Question from a random Norwegian.

[Demigod]

Well our Norwegian friend did say that he watched a documentary. Perhaps he could post the name of it.

I have watched CNN reporters claim that the refugees they were showing on TV were running from the government forces who were destroying their village when in reality they were running from the insurgents groups who attacked their village in the night and the army was just trying to push them back.The insurgents would take their dead and put civilian clothes on them then call for international observers to see the "bloodbath " and demand help from out side.

Don't trust much of what you see on TV about war

 

[ExPatPaki]

Don't trust much of what you see on TV about war

Yes, well you cannot really trust CNN. Have you ever seen this?

 

[Random Norwegian]

Not really

Yes really. Poland has welcomed the missile defense system.

 

[Random Norwegian]

As you post more, you'll find that people here are not really fans of democracy either.

Thats my impression. It seems a lot of people are very....I'm not sure how to describe it but convinced that the US is far worse than Russia. People ask me about fear mongering and what US media I got access to and stuff like that and I cant help to suspect that they have no access, or atleast do not read European media.

 

[Random Norwegian]

hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahah......

You have really been watching too much movies.The only Soviet republic that has been attacked is Georgia and that is it.Regions such as Chechnya, Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan had been Russian for a very long time.

Russian? Chechnya wants independence. Russia has installed a demagogue dictator. Maybe the US should go back to being a British colony? After alll they were that for a "very long time".

After the Soviet Union broke up they let some secede but some were not allowed although they could have kept all of them under control.40% + of the population in that region is Slavic and Russian is the most spoken language or close second but everyone knows it.

Russia colonized the countries they occupied, everyone knows it. Take Ukraine as one example, 17% Russians. Estonia 25%, Latvia 26.9%

No government will ever let regions to secede without getting something else in return.If the USA federal government had a collapse and some states or regions decided to secede and form new countries after they pull things back together it would try to assimilate them all back.

The Russian federation is the legacy of an empire. Period.

 

[Random Norwegian]

Well our Norwegian friend did say that he watched a documentary. Perhaps he could post the name of it.

Already said I'm trying to remember the name.


I find it fascinating that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul whos all about liberty is willing to defend Russia who is pretty much corrosive to liberty. who cares about the Russian government banning the right to protest by having the police beat protestors who cares about journalists being killed, who cares about the opposition being silenced by coercion.

I get the impression that people are so focused on the errors of the US that they are blind to the world outside the US.

 

[ExPatPaki]

Thats my impression.

I think you misunderstood me. Democracy is not really a good thing and some of the founders of America wrote against it. What we want is constitutional republic. In a democracy 51% of the people can oppress the other 49%. A constitutional republic keeps a check on that.

You may say this is just semantics, but it is crucial to understand the difference and then to note why the western media is always pushing for "democracy, democracy, democracy!"

 

[Demigod]

Russian? Chechnya wants independence. Russia has installed a demagogue dictator. Maybe the US should go back to being a British colony? After alll they were that for a "very long time".




Russia colonized the countries they occupied, everyone knows it. Take Ukraine as one example, 17% Russians. Estonia 25%, Latvia 26.9%



The Russian federation is the legacy of an empire. Period.

And you sent planes to bomb Yugoslavia.You think that you are all so very righteous living on the edge of the world.Most countries in Europe have had to pay a heavy toll of blood to get what they have today.

Slavs living in what is today Russia fought the Turkish tribes in Central Asia for hundreds of years and in the end defeated them.That land was theirs by right of conquest so they could settle all they want.Now too bad that your Viking ancestors had their asses kicked out of everything you conquered but not everyone has had the same faith.

And if 30%+ of people living in the USA identified them self as English you can bet your ass the the UK would consider those territories as theirs just as they consider the Falkland islands theirs although they are half a world away.

 

[ExPatPaki]

I find it fascinating that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul whos all about liberty is willing to defend Russia who is pretty much corrosive to liberty. who cares about the Russian government banning the right to protest by having the police beat protestors who cares about journalists being killed, who cares about the opposition being silenced by coercion.

Well I don't think anyone was really defending Russian atrocities, but it's not really America's responsibility to take care of the Russian government crimes against their own people. This is for the Russian people to take care off.

I get the impression that people are so focused on the errors of the US that they are blind to the world outside the US.

Well, yes, they should be focused on the internal problems of the US and its fast descent into a police state. I do hope you stick around and check out the General Politics section to see articles about that subject matter. And no, people here are actually quite informed, they are not blind to the world outside the US, they just don't feel it is their government's responsibility to use their taxpayers' funds to fix problems overseas.

 

[libertyjam]

Already said I'm trying to remember the name.


I find it fascinating that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul whos all about liberty is willing to defend Russia who is pretty much corrosive to liberty. who cares about the Russian government banning the right to protest by having the police beat protestors who cares about journalists being killed, who cares about the opposition being silenced by coercion.

I get the impression that people are so focused on the errors of the US that they are blind to the world outside the US.

