Protestants and a Churchless Tradition: “Sola” vs. “Solo” Scriptura

I miss Eduardo too. That said dismissing something as a "nonstory" is a type of defense. In fact you said exactly what I would have expected Eduardo to say.
Eduardo would have whopped some butt. I, on the on the other hand, just simply dismissed it.

It is a non-story (and I would have said this about a Calvinist, SDA etc.) His statement in no way changed any policy of the Catholic Church and was mostly a politically ambivalent state (of which I'm NOT particularly a fan.) However again considering that it in no way changes the policy of the Roman Catholic Church (as with his economic statements) yet there are many denominations with bishops who are actively and openly homosexual and denominations endorsing gay marriage, it is a non-story.
 
Eduardo would have whopped some butt. I, on the on the other hand, just simply dismissed it.

It is a non-story (and I would have said this about a Calvinist, SDA etc.) His statement in no way changed any policy of the Catholic Church and was mostly a politically ambivalent state (of which I'm NOT particularly a fan.) However again considering that it in no way changes the policy of the Roman Catholic Church (as with his economic statements) yet there are many denominations with bishops who are actively and openly homosexual and denominations endorsing gay marriage, it is a non-story.

We can agree to disagree. Eduardo is not here, but there's not much "kicking butt" he could have done with that story. But you went further than say "It's a non story". You went along with a reinterpretation of what was said from "We value same sex orientation" to "love the sinner hate the sin." Since you brought up the popes economic statements, there is a big difference between saying "The popes anti free market statements did not change church policy" to saying "He was really saying we should end central banks."
 
We can agree to disagree. Eduardo is not here, but there's not much "kicking butt" he could have done with that story. But you went further than say "It's a non story". You went along with a reinterpretation of what was said from "We value same sex orientation" to "love the sinner hate the sin." Since you brought up the popes economic statements, there is a big difference between saying "The popes anti free market statements did not change church policy" to saying "He was really saying we should end central banks."

Maybe it's our two different perspectives. For years I've seen reports of Vatican III secretly occurring and initiating a bunch of off the wall changes only to be debunked in a day or two, or I'll see a report with cherry picked statements purposely out of contexts or purposely bad translations-- or Sola posting pure fabrications... This definitely colors my perception when I see stories like that.

I've also seen SDA fliers, brochures and books that state all kinds of odd things about the Pope and people who worship on Sunday in general... I'm sure that colors your perception as well.
 
below is a nice essay for those who are interested

Apocalypse and Tradition: The Source of Authority in Orthodoxy


October 2, 2014 by Gabe Martini
link HERE


authorityinthechurch.jpg



What is the ultimate source of authority in the Orthodox Church? This is a question that plagues inquirers of the faith and can even be a significant stumbling block to a person’s conversion.

For Protestants, the ultimate source of authority is the holy scriptures or the Bible. In this context, the Bible is often pitted against man made traditions or authorities—all of which must be subordinated to the authority of the Bible. This is known as Sola Scriptura, or “by scripture alone,” a principle borne from the spirit of Renaissance Humanism emancipating the individual from any external authority. While several churches of the Magisterial Reformation developed extensive, written catechisms and confessional standards, they were are all subject to the final authority of scripture.

These biases against the idea of tradition can even be seen in popular, modern translations of the scriptures. The single Greek word paradosis is translated as “tradition” when used with a negative connotation, and as “teaching” when positive. For example, paradosis becomes “tradition” when Christ derides the practices of the Pharisees, but is used as “teaching” in 1 Cor. 11:2 and 2 Thess. 2:15 (NLT) as well as 2 Thess. 3:6 (NIV).

And looking past its recent historical appearance—not to mention questionable, epistemic foundations—Sola Scriptura‘s core issue is that not everyone interprets the scriptures the same. And when two people disagree, who gets to determine the correct interpretation? How can we know they’re correct? This dilemma is not unique to our own age, but was considered by the Church as early as the fifth century.

For example, St. Vincent of Lérins writes:

[O]wing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. —Commonitory 2.5

What begins as an attempt to make the scriptures the central authority in the life of the Church results in a confusing mess. A mess that has led to the splintering of the Western church into hundreds, if not thousands of different churches or theological movements, each disagreeing over either minor or major understandings of scripture. But St. Vincent offers a solution:


Therefore, it is very necessary … that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation.​

For Orthodox Christians, the holy scriptures are not something wholly “other,” pitted against the traditions of the Church. Instead, the scriptures take their place as the heart of everything we call sacred or holy Tradition. Everything that encompasses Holy Tradition is the sole and only source of authority in the Orthodox Church. So what is Tradition?

