilled, uneducated immigrants into this country at the present when so many Americans are out of work. I don't think that many unemployed Americans would even consider taking the jobs you referred to (like tomato picking) given the fact that unemployment checks provide better pay for no effort at all. What did you mean when you referred to immigrants (like the Japanese?) that "would fit in better and offer us more"? Is this in regards to preferring immigrants that tend to gravitate more towards white collar jobs as opposed to blue collar work?

Personally, I've always been uncomfortable with policies and politicians' speeches that favored only the entry of specific "desirables" to America. Is the PhD-holding immigrant that a company like Microsoft would lobby Washington for inherently all that much "superior" to the hard-working laborer from south of the border that a farmer would need in order to complete this year's harvest? Sure, the guy with the PhD would be credentialed, but both would help stimulate our economy through their labor and pay taxes all the same. I don't think that one's country of origin in the end would have much bearing on his or her capacity to become a proud, patriotic American.

You can chide me for being sentimental, but I truly believe that that poem engraved within the Statue of Liberty really articulates much of what America and the American Dream is all about. When we remain true to the spirit of our founding, we are THE land of freedom and opportunity. For much of our history, immigration was very lightly regulated (or even outright ignored/subverted) and waves of immigrants - our ancestors, many of them unskilled and uneducated - came onto these shores and helped to build this country. Heck, even Glenn Beck said something weird like "immigrants replenish us" in favor of Rand's immigration proposal...

 

[KrokHead]

SS, medicare, food stamps...none should exist. We have to hammer at one at a time.

Or we could get mired in losertarian issues like fighting tooth and nail for prostitution or doing what it takes to get heroin legal.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

SS, medicare, food stamps...none should exist. We have to hammer at one at a time.

Amen!!!

 

[William R]

People that are defending Rand on this issue are in denial. The very idea that dirt poor Mexicans are going to start voting for limited government is a joke. They voted for Obama because they like freebies from the government. If Rand can't see this he's a dumbass.

 

[abacabb]

People that are defending Rand on this issue are in denial. The very idea that dirt poor Mexicans are going to start voting for limited government is a joke. They voted for Obama because they like freebies from the government. If Rand can't see this he's a dumbass.

Sadly, Rand doesn't have an IQ of 160, because stupidity is playing a part here.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

As to your final comment about "immigrants" and their ability to adapt to our culture and get by on their own, you seem to miss the point. We aren't talking about "immigrants" in general. We are talking about a very specific type of immigrant. The impact of 10-30 million new Japanese immigrants is quite radically different than the impact of 10-30 million new Mexican immigrants.

I am talking about all immigrants. And what I am saying is that after one generation, they pretty much take on American norms.

You can talk about specific groups if you want. And many of the immigrants that are called "Mexican" are really from further south, like El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.

With the economy we have right now, we don't need additional labor of any kind.

 

[RonPaulMall]

I am talking about all immigrants. And what I am saying is that after one generation, they pretty much take on American norms.

That really isn't the case with the Mexican peasant class. I mean, we have decades of actual experience to judge this on for crying out loud. And the passing of generations isn't going to change their IQ. The second generation of Mexican Americans tend to make more than their parents. The generation after that, unlike other immigrant classes, tends to revert back. We are bringing in a permanent underclass of people who have a very different culture than our own and we need to discuss this like adults. Have any of you ever been to Southern California or Miami? Are you going to seriously suggest these places have become more American as the decades have passed and not less? When you bring these people in, the parts of America where they settle are going to be rendered pretty much unlivable. The wealthy elite who already live in their segregated, gated communities or high rises may not care about that, but for the American middle class, it is a big deal. Do you want to live in El Salvador, Honduras or Guatemala? Do you want to raise your family there? Because those places are what we are turning larges swaths of America in to with the current immigration policy.

 

[abacabb]

That really isn't the case with the Mexican peasant class. I mean, we have decades of actual experience to judge this on for crying out loud. And the passing of generations isn't going to change their IQ. The second generation of Mexican Americans tend to make more than their parents. The generation after that, unlike other immigrant classes, tends to revert back. We are bringing in a permanent underclass of people who have a very different culture than our own and we need to discuss this like adults. Have any of you ever been to Southern California or Miami? Are you going to seriously suggest these places have become more American as the decades have passed and not less? When you bring these people in, the parts of America where they settle are going to be rendered pretty much unlivable. The wealthy elite who already live in their segregated, gated communities or high rises may not care about that, but for the American middle class, it is a big deal. Do you want to live in El Salvador, Honduras or Guatemala? Do you want to raise your family there? Because those places are what we are turning larges swaths of America in to with the current immigration policy.

+rep

America won't be here in 50 years, one way or another.

 

[Origanalist]

Or we could get mired in losertarian issues like fighting tooth and nail for prostitution or doing what it takes to get heroin legal.

Michael Medved, is that you?

 

[WhistlinDave]

People that are defending Rand on this issue are in denial. The very idea that dirt poor Mexicans are going to start voting for limited government is a joke. They voted for Obama because they like freebies from the government. If Rand can't see this he's a dumbass.

Wrong. Latinos vote Obama because they feel insulted and devalued by the GOP because of the GOP's stance on illegal immigrants. Big difference.

You might want to do a little research on poverty statistics before going and calling Rand a dumb ass. Even if there are by percentage more "dirt poor Mexicans" than there are "dirt poor whites," the fact is most of the millions of Hispanics in the US (whether here legally or otherwise) are not living in poverty.

BUT I can tell you pretty much ALL people of Hispanic descent, whether rich, middle class, poor, legal, illegal, whatever, almost all of them certainly vote for whichever party they feel sees their "undocumented" brethren as equal human beings, individuals deserving of respect and dignity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Poverty_and_demographics

This immigration issue is not going to go away and will continue to sink the GOP if the GOP doesn't "clean the moss off its face." At least Rand's plan calls for securing the border first and foremost, so we won't keep having a repeat of this issue every few decades. Fix it one last time and then be done with it. And like Rand said, since we don't deport very many people who are here illegally, they're enjoying "de facto amnesty" already.

From what I know, the vast majority of Mexican nationals who come to this country illegally do so in order to work and provide for their families, not because they want to be lazy and gobble up free entitlements. Many of them succeed at the American dream and become self sufficient. Many of them don't, but that doesn't mean we should characterize them all as leaches. It's simply not accurate. And doing so can only hurt the GOP long term, because the longer the rhetoric creates a feeling of being disrespected with Hispanics, the longer that voting block will be mostly Democratic party by default.

 

[supermario21]

Remember, many of the white Europeans that immigrated here in the early 1900s and even post-WW2 were New Deal Democrats, then most of them moved right.

 

[KrokHead]

We are bringing in a permanent underclass of people.

This is the part that is the most demented. And you hear it everyday, "They do the jobs that 'regular' people wouldn't (in reality: used to) do!" People who support immigration who aren't in it to help their families live a better life, usually think that immigrants exist to make their lives easier and are happy slaving away. Whether the underclass is slaving away or is on welfare being pissed that they're broke, leaving a growing underclass stewing, who probably has little in common with those who happily control them never ends well.

Look at the American Revolution. History may look at the upheaval of the US as very justified.