Question for anarchists - How would you handle national defense?

I'm not communicating this well. Let's say, allasuddenlike....BAM ...the federal government DISSAPPEARS. You're a 'free man', right? No, as you still are subject to the authority of your state. So life goes on, everyone doing all their regular life stuff, for let's say, 20 years. And then, out of the blue, Canada attacks Wisconsin (to gain access to all the cheese fields) and Michigan (because they're tired of the smell). Wisconsin and Michigan can't defend against Canada on their own (well, maybe they could, but that's a different story), so their governments create a partnership. And lets say Minnesota and North Dakota join them, and they form a federation....the "FSA"...."Frozen States of America." The FSA is an agreement of governments, not individuals. Each individual is subject ONLY to their respective state, each government is subject (upon agreement) to the federation. The federation itself has no authority over individuals. Does this make sense?

Right, I get that part. The benefits of a state being sovereign I understand.

The part I don't understand, is that repealing the 14th doesn't seem to address the problem of secession, and a state that cannot secede is not sovereign.

each government is subject (upon agreement) to the federation

If this comes as a package deal with the 14th then yes repealing the 14th may be an effective solution.

It makes logical sense that if an individual is not subject to the authority of the federal government, that the state shouldn't be either, but unfortunately our Judicial Branch isn't always logical.

They may decide that individuals aren't subject to the authority of the federal government, but states are. Which means implicitly that individuals are subject to the authority of the federal government.

It just seems like it would be more straight forward, and likely easier, to get a right of secession amendment. Which would accomplish many of the same things as repealing the 14th, but more importantly, this would guarantee each state's sovereignty.
 
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what are you gonna do about it? talk?
Oh indeed I am going to talk about it. Until very recently many people did not understand that the Federal Reserve System is simply a criminal counterfeiting ring that has achieved the right to steal the wealth of the world. The more I talk about it ... the more people learn that the Feds are the ones responsible for unemployment, homelessness, and wars. Yeah, I'm not going to stop talking about it until we end the Fed. On a personal level I am determined to not keep much fiat currency in banks because as they print more fake currency then commodities will maintain their purchasing power. I intend to use commodities as a hedge against the inflation of the thieves.

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." - Lord John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Consequences of Peace"
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison
"Our goal is gradually to absorb the wealth of the world." - Cecil Rhodes, "The secret banking cabal"
 
Oh indeed I am going to talk about it. Until very recently many people did not understand that the Federal Reserve System is simply a criminal counterfeiting ring that has achieved the right to steal the wealth of the world. The more I talk about it ...

Talking about it isn't going to do shit. I talk about it, tell them every single reason why the Fed is immoral, how it's theft, doesn't work, doesn't need to exist, enriches the rich, etc...

They say: "well there's probably a good reason for it."

I say "there's not"

They say "then why do we have it?"

I say "for all the reasons I just listed... the rich & powerful benefit, etc, insert spiel here..."

They say "well, there's probably a good reason for it."

Good luck with your talking about it...
 
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Talking about it isn't going to do shit. I talk about it, tell them every single reason why the Fed is immoral, doesn't work, doesn't need to exist, enriches the rich, etc...

They say: "well there's probably a good reason for it."

I say "there's not"

They say "then why do we have it?"

I say "for all the reasons I just listed... the rich & powerful benefit, etc, insert spiel here..."

They say "well, there's probably a good reason for it."

Good luck with your talking about it...
I completely disagree. Repetition works. Back in the 80's, I pulled a $50 from my wallet and a $1. It dawned on me that whoever was making the bills had a total advantage over me. At the time it took me 1/2 day to make 50 bucks. Then one of my customers had a $10,000 bill framed on his wall. Salmon P. Chase is the $10k Federal Reserve Note poster child. Well it took me nearly 1/2 YEAR to make $10k but they could make $10,000 for the same cost as a $1?

