Protestants and a Churchless Tradition: “Sola” vs. “Solo” Scriptura

The list is long. But the great majority of the stories in it are fictional. In churches that have days dedicated to martyrs, many of those days are devoted to people who never existed, or who weren't even Christians, or whose stories are so embellished that there's no telling what's true or false. At least one feast day is devoted to someone who was just a character in a Christianized version of a legend that was originally about Buddha.

For those who are interested in the feast day that some major professing Christian organizations dedicate to Buddha (albeit by a different name), you can read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
 
For those who are interested in the feast day that some major professing Christian organizations dedicate to Buddha (albeit by a different name), you can read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat

Feast day

Although Barlaam and Josaphat were never formally canonized, they were included in earlier editions of the Roman Martyrology (feast day 27 November)[SUP][51][/SUP] — though not in the Roman Missal — and in the Eastern Orthodox Church liturgical calendar (26 August in Greek tradition etc.[SUP][3][/SUP] / 19 November in Russian tradition).[SUP][42][/SUP][SUP][43][/SUP]
I have a calendar of feast days on my wall, and this isn't on it. :confused: Perhaps a wiki writer error?
 
I have a calendar of feast days on my wall, and this isn't on it. :confused: Perhaps a wiki writer error?

This calendar does list Barlaam and Ioasaph, along with a bunch of others for November 19, 2010.
http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/calendar/index.php?year=2010&today=2&month=12&trp=0&tzo=-5

Admittedly, I don't know how those calendars work, and what degree of acceptance this has.

ETA: Here the Antioch Patriarchate has a feast day for Barlaam on November 19, 2014. But the story seems different than Barlaam and Josaphat.
http://antiochpatriarchate.org/en/page/barlaam-of-caesarea/874/
 
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It appears to be a Greek and Russian thing
[h=3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
Feast day[/h] Although Barlaam and Josaphat were never formally canonized, they were included in earlier editions of the Roman Martyrology (feast day 27 November)[SUP][51][/SUP] — though not in the Roman Missal — and in the Eastern Orthodox Church liturgical calendar (26 August in Greek tradition etc.[SUP][3][/SUP] / 19 November in Russian tradition).[SUP][42][/SUP][SUP][43][/SUP]
And even in those traditions they were not canonized. /shrugs
 
It appears to be a Greek and Russian thing
And even in those traditions they were not canonized. /shrugs

What distinguishes canonized from not canonized saints? And what does the label "venerable" mean on that calendar from the Russian Church? Is venerable a title for someone not canonized?
 
And even in those traditions they were not canonized. /shrugs

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What distinguishes canonized from not canonized saints? And what does the label "venerable" mean on that calendar from the Russian Church? Is venerable a title for someone not canonized?

