Are you deliberately misrepresenting everything I said?
No, I am pointing out that your claims are without merit. Can you show me anywhere in the Holy Scriptures where there was not some physical rite of action performed in the ordination of the priesthood? Anywhere in the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The very fact of the matter which you keep belittling is that the clearly described apostolic tradition (of the very Apostles!) was to lay hands upon the recipient. This happened before the transference of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the Acts of the Apostles.
Where is it the proof that you have that there was another way to ordain clergy according to the New Testament?
You have none my dear friend. Instead, you are adding to the apostolic tradition.
And then on top of that, you go to great ludicrous heights and say that the laity were ordaining clergy! Using absolutely no proof! Wow!
I never said, or implied, or came close to implying that the phrase, "lay hands on," used in Acts 8:17 and elsewhere, meant voting.
I made that remark about the word cheirotoneo, which is the word used in Didache 15:1. And I proved it.
No, you have proved nothing. You have shown that the word cheirotoneo can mean select or voted. Great! It doesn't mean this at the exclusion of how it was understood by the Church and practiced in according to the Apostles which was in the laying of the hands in succession and sacramental unity back to the hands of the Apostles. These are in fact the historical and Scriptural truths which the Apostles initiated and which the Church has held fast to from the very beginning and which are utterly being disregarded by you for convenience sake.
...How you somehow weave the Reformation into this I can't fathom.
Because it has everything to do with the OP and why many Reformers change traditions on their own authority. There is not just one Pope! There are millions, all deciding on truth, as if their relative understanding of truth automatically equates to the absolute truths as they really are in time and space and in the Holy Spirit of God.
I get it! Your interpretation is the greatest authority for you! Unfortunately, it is not the greatest authority for me. I choose the witness of the Church to have more significance and power and weight than you erowe. Not that I am something greater than you! But because I can see that I am less and submit myself to those who are greater then me in my sober humility and acknowledgment of my sins.
I can't just ignore Scripture and Holy Tradition so that I can agree with your personal ideas. Especially when they are innovative traditions apart from the witness of the Church. I am sure you are a very bright man, but I think you simply have lost the forest from the trees with regards to this topic. Only the humble will enter into the Kingdom, and there is no humility in proclaiming things against the universal witness of the Saints (which you do often). Lent is a perfect time for repentance and prayer for everyone.
St. Ignatius (the man whom you believe you know more than when it comes to the teachings of the Apostles) describes very clearly in his writings a monarchial episcopy, a phenomenon which was already established throughout Christendom, at a time where there were Bishops of entire cities. In fact the greatest Christian city at that time at the turn of the first century was the city of Antioch, the city where St. Paul was groomed by the Apostles in anticipation of his Apostolic ministry to the Gentiles. The Church of Antioch, filled with many first and second generation of Christians, and which was the shining city on the hill and the example to all the Christian world, was presided over by the God-bearing Martyr Saint of Christ Ignatius. He constantly exhorted his addressees to respect their bishop and urged them to “defer to him, or, rather, not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of all men”.
This comparison of the bishop with God the Father is found throughout the Epistles.
Christians are to follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, to follow the presbyters as though they were the Apostles, and to honor the deacons (Eph. 6, Trall. 3, Magn. 6-7, and elsewhere).
“Apart from these, there is no Church”
Also exhorting the teachings of the Apostles:
Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself.… Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God. (Eph. 5)
The work of the Church included not only the care and instruction of those who were to be baptized, but also the take care of the widows and the orphans and beggars and travelers. They gave themselves over as a community in faith, at times enemies of the State because they worshiped Christ as the true and only Lord and King. They worshiped in eucharistic liturgies from the beginning, sharing in the Body and Blood of Christ and grew into the magnificent and enduring form that it is today. The entire Church is centered around the Sacrament of the Church which is the Holy Eucharist. This is the very entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven and the realization of the Church for what it is - a communion of believers united to one another and with God. For in this sacred time, symbols manifest the very realities they are symbolizing, time is suspended, and there is entrance into the Heavenly Kingdom in unity of faith, mind, praise, and glory, not as mere individuals (for the individual lacks personhood) or in intellectual pride, but in true and fulfilled communion with God and His beloved saints. In the image of the Trinity, which is communal love - self-giving and self-sacrificing. So too in the image of the Cross. Then we can share in the Heavenly Glory as described in the Book of Revelation, praying before angels and amongst the Saints.
There is One Bride and One Body and there is One Church just as the there is One Christ and One Father. These are the teachings of the Apostles and of those who they ordained by the laying of the hands, such as St. Ignatius, who were leaders of the catholic Church sharing in eucharistic communion and espousing the orthodox practice and teachings of the Apostles. The truths of his writings are proven by the 'amen' of the Church, of the perseverance and great accomplishments of the same Church in proclaiming the Gospel, of the working of the Holy Spirit within the community, and of the glory and grace given to God to and through His Church, who praise Him and glorify Him with offers and prayers, in unity of mind and faith and spirit. In divine love.
Resonating closer to the truth and given true life by the very Body and Blood of Christ Who nourishes the members, strengthens them, and indeed, unifies them, to be one with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, just as Christ prayed the night He was arrested and His Apostles have taught in the Church's establishment of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. The forms established in the New Testament and continued after the last page of Acts of the Apostles.
You see, erowe, the Acts of the Apostles is not the end of the Church, but just the beginning. The Holy Spirit has never stopped guiding the Church. Out of convenience sake, you stop at the Acts of the Apostles (unless of course you are trying to show that laity ordained clergy! Then you play word tricks to justify a new tradition apart from the Scriptures.
If one approaches the doctrines and traditions of the Church through a Solo Scriptura standpoint, then they have to make a liar of MANY MANY people, including some of the most beloved and revered Saints in the history of the Christian Church. I simply believe St. Ignatius had a much better idea of the Apostolic truths than you and the witness of the Church to have more authoritative interpretations then either you or me. Nothing personal. Just what I find to be rational and logical.
