Ranchers vs BLM Oregon this time

[GunnyFreedom]

Is this the case where the government came back and said he had not served enough time after he served the time given to him?

Irwin Schiff, what happened to him?

Now regardless of if they explicitly told him to make that statement, after years of harassment and a prison sentence over your head, one might be implicitly coerced into doing or saying things they otherwise might not have done/said.

Maybe he'd rather not be moved so far away from his family as to make visitation practically impossible? Vindictive cocksuckers that they are, it's easy to see why making waves might not be what he thinks is in his best interest.

Regardless, it isn't just about the Hammonds.

According to Ammon Bundy, the Fed's requirement was to not associate with the Bundy's. Explicitly telling the militias not to get involved is an entirely different thing. If the Hammonds wanted the militias involved, all they had to do was stay silent on that. Carry the threat to Fox News and that makes it politically impossibly for the feds to punish them, as that would be extraordinarily illegal and now it's on prime time TV.

Sure, it's not just about the Hammonds, which is why Bundy's actions are a terrible idea. This is about EVERYONE in America who considers themselves part of a militia and who is willing to stand up and take action. Throwing up a strawman in front of the jackboots will make it awfully easy for the feds to undo the scant victories we've already had. We took 2 steps forward at the Bundy Ranch, we don't need to be taking 10 steps backwards now.

There are ways to win and ways to lose. Handing ammunition to your enemy is just not a best practice.

Never, never, never go into an op without a set goal and a clear definable path to victory. I am seeing nothing like that here.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, before, during, or after this event, fuck a BLM.

Bunch of counterproductive tapeworms who ought get real fucking jobs.

They were corrupt before they changed their name. And really, 'the masses' wouldn't know the history of the BLM if I threw a book at them, sooooooo I should care about their ignorant, propagandized opinions why, again?

Because they vote? Fuck their vote.

I suppose this would have been more in line with America if they established a first amendment zone and parked a battalion of pigs to maintain a perimeter.

So just fuck the victory at the Bundy Ranch, let's just undo all of that and set American armed resistance back by 20 years because by God it feels good emotionally.

 

[phill4paul]

Ammon Bundy should mind his own business, and the Hammonds
were convicted of arson on Federal Land.
This place has been a wildlife refuge since 1935.
Events such as this give a bad name to real freedom movements
and militias.
Our constitution provides for the protection and setting aside
of wild areas for conservation purposes.
We are welcome to some degree on these lands but are not
welcome to poach or burn it.
I suspect that the Hammonds and/or Ammon Bundy have an agenda
which is not what it seems.
Nobody should support these criminals.

The proper course is to cordon them off and allow them to starve
until they leave peaceably and prosecute them legally for wasting
resources and disrupting the peace.

You're a very special Snowballflake.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Poking the beast in the eye.

I'm always in favor of things that do that.

It makes the beast act like what it is, gloves off.

Making the beast look like a hero to the idiots across America is not productive, it's counterproductive. This gives the BLM a perfect opportunity to undo the damage that was done at the Bundy Ranch, recover their status, and gain new ground they did not previously have.

Poking the beast in the eye feels good, sure, but if it's going to set the resistance back by 10 or 20 years then it will be that much longer before America is free. You can't do something just because it feels good. We can't afford a strategic failure involving the militia at this point in time. If this action turns the BLM into heros, the only people that will help is the BLM and Washington DC.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

That's where we disagree I guess.

Things are going to have to get much, much worse before they get better.

Well, that's a pretty crazy disagreement to have. I think making fedgov and the BLM more powerful and more respected is a bad idea because it runs directly counter to what we are all supposed to be trying to do. I mean, if the goal is to make DC more powerful then why not get behind Obama, McCain, or Romney? I thought we were trying to fight the beast, not make it happier and more powerful.