IDK a lot about canonization yet, so take this with a grain of salt. WRT the Russian Church, I can't say because I'm not a member of the ROC (I'm Antiochian). "Venerable" is used in different ways in different contexts. Pastors at individual parishes, for example, can use "Venerable" in their title to indicate seniority/pastorhood. For example, "V. Rev. Fr. Seraphim Slovatski", where "V." means "venerable".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization#Eastern_Orthodox_Church
[h=2]Historical development of the process[/h] The first people honored as saints were the martyrs. Pious legends of their deaths were considered to affirm the truth of their faith in Christ.
The Roman Rite's Canon of the Mass contains the names only of martyrs, along with that of the Virgin Mary and, since 1962, that of Saint Joseph.
By the fourth century, however, "confessors"—people who had confessed their faith not by dying but by word and life—began to be venerated publicly. Examples of such people are Saint Hilarion and Saint Ephrem the Syrian in the East, and Saint Martin of Tours and Saint Hilary of Poitiers in the West. Their names were inserted in the diptychs, the lists of saints explicitly venerated in the liturgy, and their tombs were honoured like those of the martyrs. Since the witness of their lives was not as unequivocal as that of the martyrs, they were venerated publicly only with the approval by the local bishop. This process is often referred to as "local canonization".[SUP][1][/SUP]
This approval was required even for veneration of a reputed martyr. In his history of the Donatist heresy, Saint Optatus recounts that at Carthage a Catholic matron, named Lucilla, incurred the censures of the Church for having kissed the relics of a reputed martyr whose claims to martyrdom had not been juridically proved. And Saint Cyprian (died 258) recommended that the utmost diligence be observed in investigating the claims of those who were said to have died for the faith. All the circumstances accompanying the martyrdom were to be inquired into; the faith of those who suffered, and the motives that animated them were to be rigorously examined, in order to prevent the recognition of undeserving persons. Evidence was sought from the court records of the trials or from people who had been present at the trials.
Saint Augustine of Hippo (died 430) tells of the procedure which obtained in his day for the recognition of a martyr. The bishop of the diocese in which the martyrdom took place set up a canonical process for conducting the inquiry with the utmost severity. The acts of the process were sent either to the metropolitan or primate, who carefully examined the cause, and, after consultation with the suffragan bishops, declared whether the defunct was worthy of the name of 'martyr' and public veneration.
Acts of formal recognition, such as the erection of an altar over the saint's tomb or transferring the saint's relics to a church, were preceded by formal inquiries into the sanctity of the person's life and the miracles attributed to that person's intercession.
Such acts of recognition of a saint were authoritative, in the strict sense, only for the diocese or ecclesiastical province for which they were issued, but with the spread of the fame of a saint, were often accepted elsewhere also.
[h=2]Catholic Church[/h] In the Catholic Church (both the Western and Eastern Catholic Churches), the act of canonization is reserved to the Holy See and occurs at the conclusion of a long process requiring extensive proof that the person proposed for canonization lived and died in such an exemplary and holy way that he or she is worthy to be recognized as a saint. The Church's official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked and mentioned officially in the liturgy of the Church, most especially in the Litany of the Saints. Other churches still follow the older practice (see, for instance, below on the practice of the Orthodox Church).
In the Catholic Church, canonization involves a decree that allows veneration of the saint in the liturgy of the Roman Rite throughout the world. For permission to venerate on a local level, only beatification is needed, not canonization.[SUP][2][/SUP]
[h=3]Medieval procedure[/h]


