Protestants and a Churchless Tradition: “Sola” vs. “Solo” Scriptura

[Ronin Truth]

And as we all now know, only too well, no one can ever buy a bishop. LMAO!

 

[TER]

And as we all now know, only too well, no one can ever buy a bishop. LMAO!

You are actually right on this one. Unfortunately, bishops sin. Some, horrificly. Thank the good Lord that most (especially those who have been memorialized and numbered amongst the saints on account of their extraordinarily holy lives) have been righteous servants of Christ and loving shepherds to the flock God has given them to feed.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't get how you can be a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox libertarian. The idea that individual Christians cannot interpret scripture on their own but need a centralized governing body to do it for them really seems inconsistent with libertarianism. And it definitely doesn't provide any kind of a theological grounding for libertarianism.

 

[Ronin Truth]

You are actually right on this one. Unfortunately, bishops sin. Some, horrificly. Thank the good Lord that most (especially those who have been memorialized and numbered amongst the saints on account of their extraordinarily holy lives) have been righteous servants of Christ and loving shepherds to the flock God has given them to feed.

Just like their beloved Savior and behavioral role model commanded and taught them. Right? <snicker!>

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..2.13.1860.VCHcNgmcDGQ

 

[TER]

Does the Spirit not still work in this world to correct error? If I touch a burner that is lit will it not burn me? If a person is earnest in their faith will they not heed the discipline of the Spirit? If they are not earnest in the faith does a governing authority matter?

I want to make clear to you Moostraks that I do not consider you a condemned person or a person who will not inherit the Kingdom. I will not say that an Orthodox Christian has more right over you to the Kingdom just on the basis of them being baptized into the Church. God's standards are not man's standards and only He knows the heart of a person to be able to judge them. I am perfectly comfortable believing that heterodox and those of even other religions might enter into the Kingdom on the Last Day. If that is the case, then glory to God! They are His children, not mine, and I will not be upset because someone has come in at the 11th hour while I have struggled from the first. Glory to God! How I wish all people and even the demons will be saved!

I will not do as many Calvinists do who speak of elect and nonelect, as if they have any clue who those people are. I fully understand that you have had your own experiences and your mind has been shaped by these experiences. I understand that much of your wisdom has occurred through circumstances beyond your control. If I can understand this and be able to empathize with you and grant you mercy, how much more will God?

My reasoning for proclaiming the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is not to discourage others, but to provide them hope that God has not abandoned us. That the Church described in the NT has survived against all odds. This is not to incite feelings of envy or pride or self-accusation, nor to accuse others' final destination, but to do what they Fathers of the Church have done before, as fallibly as I am. The apostolic truths have survived because of the Church, through the Holy Spirit working and guiding the Church. Through the Church's work in writing down the Scriptures, in defending the faith against pagan autocrats, in protecting the teachings against heretics. This process requires sweat, and blood, and above all the grace of God.

So my point in expressing the teachings of the Orthodox Church is to inform and those who accept it, then glory to God! May we share in the heavenly worship even here in this world! If they choose to not accept it, then glory to God! May He judge justly and according to His loving kindness.

 

[TER]

I don't get how you can be a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox libertarian. The idea that individual Christians cannot interpret scripture on their own but need a centralized governing body to do it for them really seems inconsistent with libertarianism. And it definitely doesn't provide any kind of a theological grounding for libertarianism.

I am not a libertarian. So, I don't see a problem.

 

[TER]

Just like their beloved Savior and behavioral role model commanded and taught them. Right? <snicker!>

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..2.13.1860.VCHcNgmcDGQ

Well, it really is a waste of time responding to you. You have never shown any semblance of being a person who is willing to learn. Seems like you think you already have it figured out. I don't think you do, but hey, I am just as fallible as you.

 

[moostraks]

Thank you moostraks. There is much I would like to say in response, but am at work right now and would like to spend more time to reply. But in the meanwhile, what do you mean by 'the governing agent'?

In respect to the church it would be church hierarchy, and immediately the likely culprit of offense is the agent closest to tutoring/mentoring the person who claims an error is occurring. I know you and I have a huge disagreement on this issue. I still love you and wish you all the best and am happy you have your spiritual home. One day I might find myself out of the desert as well, idk what the future might hold. I just know that for now, in this place of the path, this is where I am supposed to be.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I am not a libertarian. So, I don't see a problem.

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying it was a problem except that I don't really think Catholicism or EO goes that well with small government philosophy.

What are you politically?

 

[Ronin Truth]

[h=1]FREE IS BEAUTIFUL: Why Catholics should be libertarian [/h]

Free is Beautiful by Randy England uses the scriptures, the saints and the Catechism to show why Catholicism is essentially libertarian. Only through our free will can we become virtuous and share in the divine life, knowing, loving and serving God.

 

[TER]

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying it was a problem except that I don't really think Catholicism or EO goes that well with small government philosophy.

What are you politically?