I think this is pretty true, and worse, go outside these forums and the large majority are even more blind due mainly to the propaganda machines that are the news services that you mentioned earlier. Here it is largely due to a demographic but most seem to want to learn.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

People in Europe have been largely disarmed for so long they are ignorant of weapons or their use. They have never been free and have NO CONCEPT of it. They may be well kept slaves, but are slaves just the same. (socialism does that,, same danger here)

Had the French been armed (an armed populace) the Germans would NEVER been able to occupy Paris. They may have attacked,, but would not have been able to hold it.
At most it would have been another stalemate.

Good point. Russia has been invaded by imperial forces with significant military power twice in just the last few centuries (once by the French, another by the Germans). Although geography and climate were important factors, the Russian people were, for the most part, armed and willing to repel invaders.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I can see where you are coming from, but the term militia ultimately means people with rifles, grenades, an RPG and the likes. It will never be tanks, bombers etc because the cost is too high. The militia system is based on an idea that dates back to the time when warfare was based on rifles and artillery.

It's not as high as you might think. It's already possible for civilians to get access to some heavy duty fire power. (check out FPSRussia on youtube) Besides, when we're talking about defensive action, there's not the need for mega-budgets and mega-arsenals and mega-waste. It's true that the militia is an old concept. However, we now have the National Guard-which is already strong enough to be deployed in war zones.

 

[echebota]

Russia colonized the countries they occupied, everyone knows it. Take Ukraine as one example, 17% Russians. Estonia 25%, Latvia 26.9%

I’m so fed up with these collectivists’ terms and simplification of the history to the level of the stupid 5 year old. Not Russia, but socialists/communists criminals that have killed Russian government and half of the Russian population occupied Russian land, and then Ukrainian communists did the same in Ukraine with the help from the Saint Petersburg (Russian capital), and then same happened in many other neighboring lands.

So people living in Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia,... were enslaved by Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Estonian, Latvian, Georgian and other nationals communists/criminals. Get this - the biggest resistance to the communists originated in Russia (White – Red civil war), but unfortunately people in masses in all these places, including the places you mentioned, didn’t rise against communists and many were supporters. And white army lost.

So pay attention – it’s not Russia bad, US good. The 1917 Russian revolution and then revolutions in neighboring lands lead to __TENS OF MILLIONS__ Russians dead, millions dead in other lands, property stolen, economy and liberty destroyed - all of this is a result of the collectivism ideologists, and then pure criminals attracted to huge state power, taking over the people, and people allowing it to happen.

By the way, the same process is gradually taking place in Europe and USA, and if people are stupid enough to not know the history and support collectivism again, they will lose what’s left of their liberty and possibly property. Ironically, the biggest threat to your liberty and property – is not external, but usually internal - as US founding fathers warned.

 

[echebota]

Russian? Chechnya wants independence. Russia has installed a demagogue dictator.

Again, before drawing simplistic conclusions, let’s take a look at the history. I'm all for independence from the bigger state or from the state completely  when it comes from the people. But in Chechnya it never was that clear cut. Last 20 years of Chechen region is a history is CRI (see below) fight for the region resources and people's life control. The periods of the CRI power were not excatly happy times for the people there and all over other regions of Russia (sharia law, forcefully taking over the elected parliament twice, killing civilians in masses, terr acts in hostiptals, schools, metro, blowing civil buildings, ...). I'm not saying that Russian state power is a blessing but CRI is even further away from the liberty ideal CRI also never had a majority support after their actions in 90s.

1991 - there is an attempt of a military power take-over in Moscow and Dudaev (general of the Soviet army in Chechnya) take the opportunity and with his supporters attacks the Chechen Parliament, main radio station and TV center in Grozny (Chechen capitol), killing several people including the chairman of the city counsel, whom they through out of the window. Ironically, Dudaev supports the Moscow power take-over, even though the goal was to go back to USSR Dudaev proclaims Chechen republic independence and his movement Chechen Republic of Ichkeria (CRI) forms a temp government. Later there was a general election for the presidency and parliament (let's assume it was legit) and Dudaev becomes a president. Russia president (Eltsin) agreed to give half of all military arsenal to Chechnya and Russia continues to send money to Dudaev. Chechnya always was a so called "receiver" region with a permanent budget deficit, and by the way it still is.

1991-1994 - Rampant corruption, state-crime structures merger, massive murders (most political and business deals related), massive trains and cars attacks, robberies, main business is kidnapping. Russia continues subsidizing Dudaev and supplies oil, which is not paid for (free) and is sold to the west right away, obviously money nowhere to be found Ethnic cleansing - 250 Russians killed, officially 300 disappeared, thousands had to leave and give up their property. Massive anti-russian propaganda on a state level.

1993- Chechens form several movements as an opposition to Dudaev's CRI. Dudaev loses control of the parliament, constitutional court and police. Chechen Parliament along with the Constitutional court asks for the Dudaev’s resignation. Dudaev officially claims that parliament, constitutional court judges, and police (ministry of the internal affairs) are relieved of their duty Dudaev then storms the building where parliament and constitutional court meetings take place, some arrests follow. He amends the constitution and de facto becomes a supreme ruler of Chechnya. Dudaev openly pushes for Sharia law.

1994- Multiple military conflicts between Chechen opposition and Dudaev's CRI forces. One of the opposition forces was obviously supported from Moscow. Mid of the year - full blown civil war, no side prevails.