Pope Pius II canonizes Catherine of Siena


In the Medieval West, the Holy See was asked to intervene in the question of canonizations, so as to ensure a more authoritative decision. The canonization of Saint Udalric, Bishop of Augsburg, by Pope John XV in 993 is the first undoubted example of a papal canonization of a saint from outside Rome; some historians maintain that the first such canonization was that of Saint Swibert by Pope Leo III in 804.
Thereafter, recourse to the judgment of the popes was had with greater frequency. Walter of Pontoise was canonised by Hugh de Boves, the Archbishop of Rouen in 1153; Walter was the last saint in Western Europe to have been canonised by an authority other than the pope.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] “The last case of canonization by a metropolitan is said to have been that of St. Gaultier, or Gaucher, abbot of Pontoise, by the Archbishop of Rouen. A decree of Pope Alexander III, 1170, gave the prerogative to the pope thenceforth, so far as the Western Church was concerned.”[SUP][3][/SUP]
In 1173, Pope Alexander III, after reprimanding certain bishops for having permitted veneration of a man who was far from holy, decreed: "You shall not therefore presume to honour him in the future; for, even if miracles were worked through him, it is not lawful for you to venerate him as a saint without the authority of the Catholic Church."[SUP][5][/SUP]
The procedure initiated by the text of Alexander III, confirmed by a bull of Pope Innocent III in the year 1200, issued on the occasion of the canonization of Saint Cunegunde, led to increasingly elaborate inquiries.
[h=3]From the 18th to the 20th century[/h] In his De Servorum Dei beatifιcatione et de Beatorum canonizatione, the eminent canonist Prospero Lambertini (1675–1758), who later became Pope Benedict XIV, elaborated upon the procedural norms issued by Pope Urban VIII (1623–1644)[SUP][6][/SUP] and the actual established practice. From his time until the 20th century proceedings were governed by his five-volume work published in 1734–1738. Its substance was incorporated into the Code of Canon Law of 1917.[SUP][7][/SUP] The article Beatification and canonization process in 1914 describes the procedures followed immediately before the publication of that Code.
[h=3]Roman Catholic procedure since 1983[/h] Main article: Congregation for the Causes of Saints
Pope John Paul II's apostolic constitution Divinus Perfectionis Magister[SUP][8][/SUP] of 25 January 1983, and the norms issued by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints on 7 February 1983, for its implementation on diocesan level, continued the work of simplification already initiated by Pope Paul VI.[SUP][9][/SUP] In particular, the reforms eliminated the office of the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: promotor fidei), popularly known as the Devil's advocate, who was required to present a case against canonization. Possibly as a result, the rate of canonization increased markedly after 1983.
The steps to canonization that the saints have to go through to become a saint:
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[TH="class: navbox-title, colspan: 2"] Stages of canonization in the Catholic Church
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[TD="class: navbox-list navbox-odd, colspan: 2"] Servant of GodVenerableBlessedSaint
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"Servant of God" – The process leading towards canonization begins at the diocesan level. A bishop with jurisdiction—usually the bishop of the place where the candidate died or is buried, although another ordinary can be given this authority—gives permission to open an investigation into the virtues of the individual, responding to a petition by members of the faithful, either actually or pro forma.[SUP][10][/SUP] This investigation usually opens no sooner than five years after the death of the person being investigated.[SUP][11][/SUP] The pope, as Bishop of Rome, may open a process and has the authority to waive the five-year waiting period, as was done for Mother Teresa by Pope John Paul II,[SUP][12][/SUP] and for Lúcia Santos and for John Paul II himself by Pope Benedict XVI.[SUP][13][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP] Normally, a guild or organization to promote the cause of the candidate's sainthood is created, an exhaustive search of the candidate's writings, speeches and sermons is undertaken, a detailed biography is written and eyewitness accounts are gathered. When sufficient information has been gathered, the investigation of the candidate, who is called "Servant of God", is presented by the local bishop to the Roman Curia—in particular, the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints—where it is assigned a postulator, whose task is to gather further information about the life of the Servant of God. Religious orders who regularly deal with the congregation often have their own designated postulator generals. At some point, permission is then granted for the body of the Servant of God to be exhumed and examined. A certification ("non cultus") is made that no superstitious or heretical worship or improper cult has grown up around the servant or his or her tomb, and relics are taken.
"Venerable/Heroic in Virtue" – When enough information has been gathered, the congregation will recommend to the pope that he make a proclamation of the Servant of God's heroic virtue (that is, that the servant exhibited the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, and the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, to a heroic degree). From this point the one said to be "heroic in virtue" is referred to by the title "Venerable". A Venerable has as yet no feast day, no churches may be built in his or her honor, and the church has made no statement on the person's probable or certain presence in heaven, but prayer cards and other materials may be printed to encourage the faithful to pray for a miracle wrought by his or her intercession as a sign of God's will that the person be canonized.
"Blessed" – Beatification is a statement by the church that it is "worthy of belief" that the person is in heaven, having come to salvation. This step depends on whether the Venerable is a martyr or a "confessor".