I went back to school to learn how that worked. What I learned was Keynesian bullshit of macro & micro economics. Not until I learned of Ron Paul did I learn that the counterfeiters were getting rich off my labor. Murray Rothbard's "The Mystery of Banking", and Eustace Mullins' "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" and I've been a stanch Ron Paul supporter ever since. I'm not an anarchist because I own property and anarchy is a nomadic philosophy, but counterfeiters are the ones stealing the wealth from you and your family. Anarchy doesn't hold a candle to the thieves. They tell you that straight up.
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild international Banking Dynasty, 1790
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power of money should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But, if you want to continue to be the slave of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit." - Sir Josiah Stamp, President, Bank of England (2nd richest man in England)
All people have to do is listen. Tell the world and tell them with confidence.
 
All people have to do is listen.

The problem is people are so closed minded based on a combination of indoctrination and a natural tendency towards tyranny.

They're not going to listen. They may listen to actions (such as secession) but they most certainly will not listen to words.
 
The problem is people are so closed minded based on a combination of indoctrination and a natural tendency towards tyranny.

They're not going to listen. They may listen to actions (such as secession) but they most certainly will not listen to words.
The liberty movement is moving forward by leaps and bounds. I went to my GOP county assembly last week and we garnered 75% of the vote.
 
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't match what's happening nationally
On TV, radio, and newspapers... yeah. They are lying to you. The Federal Reserve System is a group of criminal counterfeiters. They don't tell you that because Washington D.C. receives $3 trillion from the rest of America each year in income tax. Facts are facts. At our county assembly we won 75% of the delegates for liberty and most of the local candidates running were "End The Fed" people.
 
On TV, radio, and newspapers... yeah. They are lying to you. The Federal Reserve System is a group of criminal counterfeiters. They don't tell you that because Washington D.C. receives $3 trillion from the rest of America each year in income tax. Facts are facts. At our county assembly we won 75% of the delegates for liberty and most of the local candidates running were "End The Fed" people.

I guess we'll find out at Tampa
 
I guess we'll find out at Tampa
I'm not saying that Ron Paul wins the GOP. I hope he does, but what I am saying is that repetition works. More and more people are understanding who it is that holds the whip. The more people learn that the Federal Reserve System is simply a criminal counterfeiting ring of rich guys in Armani suits... the better.
 
Travlyr..you asserted back a few pages that making the state illegal is no solution...but then why make any mafia illegal? And if you can see why any other mafia is illegal, what rationalization (and that's what it is) do you have for making an exception for your favorite mafia; the state?

BTW, we don't need to "pass a law" to make the mafia (state) illegal...we need to end the monopoly on law it hoolds via monopolization of social contracts in it's territorial demesne. Once the monopoly is over, and competition in social contracts and law are allowed in the same geographic area, mafia and all it's extortion, kidnapping, and murder are de facto outlawed according to natural law (or the utilitarian equivalent).

Why would I EVER suggest passing a "law" through the very mafia I'm trying to outlaw? Why would I ever try to end the monopoly by asking the monopoly to end it?

Think a little bit here.
 
Travlyr..you asserted back a few pages that making the state illegal is no solution...but then why make any mafia illegal? And if you can see why any other mafia is illegal, what rationalization (and that's what it is) do you have for making an exception for your favorite mafia; the state?

BTW, we don't need to "pass a law" to make the mafia (state) illegal...we need to end the monopoly on law it hoolds via monopolization of social contracts in it's territorial demesne. Once the monopoly is over, and competition in social contracts and law are allowed in the same geographic area, mafia and all it's extortion, kidnapping, and murder are de facto outlawed according to natural law (or the utilitarian equivalent).

Why would I EVER suggest passing a "law" through the very mafia I'm trying to outlaw? Why would I ever try to end the monopoly by asking the monopoly to end it?

Think a little bit here.
Be honest. You are the one claiming the way to eliminate the state is to make the state illegal. Not me. I favor rule of law as prescribed by Dr. Ron Paul the "Champion of the Constitution."
 
Why would I EVER suggest passing a "law" through the very mafia I'm trying to outlaw? Why would I ever try to end the monopoly by asking the monopoly to end it?

I do think there should be a Constitution of sorts. Non-binding, but as a general guideline of what to expect when you join the community.

