Putin The Guilty

[TheCount]

Another aspect to this is that Putin and Lukashenko are among the very few leaders in the developed world that are actively supporting policies that preserve their culture, borders, and identity.

Many people identify with this, myself included.

Which culture, borders, and identity are the "right" ones for Russia, and why are they the USSR's culture, borders, and identity?

 

[TheTexan]

The nice thing about invasions is that all the people that you're killing tend to leave and after you control the territory, you can replace them with whoever you want.


Ever wonder why Crimea is full of Russians and not Crimean Tatars?

Yawn

 

[Brian4Liberty]

The nice thing about invasions is that all the people that you're killing tend to leave and after you control the territory, you can replace them with whoever you want.


Ever wonder why Crimea is full of Russians and not Crimean Tatars?

Pick your point in time, a given area can have entirely different peoples. Soviets kicked some out and imported Russians for the Soviet Military and Naval bases.

The Tatar ethnicity was created from all of the various (6 or more) peoples that already lived there around 1600. Maybe Greece should invade to reclaim their portion of ancient lands.

 

[Invisible Man]

The nice thing about invasions is that all the people that you're killing tend to leave and after you control the territory, you can replace them with whoever you want.


Ever wonder why Crimea is full of Russians and not Crimean Tatars?

Invasion?

What are you talking about invasion?

An invasion is when foreigners come into a country peacefully and get jobs there.

 

[TheCount]

Invasion?

What are you talking about invasion?

An invasion is when foreigners come into a country peacefully and get jobs there.

It's a defense of your... "culture" when you shell a city that you think belongs to you and displace its inhabitants to return it to its "proper state."

It's a hostile invasion (of your "culture") when someone parks a taco truck on a streetcorner in your town.


(extra bonus, that counts even if that streetcorner and that town are on territory that used to be Mexican)

 

[Madison320]

I have to disagree.

States are not inherently bad. The only "bad" thing that states do, is refuse to uphold the right of secession for its citizens.

Something resembling the US, and Russia, would still exist, even in a voluntaryist world.

The issue I have is with anarchists. Their argument is that states are always bad therefore we need to get rid of them. The whole idea is silly since it's impossible for any given area to not have a state. There's always going to be somebody with the most force in a given area that is making the rules. That's the state. That's the nature of force. So the only debate is how to make the least bad state.

 

[Invisible Man]

The only "bad" thing that states do, is refuse to uphold the right of secession for its citizens.

That refusal to allow secession is the essences of the institution of the state. It's what makes states states.

It's why voluntary organizations like churches, with the governments that they have, don't count as states.

 

[Madison320]

Unfortunately, when distilled down to the lowest common denominator, the only remaining international debate is about whose repression and tyranny is good, and whose is bad.

"Our repression is good, moral and noble. Your repression is totalitarian, immoral and evil."

At least I think most of us can agree that the US should stay out of this.

I was just surprised about repressed economically the Ukraine is. From reading the headlines you'd think Russia was an evil empire taking over the Ukraine, a bastion of liberty. That's my fault for getting sucked in to the mainstream opinion.

 

[nobody's_hero]

It's a defense of your... "culture" when you shell a city that you think belongs to you and displace its inhabitants to return it to its "proper state."

It's a hostile invasion (of your "culture") when someone parks a taco truck on a streetcorner in your town.


(extra bonus, that counts even if that streetcorner and that town are on territory that used to be Mexican)

Right. I'm sure ideology has nothing to do with it. Just food trucks and skin color.

That's obviously what this war in Ukraine is about.

I don't know how much more simple-minded you can be to relegate the meaning of culture into little more than race and diet. I understand why you do, though, because you like to [*try* to] belittle other people by crying like a liberal ninny about some perceived "muH RaCisM!"

It's just kinda getting old.

 

[sparebulb]

Which culture, borders, and identity are the "right" ones for Russia, and why are they the USSR's culture, borders, and identity?

USSR doesn't exist anymore.

Why are you using MSM talking points?

 

[sparebulb]

Which culture, borders, and identity are the "right" ones....

In the case of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk, it would be Russian.

By popular demand of the residents.

 

[pcosmar]

It's a defense of your... "culture" when you shell a city that you think belongs to you and displace its inhabitants to return it to its "proper state."

The Count wants these poor folks Protected. so does Facebook.