 

[phill4paul]

And that would be fine. Thing is that two issues come along with this situation. One, a militia guy somewhere decides to write a check that he expects other militias to cash for him. The polite thing to do is to ask the other militias if they will cover the check before it is written. Second, Bundy Ranch was a militia win, and we can't afford a militia loss - it would be unfortunate to be placed in the position of deciding as to whether or not the deaths of some militia guys would need to be avenged.

I'm going with Pericles on this. It is not like Oregon does not have it's own militia organizations. From appearances none of these support Ammon Bundys and Ryan Paynes actions. I'm sorry, but at this particular time, I do not believe that you go pissing in anothers back yard without their consent. The local militias have laid a ground work locally that can be seriously hampered by the actions of those that are not local, have no idea of the areas politics, militia capability and public relations.
It's just bad form. By all means train, equip and be a QRF if called on.
I've never much cared for this Ryan Payne character. I think this was his call and I'm suspicious of his motives.

 

[donnay]

They should take a stand where the community agrees with them and would stand with them, just like what happened with Cliven Bundy. I don't think the Hammond's community care one way or another.

 

[JK/SEA]

so these 'protesting, mis-guided wannabe militia types get blown up, who should i write my protest letter to, or just say fuck em?

 

[Lucille]

The progs are calling for blood...as usual.

Mike Vanderboegh is suspicious and pissed.

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/01/no-more-free-wacos-national-three.html

Among the other principles is no first use of force. We call this, "No Fort Sumters." To do so would be to surrender the moral high ground. The Founders understood that. Indeed, even the people who responded to the righteous cause of the Bundys at the time of the standoff there understood it. Yet now we have a situation contrived by some of the same people who first showed their true colors in the aftermath of that confrontation throwing this crucial tenet into the garbage can. I refer the reader to my article of yesterday, "Perfect timing for the regime. Federal provocateurs, sociopaths and idiots with a John Brown complex are writing checks that they expect the rest of us to cash in our blood," and to the statement of the Oregon Three Percent organization whose march was exploited by Ammon Bundy and his supporters to achieve the takeover.
[...]
As to the personalities involved, I can say this from personal experience on the ground at the time of the original Bundy confrontation. The sociopathic weasel (and likely fed provocateur) Ryan Payne insinuated himself into the Bundy family by going to church with them and promising to convert to their brand of the LDS church. Whether he actually did or not is unknown to me, but I was told by Bundy himself that this was the reason that they trusted him and took him into their personal defense detail, much as Cleopatra clasped the asp to her own bosom.

In addition, I am informed by someone on the ground out there that Ammon Bundy believes that it is his mission "to make the refuge into some sort of New Jerusalem." The parallels between Ammon and John Brown grow creepier by the minute. Others apparently view this as an opportunity for "suicide by Fed," acting out whatever private demons they have pursuing them.

Boil all of this down and this is what we have left as our own demands, our own declaration, if you will:

Good news, the FBI is involved now

"Yeah, both inside and outside the building, you can bet on it."

 

[tod evans]

They should take a stand where the community agrees with them and would stand with them, just like what happened with Cliven Bundy. I don't think the Hammond's community care one way or another.

CNN had an interview this morning with some "guy" who had a very distinctive lilt to his speech pattern, he wasn't very happy..

That was one of the people CNN set forth to be representative of the locals.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Making the beast look like a hero to the idiots across America is not productive, it's counterproductive. This gives the BLM a perfect opportunity to undo the damage that was done at the Bundy Ranch, recover their status, and gain new ground they did not previously have.

Poking the beast in the eye feels good, sure, but if it's going to set the resistance back by 10 or 20 years then it will be that much longer before America is free. You can't do something just because it feels good. We can't afford a strategic failure involving the militia at this point in time. If this action turns the BLM into heros, the only people that will help is the BLM and Washington DC.

Key word..."if".

Don't get me wrong, I understand your point completely and it is not without solid merit.

It might do just the opposite: a heavy handed and over the top "Waco-esque" response by the central government might ignite and invigorate this effort.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

You're a very special Snowballflake.