  • For a martyr, the Pope has only to make a declaration of martyrdom, a certification that the venerable gave his or her life voluntarily as a witness for the faith and/or in an act of heroic charity for others.
  • If the Venerable was not a martyr – all non-martyrs are "confessors" as they "confessed" or bore witness to their faith by how they lived their lives – it must be proven that a miracle has taken place by his or her intercession: that is, that God has shown a sign that the person is enjoying the Beatific Vision by God performing a miracle in response to the Blessed's prayers. Today, these miracles are almost always miraculous cures, as these are the easiest to establish based on the Catholic Church's requirements for a "miracle." (The patient was sick, there was no known cure for the ailment, prayers were directed to the Venerable, the patient was cured, the cure was spontaneous, instantaneous, complete and lasting, and doctors cannot find any natural explanation.)
This allows beatification, giving the venerable the new title "Blessed" (abbreviated "Bl.") or, in Latin, Beatus or Beata. A feast day will be designated, but its observance is normally restricted to the Blessed's home diocese, to certain locations associated with him or her, and/or to the churches or houses of the blessed's religious order, if they belonged to one. Parishes may not normally be named in honor of a Blessed.
"Saint" (contracted "St" or "S.") To be canonized a saint, at least two miracles must have been performed through the saint's intercession after his or her death (i.e., an additional miracle after that granting beatification). Canonization is a statement by the church that the person certainly enjoys the Beatific Vision. The saint is assigned a feast day which may be celebrated anywhere within the Catholic Church, although it may or may not appear on the general calendar or local calendars as an obligatory feast, parish churches may be built in his or her honor, and the faithful may freely and without restriction celebrate and honor the saint.
In the case of the Eastern Catholic Churches, individual churches sui juris retain, in theory, the right to glorify saints for their own jurisdictions, though this has rarely happened in practice.
Although a recognition of sainthood by the Pope does not directly concern a fact of divine revelation, it must still be "definitively held" by the faithful as infallible under (at the very least) the Universal Magisterium of the Church since it is a truth connected to revelation by historical necessity.[SUP][15][/SUP][SUP][16][/SUP]
[h=3]Equipollent canonization[/h] Popes have several times extended to the whole Church, without carrying out the ordinary judicial process of canonization described above, the veneration as a saint, the "cultus", of someone long venerated as such locally. This action by a Pope is known as equipollent (or equivalent) canonization or "confirmation of cultus". According to the rules laid down by Pope Benedict XIV, there are three conditions for such a canonization: an ancient cultus, a general constant attestation by trustworthy historians to the virtues or martyrdom of the person, and an uninterrupted fame as a worker of miracles.
Pope Benedict XIV himself gave as examples the equipollent canonizations of the saints Romuald in 1595, Norbert in 1621, Bruno in 1623, Peter Nolasco in 1655, Raymond Nonnatus in 1681, Stephen of Hungary in 1686, Margaret of Scotland in 1691, John of Matha and Felix of Valois in 1694, Pope Gregory VII in 1728, Wenceslaus of Bohemia in 1729, and Gertrude of Helfta in 1738. Later equipollent canonizations include those of Peter Damian and Boniface in 1828, Cyril and Methodius in 1880, Ephrem the Syrian in 1920, Albert the Great in 1931, Margaret of Hungary in 1943, John of Ávila and Nikola Tavelić and his three companion martyrs in 1970, Marko Krizin, István Pongrácz and Melchior Grodziecki in 1995, and Hildegard of Bingen in 2012.
Pope Francis added Angela of Foligno and Peter Faber in 2013, and José de Anchieta, Marie of the Incarnation, and Francis-Xavier de Montmorency-Laval in 2014.[SUP][17][/SUP][SUP][18][/SUP][SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][20][/SUP]
It's called "Glorification" in the EOC (even though icons are venerated).

Glorification is the term used in the Eastern Orthodox Church for the official recognition of a person as a saint of the Church. The Glorification of saints, as in the Catholic Church, is considered to be an act of God, not a declaration of the hierarchy. The official recognition of saints grows from the consensus of the church.
When an individual who has been sanctified by the grace of the Holy Spirit falls asleep in the Lord, God may or may not choose to glorify the individual through the manifestation of miracles. If He does, the devotion to the saint will normally grow from the "grass roots" level. Eventually, as the Holy Spirit manifests more miracles, the devotion to the individual grows. At this point there are no formal prayers by the Church to the individual. Rather, memorial services (Greek: parastas, Russian: panikhida) are served at the grave of the individual, praying for him or her—though an individual may pray privately to someone who has not yet been formally Glorified, and even commission Icons, which may be kept in the home but not displayed in the Temple (church building).
Eventually, the evidence of their saintliness will have grown to such a degree that a formal Service of Glorification will be scheduled. A Glorification may be performed by any Bishop within his Diocese, though such services are usually performed under the auspices of a Synod of Bishops. Often there will be a formal investigation to be sure that the individual is Orthodox in their faith, has led a life worthy of emulation, and that the reports of miracles attributed to their intercessions are verifiable. The Glorification service does not "make" the individual a saint; rather, the Church is simply making a formal acknowledgement of what God has already manifested.