From an Orthodox perspective, Tradition is the life of the holy Trinity in the life of the Church. It is an apostolic continuation of Christ, delivered first to the apostles and then handed down through history to their successors (paradosis):


For our faith, brethren, is not of men nor by man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, which the divine Apostles preached, the holy Ecumenical Councils confirmed, the greatest and wisest teachers of the world handed down in succession, and the shed blood of the holy martyrs ratified. Let us hold fast to the confession which we have received unadulterated from such men, turning away from every novelty as a suggestion of the devil. He that accepts a novelty reproaches with deficiency the preached Orthodox Faith. —Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs 20 (A.D. 1848)

St. Athanasius of Alexandria speaks of the “very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the very beginning, which the Logos gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers preserved. Upon this the Church is founded” (First Letter to Serapion 28). Holy Tradition is still preserved to this day in the Church by the Holy Spirit. It is not a thing of the past, but is a charismatic gift from all eternity, experienced in time in the life of the Church. Dr. George Bebis affirms:


Tradition, therefore, cannot be reduced to a mere enumeration of quotations from the Scriptures or from the Fathers. It is the fruit of the incarnation of the Word of God, His crucifixion and resurrection as well as His ascension, all of which took place in space and time. Tradition is an extension of the life of Christ into the life of the Church.

Tradition is a divine revelation—an apokalypsis or “apocalypse”—a removal of the veil that once separated both heaven and earth, the divine and the created. The purpose of holy Tradition, therefore—as a manifestation of the life-giving unity of the holy Trinity—is the (re-)union of mankind with the Father; the reversal of the curse of Eden.

The fulness of this holy Tradition is experienced in the “mystery of mysteries,” the holy Eucharist. The apostle Paul prefaces his instructions on this mystery as a tradition of the Church: “For I have received (parelavon) of the Lord that which I also delivered (paredoka) to you” (1 Cor. 11:23).

When speaking of Tradition, we are often speaking of theology. And what is theology? While theology literally means “the study of God,” for Orthodox Christians this is largely noetic and spiritual in nature. For example, Evagrius Ponticus has famously stated:


A theologian is he who prays truly; he who prays truly is a theologian.​

Theology in the Eastern tradition is more about knowing God than it is knowing about God. The fathers of the Church have warned throughout the centuries to flee from teachers who speak only of ideas or concepts, but are themselves separated from or opposed to the life of the Church. A theologian engaged in a life of prayer and asceticism can offer insights altogether hidden from those outside the Body of Christ, regardless of their academic credentials.

Theology in the primary sense (experiencing or becoming like God) is a prerequisite for theology in the secondary sense (information about or related to God). During the Great Feast of Pentecost, Orthodox Christians sing about the apostles being made into great teachers by the Holy Spirit—men who were once simple fisherman or even uneducated and illiterate. It was only by the Grace of the Holy Spirit—a divine encounter with God himself—that these men could so utterly transform into true teachers of the faith. And as the Gospel exhorts, a childlike faith is preferable to even the most astute and cunning wisdom this world has to offer.

When we do speak of ideas or concepts, all teaching must be tested against both the scriptures and broader traditions of the Church—not vice versa. In other words, new insights that contradict holy Tradition should be treated with immediate and unreserved skepticism on the part of faithful Orthodox Christians. This responsibility to protect and preserve the faith unaltered falls upon both clergy and laity alike. There is a delicate balance to be struck between a faithful, personal obedience to our fathers and clergy, and a healthy watchfulness that seeks to guard the faithful from both wolves and error. This is affirmed throughout the history of the Church.

All true theology is rooted in both Triadology and Christology—that is, the study of the holy Trinity and the study of Christ. This is demonstrated explicitly in the life of the Church, and particularly in the context of the Ecumenical Councils.

At this point, a Protestant might simply counter that interpreting tradition is no different than Sola Scriptura—left to each individual and their own best efforts. So how can faithful Christians discern between true and false theology? Is it really left to each individual to decide?