Hmm, conservative, traditional. I am not an anarchist. The perfect model in my opinion is monarchism, but unfortunately in this world is too unpredictable. Works great when you have a just and righteous King. Works really bad when he is not. I like this democratically constitutional republic we have. Not perfect, but not bad. Seems to have done a lot of good. Unfortunately, I think the system is beyond corrupt at this point. As for big L libertarian, I am definitely not.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't get how you can be a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox libertarian. The idea that individual Christians cannot interpret scripture on their own but need a centralized governing body to do it for them really seems inconsistent with libertarianism. And it definitely doesn't provide any kind of a theological grounding for libertarianism.

It's actually very easy to be EO/RC libertarian. The "centralized governing body", as you call it, provides a consistent system of reason and ethics, whereas the protestant's system of reason/ethics can change on an arbitrary whim. It's the difference between a foundation of concrete and one of shifting sand. (notice how liberty in the US has only declined since the Revolution, despite non-Catholic/Orthodox being the consistent majority-and only one Catholic has been POTUS. Pretty important if you believe correlation=causation, as you imply in your post.)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Hmm, conservative, traditional. I am not an anarchist. The perfect model in my opinion is monarchism, but unfortunately in this world is too unpredictable. Works great when you have a just and righteous King. Works really bad when he is not. I like this democratically constitutional republic we have. Not perfect, but not bad. Seems to have done a lot of good. Unfortunately, I think the system is beyond corrupt at this point. As for big L libertarian, I am definitely not.

I'm going to have to disagree a bit. Monarchs have never been as destructive as republics/democracies have. Hoppe's arguments on the subject are very sound, IMO.

@FF-you should read "Democracy: The God That Failed".

 

[moostraks]

I want to make clear to you Moostraks that I do not consider you a condemned person or a person who will not inherit the Kingdom. I will not say that an Orthodox Christian has more right over you to the Kingdom just on the basis of them being baptized into the Church. God's standards are not man's standards and only He knows the heart of a person to be able to judge them. I am perfectly comfortable believing that heterodox and those of even other religions might enter into the Kingdom on the Last Day. If that is the case, then glory to God! They are His children, not mine, and I will not be upset because someone has come in at the 11th hour while I have struggled from the first. Glory to God! How I wish all people and even the demons will be saved!

I will not do as many Calvinists do who speak of elect and nonelect, as if they have any clue who those people are. I fully understand that you have had your own experiences and your mind has been shaped by these experiences. I understand that much of your wisdom has occurred through circumstances beyond your control. If I can understand this and be able to empathize with you and grant you mercy, how much more will God?

My reasoning for proclaiming the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is not to discourage others, but to provide them hope that God has not abandoned us. That the Church described in the NT has survived against all odds. This is not to incite feelings of envy or pride or self-accusation, nor to accuse others' final destination, but to do what they Fathers of the Church have done before, as fallibly as I am. The apostolic truths have survived because of the Church, through the Holy Spirit working and guiding the Church. Through the Church's work in writing down the Scriptures, in defending the faith against pagan autocrats, in protecting the teachings against heretics. This process requires sweat, and blood, and above all the grace of God.

So my point in expressing the teachings of the Orthodox Church is to inform and those who accept it, then glory to God! May we share in the heavenly worship even here in this world! If they choose to not accept it, then glory to God! May He judge justly and according to His loving kindness.

thank you my friend...

 

[TER]

I'm going to have to disagree a bit. Monarchs have never been as destructive as republics/democracies have. Hoppe's arguments on the subject are very sound, IMO.

@FF-you should read "Democracy: The God That Failed".

I honestly don't know much about political theory and such. I do know Orthodox Christians in pretty much every major political camp, from communist to libertarian.

 

[erowe1]

Except when it comes to interpreting Scripture, you must consider yourself quite adept considering you place your interpretation over those of the first century saints.

Can you quote me doing that?

 

[TER]

Can you quote me doing that?

Yes. Do I feel like doing so? No.

 

[erowe1]

Well, I think we have a misunderstanding of the Church. The laity depended on the interpretation of the Bishops, no?

No.

In fact, in the Church that Jesus built on the foundation of the apostles, bishops as you mean that label, monarchical bishops over entire cities, didn't even exist. And the hierarchy of the 5 patriarchates wouldn't develop for many centuries.

There was always a natural interdependence of all members of the body of Christ on one another, where each member would have his or her own role in service of the others depending on spiritual gifts, including teaching. The majority of believers for most of Church history were illiterate, and depended on those who were literate for the actual reading of scripture. But in apostolic Christianity, these roles were not limited to bishops/presbyters. And even to the degree that bishops/presbyters did have authority to counteract false teaching, this never entailed the authority to give a meaning to the text of scripture that it didn't already have.

 

[erowe1]

Yes. Do I feel like doing so? No.

You can't. I never have.

 

[TER]

You can't. I never have.

When is the first explicit mention of bishops mentioned?