Sometimes, one of the signs of sanctification is the condition of the Relics of the Saint. Some saints will be incorrupt, meaning that their remains do not decay under conditions when they normally would (natural mummification is not the same as incorruption). Sometimes even when the flesh does decay the bones themselves will manifest signs of sanctity. They may be honey colored or give off a sweet aroma. Some relics will exude myrrh. The absence of such manifestations is not necessarily a sign that the person is not a Saint.
In some traditions, an individual who is being considered for Glorification will be referred to as "Blessed," though there is no formal service of "beatification" in the Orthodox Church. Some fully glorified saints are also referred to as "Blessed," such as a Holy Fool for Christ (for instance, "Blessed St. Xenia") or saints who have been given this particular appellation (such as, "Blessed Augustine", "Blessed Jerome", and others). In such cases the title "Blessed" is in no way intended to imply that they are less than fully saints of the Church.
The particulars of the Service of Glorification may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but normally it involves the formal inscribing of the individual's name into the Calendar of Saints (assigning a special day of the year on which their feast day is to be celebrated annually), the chanting of a service in honor of the Saint (normally using specially commissioned hymns which are chanted for the first time at the Glorification) and the unveiling of an Icon of the new Saint. Before the Glorification itself, there may be a special "Last Panikhida", a solemn Requiem at which, for the last time, the Church prays for the repose of their soul. After the Glorification, the Church will no longer serve a Panikhida for the repose of his soul, but instead a Paraklesis or Moleben will be served to implore their intercessions before the Throne of God.
Martyrs need no formal Glorification. The witness of their self-sacrifice is sufficient (provided their martyrdom was the result of their faith, and there being no evidence of un-Christian behaviour on their part at the time of their death). Not all saints are known, many will remain hidden by God until the Second Coming of Christ. For this reason, on the Sunday after Pentecost the Orthodox celebrate all the righteous souls together on All Saints Sunday. In some jurisdictions, the Sunday following All Saints Sunday will be a day of general commemoration of all saints (known and unknown) of the local church. For instance, All Saints of the Holy Mountain, All Saints of Russia, All Saints of America, etc.
St. Symeon the New Theologian writes: "The saints in each generation, joined to those who have gone before, and filled like them with light, become a golden chain, in which each saint is a separate link, united to the next by faith, works, and love. So in the One God they form a single chain which cannot quickly be broken."
 
IDK a lot about canonization yet, so take this with a grain of salt. WRT the Russian Church, I can't say because I'm not a member of the ROC (I'm Antiochian). "Venerable" is used in different ways in different contexts. Pastors at individual parishes, for example, can use "Venerable" in their title to indicate seniority/pastorhood. For example, "V. Rev. Fr. Seraphim Slovatski", where "V." means "venerable".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

It's called "Glorification" in the EOC (even though icons are venerated).

Where in the Bible does it say we should use acts of worship toward anything other than God?
 
Great questions. If your position is that a church must infallibly define what books are in the canon, how do you prove that your church is an infallible authority to begin with? There are other churches that infallibly define a canon and who declare that they are the true church, such as the Mormons.

So your questions are easily turned back on themselves and your utter circular "final authority".



This is the typical response from a Protestant, when they are confronted about their errors in Sola Scriptura and the various unaccounted for presuppositions they make by simply having a biblical canon, they will change the argument to proving the Church to be true. That's irrelevant to the discussion on the Bible's authority, and my evidence for the Church being authentic relies upon internal & external evidences so it's not "circular" by any means. But you have yet, probably for the 10th time now in this sub-forum, provided a solid response for why you have a Bible and which intra-biblical means do you ascertain the canon? Your Sola Scriptura heresy is not only anachronistic, ahistorial, antithetical to the Jewish religion of which the Apostles & Christ developed from, but it's hopelessly self-defeating. For about the 11th time now, how do you develop a biblical canon using external means for your final authority while still maintaining Sola Scriptura?
 