Bless his little heart.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Bottom line for me: I'm not going to sit back and criticize men who are doing what I lack the balls to do myself.

Maybe it will hurt, maybe it will help, but in the end, they are putting their lives on the line (literally) for what all of us talk about.

 

[Krugminator2]

Making the beast look like a hero to the idiots across America is not productive, it's counterproductive. This gives the BLM a perfect opportunity to undo the damage that was done at the Bundy Ranch, recover their status, and gain new ground they did not previously have.

Poking the beast in the eye feels good, sure, but if it's going to set the resistance back by 10 or 20 years then it will be that much longer before America is free. You can't do something just because it feels good. We can't afford a strategic failure involving the militia at this point in time. If this action turns the BLM into heros, the only people that will help is the BLM and Washington DC.

I am failing to see the difference between these people and the Ferguson looters or Rodney King rioters. If you don't like a court ruling, you don't threaten with violence. That is not how civilization works. That is how savages act.

They have initiated force. They should be given one opportunity to surrender with no negotiation. If they don't, it is legitimate to use whatever force necessary to get them to surrender. These baboons have nothing in common with libertarianism and shouldn't be glorified.

 

[The Gold Standard]

I'm pretty sure Boobus would be all for a Waco style assault and razing the building to the ground to ensure no one survived, then printing the money to put up a new building.

I don't really know what to think of this. They have every right to stake a claim to unowned land. But big picture, I don't know what this accomplishes unless they have a way of holding this property against government attack. And if these people get out alive, I would be very suspicious that the government is behind it in the first place.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Meh. I suppose being compared to John Brown isn't the worst thing in the world.

The slaves should have just asked for their freedom politely. Or waited until after their deaths for the possibility of their children being free. It's the American way, right?

 

[goldenequity]

"a place you can come for several years..."

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I am failing to see the difference between these people and the Ferguson looters or Rodney King rioters. If you don't like a court ruling, you don't threaten with violence. That is not how civilization works. That is how savages act.

They have initiated force. They should be given one opportunity to surrender with no negotiation. If they don't, it is legitimate to use whatever force necessary to get them to surrender. These baboons have nothing in common with libertarianism and shouldn't be glorified.

It's like when the British passed the Stamp Act. Except some of the glorified founders of this country had a penchant for tarring tax collectors. But you know, they initiated violence by going against the courts of the king and any amount of force necessary would have been justified in quelling the rebellious nature of men who'd rather not be illegitimately bound.

 

[phill4paul]

I am failing to see the difference between these people and the Ferguson looters or Rodney King rioters. If you don't like a court ruling, you don't threaten with violence. That is not how civilization works. That is how savages act.

They have initiated force. They should be given one opportunity to surrender with no negotiation. If they don't, it is legitimate to use whatever force necessary to get them to surrender. These baboons have nothing in common with libertarianism and shouldn't be glorified.

Thank you for dropping by Eduardo, your posts towards incitement are always entertaining.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Bottom line for me: I'm not going to sit back and criticize men who are doing what I lack the balls to do myself.

Maybe it will hurt, maybe it will help, but in the end, they are putting their lives on the line (literally) for what all of us talk about.

I was broke and tried (unsuccessfully) to get funded to go to the Bundy Ranch. I had my gear equipment and weapons packed and ready, and had my routes drawn out to avoiding gun hostile states like Illinois. I have no problem cashing that check. My perspective may be colored by having been an intelligence analyst and working with the G-3 and S-3 shops to formulate fully fleshed out operation plans. I'll stand right up this very hour and [do things I'm not going to talk about online] if there is a clear and achievable route to victory. I wouldn't even be criticizing if I didn't think this stood a far greater chance of making the beast more powerful and making the sheep more compliant. If it was going to have no tangible effect at all, then it wouldn't matter to me. If I thought it would help, I'd be supporting it.