Mine would have only 1 guideline:
"Every contract should have a means of dissolution" for this is the essence of liberty from which all other liberties rely upon.
 
Be honest. You are the one claiming the way to eliminate the state is to make the state illegal. Not me. I favor rule of law as prescribed by Dr. Ron Paul the "Champion of the Constitution."

It's not my fault you buy into memes and refuse to think. Don't ask me rhetorical questions then next time. You asked how I'd abolish the state, you came back with the same memes you're dropping now.

Outlawing the state is a matter of ending it's monopolies of coercion, not passing a law through your favorite mafia. You have offered no retort to any of the concepts besides "Ron Paul, appeal to authority, herp derp".

And as far as "land law"...you need to read anthropology...property rights PRECEED the state...it's a not magical unicorn that defends your property rights by destroying them. It just destroys them. Every tax makes you a property renter, not owner, to whatever type of property they're taxing (extorting).
 
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I do think there should be a Constitution of sorts. Non-binding, but as a general guideline of what to expect when you join the community.

Mine would have only 1 guideline:
"Every contract should have a means of dissolution" for this is the essence of liberty from which all other liberties rely upon.

If you want a non-monopoly social contract, have at it..leave others who don't want to be judged by anything but harm and fraud out of it. You don't require territory to sign a social contract.

I'm totally against masochistic governance beyond myself:

If you have the mental and physical ability to govern yourself, you have the right to govern yourself. If no one or their property is harmed in that self governance, then all compulsory external government is tyranny. --- Me

That's my idea of liberty...anti-democratic, anti-social contract, pro-individual sovereignty. But notice, I allow you to engage in masochistic social contracts if you want, but only with other willing participants with no regard to terrirtorial monopolies on social contracts and the law they perscribe. If you try to monopolize social contracts or law you essentially become a tyrant. Voluntaryism is fine by me, even though I'm an anarchist...but I ask the Voluntaryists not to start another state.

state=sadism

voluntary government=masochism

self government=liberty (to me).

If you want less liberty than self govt, fine...just don't ban me from it. If you do=tyranny.
 

I wasn't talking about a social contract. I was talking about a shared philosophy. For a nation to work, anarchist or not, they must share a philosophy.

In the scope of anarchism, there are many guiding principles, but at the heart of it is NAP. At the heart of NAP, is the idea that all people are sovereign to themselves.

In an anarchy, common law will differ from land to land, as will the form of governance, masochism, self government, how they handle property rights, whether they have property rights at all for that matter, how they police themselves, or whether they police themselves at all, etc, but among all of this is one unifying principle:

Every arrangement must have a means of dissolution.

First, and foremost, this means every individual has a natural right of secession. It also means that if you enter into a contract with someone, there should be a means, either explicit or implicit, to get out of the contract.

So, for example, if you own a plot of land that is situated next to a communist enclave, and you decide to join them. When you join them, your land then belongs to their community, because it is a communist community after all.

What happens if you don't like it? If they are assholes about it, you lose your land, because they say it belongs to them. You're forced to either stay there, or leave and be homeless. For a lot of people this would not be a reasonable choice.

People will make dumb decisions. They will trust themselves to varying levels and types of "voluntary" government. But there are varying levels of "voluntary". Once your livelihood depends on the contract you've agreed upon, it is really no longer voluntary. Once it's no longer voluntary, they own you, they take advantage of you, and it becomes less and less voluntary. This is how the State is created.

So if you enter into the agreement to join your land with theirs, the agreement should have, either implicitly or explicitly, a way for you to leave the arrangement in a fair manner. Unless otherwise agreed upon when you joined their community, you should have a reasonable expectation to get your land back when you leave. If they've developed the land for you, that complicates things, but the basic principle is that you should be able to get out of the contract in a manner fair to both parties.

Again, just a guideline, or a shared philosophy. This principle is central to both freedom and the prevention of the State.
 
It's not my fault you buy into memes and refuse to think. Don't ask me rhetorical questions then next time. You asked how I'd abolish the state, you came back with the same memes you're dropping now.