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Your list in parentheses is ridiculous. Laying on of hands was used on various occasions. There is no single unifying reason for them all. There are cases where it involved the transference of the Holy Spirit. There are other cases where it involved other things, having nothing at all to do with the transference of the Holy Spirit. And there are cases where the Holy Spirit entered people with no laying on of hands.

My point, which you keep with missing or ignoring erowe, is that the Biblical description of how the Apostles 'ordained', that is transfered the Holy Spirit, particularly for deacons, was to 'lay hands' on the initiate. Do you deny this? It is quite clearly described in Acts.

PS: it is ironic that you keep referring up to the Didache for authority. Tell me, do you consider all of the Didache as apostolic proofs, or just the parts you want to?
 
The list is long. But the great majority of the stories in it are fictional. In churches that have days dedicated to martyrs, many of those days are devoted to people who never existed, or who weren't even Christians, or whose stories are so embellished that there's no telling what's true or false. At least one feast day is devoted to someone who was just a character in a Christianized version of a legend that was originally about Buddha.

'The great majority of the stories in it are fictional'? Wow. By your authority? Do you have proof to say 'the vast majority' are fictional? For someone who loves to ask others for proof, you seem to like to make such grandiose speculations yourself out of thin air.
 
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[/COLOR]


This is the typical response from a Protestant, when they are confronted about their errors in Sola Scriptura and the various unaccounted for presuppositions they make by simply having a biblical canon, they will change the argument to proving the Church to be true. That's irrelevant to the discussion on the Bible's authority, and my evidence for the Church being authentic relies upon internal & external evidences so it's not "circular" by any means. But you have yet, probably for the 10th time now in this sub-forum, provided a solid response for why you have a Bible and which intra-biblical means do you ascertain the canon? Your Sola Scriptura heresy is not only anachronistic, ahistorial, antithetical to the Jewish religion of which the Apostles & Christ developed from, but it's hopelessly self-defeating. For about the 11th time now, how do you develop a biblical canon using external means for your final authority while still maintaining Sola Scriptura?

My view is antithetical to Jesus and Paul? What? What central authority did Jesus or Paul appeal to when determining what books to appeal to as Scripture?
 
I agree, this was the very point erowe was trying to make. The laying on of hands does not make one a "Bishop" as the EO/RCC defines it.

A former church we attended spent a whole day in fasting, prayer and laying on of hands before sending out two holy women who were called to help in a dangerous region.

The action of laying on of hands is for the whole church. IMHO.

I am only trying to describe what the Biblical description is for making one a deacon or presbyter in the NT. I am not mentioning any particular Church or limiting it to any particular Church in this dialogue so far. I am simply trying to understand how erowe ignores the biblical teachings and then using the extrabiblical source called the Didache (which I still maintain he is misinterpreting and which I am sure he will disagree with other things written in it though he is using it as an authority out of convenience and ignoring the rest (the typical way a reformed Protestant approaches both tradition and the scriptures)) and then he goes on to say that the ordination was done in 'various ways' and by laity, when he has zero definite proof to say this. He is introducing a change in the Apostolic tradition, and I wonder if he sees that or not. And if he doesn't, why doesn't the fact that he has no Patristic evidence to prove his point (that there were various ways, such as laity laying hands to ordain) not make him pause and think that perhaps he is wrong and not 2000 years of saints.
 
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My view is antithetical to Jesus and Paul? What?