1994 - 1995 – First “Chechen war” takes place. Russian federal forces drive CRI to the mountains and rural arias. Chechen Parliament elected by Chechens resumes its function.

1995 - Russian forces and Dudaev's CRI agreed to a cease-fire.

1995 - now - multiple terrorist acts by CRI in Chechnya , Moscow, Dagestan (another Russian region neighboring Chechnya) - hundreds of civilians killed by the attackers (including ethnic Russians, Chechens, and other ethnic origins). Attack targets are - schools, hospitals, metro, civil buses, civil buildings.... All of the attacks took place with the explicit presence of CRI and responsibility taken by CRI. So no denying the fact of the CRI responsibility except one shady attempt of the Moscow building demolition (which I’ll explain later).

1996 – operation “Jihad” – CRI takes control of the Grozny again and pushes federal forces out of the city.


To be continued with the “second Chechen war” timeline …

 

[Verrater]

Already said I'm trying to remember the name.


I find it fascinating that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul who's all about liberty is willing to defend Russia who is pretty much corrosive to liberty. who cares about the Russian government banning the right to protest by having the police beat protesters who cares about journalists being killed, who cares about the opposition being silenced by coercion.

I get the impression that people are so focused on the errors of the US that they are blind to the world outside the US.

I would personally disagree. I don't think Russia poses a real threat because of simple economics. If Putin, by some miracle, implements his natural gas plans, corners the global market, and becomes the economic powerhouse of eastern Europe, then maybe. Only then you might see them make a power grab and Chechnya and Georgia. The economic impact of the last Georgian incursion was devastating and invading Norway would be a bad move tactically and economically. It would cause more trouble than it would be worth to Russia.

What people here are worried about is committing lives and money of our people to defend a foreign government who has willingly let itself become dependent on us. I understand the charity argument, and it is a welcomed idea but that is ultimately left to the people and not the President. I think of defense in large scale, like i think of it in small scale. Why would I ever depend on someone else from a huge bureaucracy, that can't pay its own debts to do a job I could do 10x better? I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb overall.

All in all war with Russia, if Norway were to be invaded, would come down to the American people and their representatives to declare war. President Paul wouldn't have much say on the matter other than to write his representative and express his opinion. This is where the main difference is between a Paul administration and a neocon one, in my opinion.

 

[Demigod]

Russia has absolutely no interests in Eastern And Northern Europe for resources.Their interest for resources lie in Kazakhstan and the rest of the Central Asia region which is getting rich as hell in the past few years from oil and gas sales.

They can not afford a war nor need one all they need is getting new economical partners in Eastern Europe ( you can get a free trade agreement with Russia if you are a friendly country already a few countries from Eastern Europe have the agreement ) ,fixing their reputation and having a political control over Central Asia while denying complete control over the middle east.

And at the moment they are doing great in all fields.

 

[echebota]

Russian? Chechnya wants independence. Russia has installed a demagogue dictator.

Second “Chechen war” (see “fist Chechen war” description in my previous post):

1996 – 1999 Russian federal forces are moved out of Chechnya. Chechnya becomes ruled by the criminals again: economy collapses, multiple Russian, French, UK, Ukrainian, Chechen business and administration leaders are kidnapped and killed (including official representative from the Russian Internal Affairs Ministry), oil is being stolen from the wells/pipes, drug business is flourishing (this is the only part I have no problems with ) and drugs are distributed to the west and to other Russian regions. companies can not operate, non-native Chechens are driven out of the region, training camps are setup with foreign trainers indoctrinating and training young Muslims from all over Russia.

CIR, controlled by the fundamentalists at that time, and Islamic International Peace Brigade or IIPB (Jihad fighters foreign force, led by Arab Hatab) constantly attack Russian military and police posts on the Chechen – Dagestan border. In 1999 CIR and IIPB performs about 30 military attacks on the Dagestan - another Russian region, not even part of Chechnya.

1999 - Aug 7, 1999 CIR and Islamic International Peace Brigade launch a massive attack on Dagestan. They planned to enlist the Dagestan population to a Jihad course but didn't get any measurable support.

Mashadov, Chechen president at that time, didn’t support the CIR and IIPB actions, but could do nothing about it.

Russian president Eltsin signs an order to “clean the illegal criminal formations on the territory of Chechnya”.

1999-2000 – CIR and IIPB are neutralized by the Russian army.

2003 – Chechen referendum – people in Chechnya vote 95% to stay within the Russian federation with partial independence (its constitution, parliament, president). And that’s the way it is now. Off course, the Chechen president has a big "support" from Moscow. I don't deny that.

2000-2009 - multiple terrorist acts are performed by CIR and IIPB against civilian population all over Russia. Hundreds dead many more wounded.

______________

So it's not so clear cut as "Chechnya wants independance, and Russia invades" anymore - is it?

 

[ZenBowman]

This raises an important point: Why are we subsidizing nations that are richer than us (per-capita) on defense? It certainly doesn't make sense to me.

Should we have strong ties with Norway? Yes.
Should we subsidize their defenses? No.