Outlawing the state is a matter of ending it's monopolies of coercion, not passing a law through your favorite mafia. You have offered no retort to any of the concepts besides "Ron Paul, appeal to authority, herp derp".

And as far as "land law"...you need to read anthropology...property rights PRECEED the state...it's a not magical unicorn that defends your property rights by destroying them. It just destroys them. Every tax makes you a property renter, not owner, to whatever type of property they're taxing (extorting).

:thumbs up:
 
In an anarchy, common law will differ from land to land

No, no ,no. In anarchism there is no geographic area with a certain law...there are contracts (or social contracts if you prefer). You can have one law, and your neighbors on either side can have second law and a third law. In fact, you can sign up for any extreme or the other based on whatever contract you prefer. Polycentric law isn't limited by area...except where they run into states at the edges of a free territory. But in that free territory, there is no land area that have specific laws for all those that enter it. Look up panarchism.

And the word "nation" is dangerous. It implies nationalism...a form of collectivism that always preceeds a state. I'm against nationalism and statism. So the idea an anarchist "nation" will occur bothers me. A free territory will exist, not a nation. But I agree, a shared philosophy must be shared initially (to abolish the state)...but not uniformly, obviously. Only 1/3 of Americans were for secession from England, and they seceded. We need but a large and loud minority to achieve abolition of the state. But once it's abolished, people will naturally take to anarchism (or panarchism) and Voluntaryism. Not many will choose to pay taxes if they don't have to...plus it'd be donation at that point, not tax anyways. After that happens, and the state is understood to be illegal, not many will accept their new entitlement to economic and social liberty being revoked to re-instate the state. It's kind of a self perpetuating social norm. In that way, we'll have our necessary philosophical understanding in society...but with no uniformity in law (social contract for most).

I say "for most" because I'll choose no social contract (private law) beyond harm and fraud. Some will choose much more or much less. Some will choose that they and all their voluntary participant contract-mates will be penalized for using drugs, for instance. Some will choose to make income redistribution a legal requirement under their voluntary social contract. I'll stick to harm and fraud only. Some will choose to have democratic functions, or worse, in their social contracts...I'll have none of that. Some will have leaders, I won't. But, in the end, none of these contracts have anything to do with geography.

So it's as easy to get out of law (social contract) as it is a religious institution or switch cable companies. It's got nothing to do with locality.

Watch the videos here, bottom of the page...at least the last 3, and read about panarchism and panarchist synthesis:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?369158-Deconstructing-the-state&p=4316866#post4316866


What happens if you don't like it? If they are assholes about it, you lose your land, because they say it belongs to them. You're forced to either stay there, or leave and be homeless. For a lot of people this would not be a reasonable choice.

Well here we have a property rights issue, but not like you assert. If you decide to hand over ownership to anyone, you no longer have ownership. When you join a commune and decide "property is theft", you no longer own your home, you "possess" it. You can't reneg on that contract because you no longer like the deal. The collective now owns the property. You can leave anytime you want, with an expensive lesson learned. If you did the same but retained property rights (like a market anarchist community), then you can sell your property or not, whatever, as it is still yours. But you're suggesting this person break their agreement after they have already essentially given away their property to the collective commune...that's not possible. That's like saying you sell me your property, and live there as a renter. But you don't like my rules, and after you spend all the money I gave you to buy the property, now all of a sudden you want to claim it's yours again.

I don't think so.

This doesn't create a state....the land area claim of social contract monopoly (law monopoly in an area) does. The state is defined by monopolies, not reneg ability on deals you've made. If you donate your property to any collective (church, commune, union, etc.) you can't get it back. I'd suggest if you think you need a way out you don't hand over ownership rights. Otherwise we'll have people reclaiming used cars 6 months after the sale is completed.

Monopolies in certain geographic areas, starting with social contract and it's laws, is how a state is initially formed. From there it's police to enforce the laws, fire, money, etc.

Nothing more is needed to prevent a state than abolition and outlawing of such coerced monopolies.
 
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