Christ & Paul made frequent appeals to the Oral Torah, it was a necessity for Judaism at the time, and I would confidently argue that it was present in varying forms in most branches. Jesus would have had to accept a binding, authoritative, oral tradition that stemmed from Moses. How does one perform the Kosher Slaughter? Which calendar do you use? How did Jesus know and re-affirm the Pharisaic tradition that they had a legitimate heir to Moses's Seat? It was a world that had already accepted Oral Traditions as authoritative and the Word of God. Paul, likewise, identified as a Pharisee 20+ years after converting and still referenced Jewish tradition as authoritative. By rejecting this way of thinking and asserting some Sola Scriptura view you're way out of line with the original Jewish believers in Christ, it's simply an alien way of thinking.

What central authority did Jesus or Paul appeal to when determining what books to appeal to as Scripture?

Jesus & Paul defined a canon? That's news to me.
 
Your list in parentheses is ridiculous. Laying on of hands was used on various occasions. There is no single unifying reason for them all. There are cases where it involved the transference of the Holy Spirit. There are other cases where it involved other things, having nothing at all to do with the transference of the Holy Spirit. And there are cases where the Holy Spirit entered people with no laying on of hands.

Yes, I agree. The laying of the hands was done for other reasons then making one a member of the clergy. I understand that. For example the passage I listed above which describes how St. Peter and St. John layed their hands on the people in Samaria because they had not received yet the Holy Spirit, they had just been Baptized.

My confusion is where you are getting that there were other methods of making one a bishop then the way it was described in the Bible which is only described by laying of the hands. Are you putting extra biblical writings, namely the Didache, as more authoratative then the Book of Acts?
 
uh, I don't think so... I do know that Paul wrote 13 of the 27 chapters of the NT (KJV) the one that you referenced was one he wrote to a church while in jail...right?

I think the reformation had something to do with the "protestants" arguing with the Pope over who can, and who cannot talk with God.

there seems to be a lot of blending going on. are "Christians" and "Catholics" one and the same?
I am not trying to argue ANY point. I am literally just trying to understand the basics.
it seems the more that I learn and absorb, the more complicated and confusing it gets.
peace.

The definition of "Christian" really depends on who you ask. Ultimately (if the Christian worldview is true) there's a right answer, and I have my opinion, but if you're just trying to understand the debate I'll leave it at that.

No, "Christian" and "Catholic" don't mean the same thing. They are either two different religions, or Catholicism is a subset of Christianity, depending on who you ask.
 
What distinguishes canonized from not canonized saints? And what does the label "venerable" mean on that calendar from the Russian Church? Is venerable a title for someone not canonized?

The Church does not make a person a Saint. They merely proclaim what the person already is. Many (even most) of the Saints of the past 2000 years have been forgotten in this world by the average person, even when alive many were hardly known, living quiet, simple lives. Those that are 'canonized' by the Church are merely proclaimed as an example for others, as lives we in the Church should imitate, as a ruler (kanon)' we should measure our own lives against. And it is the people, the laity, who initiate this process, a true grassroots effort in the regular way in which this occurs. Because the Church officially pronounces a Feast Day in remebrance to them doesn't then make them holy or a saint. They were holy before this happened.

Now, knowing that these men were still men and as such have sinned, we do not memorialize them for any sins they had done, but for the great good they did, in either works of love. charity, or repentance.

Venerable describes one who many consider holy and to be a Saint yet has not officially been recognized as such. Again, this does not mean they are 'less' than one who has been 'canonized' a Saint, but rather that the Heirarchy for whatever reason (and their can be several) has yet to place their names in the list of those canonized. I hope this very rudimentary explanation is helpful.
 
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Your opinion. The Bible says the Saints studied the scriptures themselves to see if what the apostles said was the truth. That's the opposite of what fisharmor states he is doing.

No, I don't believe it is. Of course we should study the Scriptures like the Apostles did. We should also try to understand them in the light of Holy Tradition, just as they did. Just like St. Paul did and all the first century Jews did (except for the Saduccees who were the Solo Scripturist of their day)..

I see that you in your eagerness to "correct" me, you misinterpreted what I wrote. I was not listing John Calvin, Martin Luther, and John Wesley as church fathers. I was listing them in addition to the men YOU count as church fathers! So, in trying to "correct" me you denied the very apostolic succession you put so much stock in. Way to go TER! :) My point, that you missed, is that I think all of these men who put a lot of time into studying God's word are worth reading. But I put none of them in a position of scriptural authority. When I find writings that deviate from what's clearly in the Bible, I go with the Bible.