My post wishing them Removed from the Earth,,was removed..a violation of community standards..

I like Mr Putin's Standards..just wipe them out.

 

[TheTexan]

That refusal to allow secession is the essences of the institution of the state. It's what makes states states.

It's why voluntary organizations like churches, with the governments that they have, don't count as states.

Quite so.

 

[nobody's_hero]

Except the residents of Mexico might be less imperialistic and arrogant, and might not approve of their military defending foreign soil. They might even decide anyone who wants the same protection they get should pay the same taxes they pay. Not everyone was brainwashed for eighty years to believe war is prosperity.

So where's the line between helping them escape the tyrant and taking them over then?

I don't think we've seen the line yet.

I said weeks ago that this is war. If it looks like an invasion, it's because he is 'in it to win it.'

No one will know if this was an annexation or not until the peace talks happen (or are allowed to happen). Putin's goal seems to be to cripple Ukraine's ability to fight, not just push them to a sort of 38th' parallel and be like okay everyone play nice now. He probably doesn't want to have to do it over again by leaving the job half-finished. If Donbass and Lugansk get independence and Russia leaves but Ukraine has the ability to just go right back in and continue shelling their own people, then it's a completely wasted effort (assuming that's the intent).

I could yet be proven wrong. Maybe he ends up taking all of Ukraine. But I think he's smarter than to annex an entire region where the vast majority of people would be causing problems down the line. As folks around here used to say "You can't win an occupation."

 

[pcosmar]

I don't think we've seen the line yet.

I said weeks ago that this is war. If it looks like an invasion, it's because he is 'in it to win it.'

No one will know if this was an annexation or not until the peace talks happen (or are allowed to happen). Putin's goal seems to be to cripple Ukraine's ability to fight, not just push them to a sort of 38th' parallel and be like okay everyone play nice now. He probably doesn't want to have to do it over again by leaving the job half-finished. If Donbass and Lugansk get independence and Russia leaves but Ukraine has the ability to just go right back in and continue shelling their own people, then it's a completely wasted effort (assuming that's the intent).

I could yet be proven wrong. Maybe he ends up taking all of Ukraine. But I think he's smarter than to annex an entire region where the vast majority of people would be causing problems down the line. As folks around here used to say "You can't win an occupation."

More of a "Police Action" from my observation.. Certainly not a war.. I have watched enough Live Stream to confirm that much.

He is going after the rats and snakes. Securing the dangers. eliminating Threats.

 

[CCTelander]

Hi. I'm just popping into this thread to remind everyone that all states are bad, not just ours.

But, please do continue imagining that Putin and the Russian state is full up of altruistic intentions.

HATE THE STATE, IN ALL IT'S MANIFESTATIONS. Whatever he is doing, it is for HIS benefit. Not for anyone else's. He wouldn't be doing it, otherwise.

This goes here.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?558191-Message-to-a-Mini-Statist-by-L-Neil-Smith&p=7097977#post7097977

 

[TheCount]

Pick your point in time, a given area can have entirely different peoples. Soviets kicked some out and imported Russians for the Soviet Military and Naval bases.

The Tatar ethnicity was created from all of the various (6 or more) peoples that already lived there around 1600. Maybe Greece should invade to reclaim their portion of ancient lands.

Quite.

Every vision of an ethnostate relies upon a snapshot in history deemed to be the 'correct' one. Usually, it's whatever came before the current state of the world. To Putin, the USSR is the 'correct' homeland of the Russian people (and no one else, likely), and it is 'correct' for it to be unified under his rule.

He said as much in his pre-invasion speech.

 

[TheCount]

In the case of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk, it would be Russian.

By popular demand of the residents.

Why didn't the residents demand that before Russian tanks were involved?

 

[TheCount]

The Count wants these poor folks Protected. so does Facebook.

My post wishing them Removed from the Earth,,was removed..a violation of community standards..

I like Mr Putin's Standards..just wipe them out.

If Mr. Putin's standards are to wipe them out, why is this man the leader of his most-used mercenary force?

 

[TheCount]

More of a "Police Action" from my observation.. Certainly not a war.. I have watched enough Live Stream to confirm that much.

He is going after the rats and snakes. Securing the dangers. eliminating Threats.

Who uses rocket artillery during a "police action?"