The problem is that what you might intepret in the Bible may be a false interpretation. There is a mechanism to see this and be corrected, and according to St. Paul, it is through the Church which is the bulwark and foundation for the truth.

And as for apostolic succession, their is not only apostolic succession through ordination (laying of the hands) which Calvin and Wesley did not have, but apostolic succession in teachings and understanding, what neither Calvin, Wesly, or Luther had. So, while they may some value as you say, they must be approached in that light. To me, I would rather read those who history and the Church have proclaimed to be apostolic both by grace and by their teachings being in conformity to the apostolic deposit of faith.

Of course saints are fallible. That's why at the end of the day one needs to go back to the source of truth which is God Himself. "If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives liberally and holds not back."

All saints are fallible, and some less than others.

:rolleyes: You keep acting like that's such a bad thing. It isn't.

I would strongly disagree with you, and the prayer of Christ in Gethsemane, the Acts of the Apostles described in the Bible, and the epistles for instructions in the NT would strongly counter your claim that it is 'not such a bad thing' for the churches to be divided in faith, worship and spirit.

Your own family of churches is not united either. The RCC church is significantly different from the Orthodox church. And there are multiple orthodox churches. The Ethiopian Orthodox church has a different cannon than the Greek Orthodox church.

This is a tragedy. Not a good thing.

So, who's "right"?

I believe it to be the EOC.

If you are born in the RCC church must you stay in the RCC church forever even if you like the Eastern Orthodox church better?

No. Many Catholics have joined the Orthodox Church.

If you leave the RCC for the EO, you are "rebelling" against "the church." (Which one?) And you have to use your "own interpretation" to decide which non Protestant church is the "true church." And even within the EO church there are differences so strong that one group will call the other group "heretics." No matter what church you put your "faith" in, at the end of the day you must know God and His word for yourself. And that's exactly what the Bible says.. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly divining the word of truth."

Many Christians fell away and became Arians in the third century. Many also fell away from Arianism and came back to the catholic Church. Both used the same Scriptures to prove their point. Why was one wrong and not the other?

Well good. It's interesting that I've seen Pope Francis say some off the wall things lately and whenever I point that out people slam me for it. Some of them aren't even Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. (I admit I do kind of agree with Pope Francis view of the Charlie Hebdo shootings, but his statements on capitalism are quite worrisome and his statements on atheism and homosexuality curious and slightly odd). I guess what I'm saying is, I see far more following by the laity than I see the laity holding the clergy's feet to the fire. But maybe that will change.

I think if you study the history of Christianity, you will find many instances of the laity holding the clergy's feet to the fire in both Catholisicm and Orthodoxy.

Well my Bible tells me to come "Boldly before the throne of grace" and that there is "One mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." Salvation comes through Christ. The purpose of the church is to connect the sinner to Christ and to encourage Christians to do good works. The idea that the church is the destination, as opposed to the vehicle to reach it, wasn't in the New Testament. Maybe it's in the writings of the church fathers.

St. Paul clearly says were at to be one Body. Our destination is tied in with the vehicle. The early Christians risked much to become members of this United Body through baptism and Chrismation. They often signed their death warrant in joining. And the destination is to be in this Body, united with the believers through Christ. It wasn't the mere vehicle, but the very eschatological destination of the Kingdom, even here in this world. We have a very different understanding of what the Church is and how our salvation is tied to it through Christ. You would do well instead of guessing what the Church Fathers write and actually read them. Then you could better understand this.


And the RCC Christians? Oh yeah, differences are only important to point out among the Protestants.

The major differences between Orthodoxy and Catholisicm is ecclesiological, not as much doctrinal (though they do exist, especially since ecclesiology and doctrinal theology are tied in together). The difference between Orthodox and Protestantism is much greater and much more profound.
 
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