St. Vincent again offers some helpful insight. [Keep in mind, St. Vincent writes in the midst of the Nestorian controversy and the Third Ecumenical Council. Knowing that his context is the heresy and excommunication of a chief bishop in the Church helps underline the importance of preserving the Orthodox faith in every age, and no matter the circumstances.] He explains that we must prefer the beliefs of the “whole body” to the novelties of “one corrupt member.” And we do this by “clinging to antiquity.”

For St. Vincent, antiquity does not simply mean “older is better,” as the Church herself is timeless. Holy Tradition too is timeless, being a charism of the Spirit in the life and ministry of the Church. The antiquity of the Church is her teaching in the Ecumenical Councils. In their conciliar deliberations is the royal pathway of the fathers, the Truth as it has always been. The Tradition of the Church is no less present for us today than it was a thousand years ago, as it breathes and lives through each one of us constituting the theanthropic (divine-human) Body of Christ.

But what if an Ecumenical Council has not spoken on a particular doctrinal issue, or an area of great controversy afflicting the broader Church? It is in this context—and in this context alone—that St. Vincent offers his oft-quoted, but little-understood “canon”: to “hold fast to that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all”—to hold fast to the Catholic faith.

When speaking of the Catholic faith, this carries with it three primary implications (as explained by St. Vincent):

  1. Universality – The one, true faith as confessed and believed by the one, true Church throughout the world
  2. Antiquity – The one, true faith as explained throughout Church history by the recognized fathers and Saints of the Church
  3. Conciliarity – The one, true faith as defined and determined by all; that is, as defined and determined in holy and Ecumenical Councils

Outside of the Ecumenical Councils, faithful Christians can look to the fathers and the Saints, the hymns and liturgies of the Church, and all other “approved authorities,” as he puts it. In some of these areas there is less certainty and more room for discussion (depending on the issue, of course), but the overall boundaries (Greek horos) have been carefully laid by the fathers of the Ecumenical Councils, operating as they were under the divine guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

To conclude, I’d like to take a bit of a step back and examine what constitutes holy Tradition. Following fathers such as Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev), we can break down Tradition as consisting of seven, key areas—and by order of their authority in the life of the Church:[SUP]1[/SUP]

  1. The Holy Scriptures – First and foremost are the holy scriptures. For Orthodox Christians, this means the canon and text of the Old Testament as translated into Greek (commonly referred to as the Septuagint or LXX), along with the twenty-seven books of the New Testament. Both the canon and text of the Septuagint are important as they are so widely used and referenced throughout our divine services—and especially during Holy Week—and in the theological writings of our fathers and Saints. The same can be said for the Byzantine and now Patriarchal Text of the New Testament. As the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (1848) puts it: “Our Church holds the infallible and genuine deposit of the Holy Scriptures, of the Old Testament a true and perfect version, of the New the divine original itself.” Of secondary importance are other translations and editions of the scriptures as used in the life of the Church, such as Syriac, Latin, Arabic, Slavonic, and Hebrew.
  2. Liturgical Tradition – Of first importance would be the Divine Liturgies of Saints James, Basil, Chrysostom, and Gregory the Great, along with services accorded with time: Orthros, Vespers, Compline, the Midnight Office, etc., as well as the Octoechos (the book of “eight tones”), the Great Horologion (the “book of hours”), the monthly Menaion (the “Lives of the Saints”), the Festal Menaion, and the services of Holy Week.
  3. Ecumenical Councils and Creeds – There are seven Ecumenical Councils with universal recognition, culminating with the Second Council of Nicaea in A.D. 787. The most significant creedal “children” of these councils are the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of A.D. 381 and the Synodikon or anathemas of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Alongside these are other great councils—even of Ecumenical authority and scope—such as that under the administration of St. Photios the Great near the end of the ninth century (termed the Eighth Ecumenical Council by the aforementioned encyclical of 1848), and those in Constantinople dealing with the Barlaam-Palamas controversy. There are also Ecumenical statements—e.g. the reply to Pope Pius IX in 1848 by all of the Orthodox Patriarchs—that have authoritative weight in the history of the Church. In addition to this are a number of confessional and catechetical statements (though some are marred by their historical context, and therefore limited). The canons of the Ecumenical Councils are also extremely valuable as applied by our bishops. Some canons have a specific, historical application, and others are superseded by newer determinations, and so this complexity is best left to the bishops in each local church.
  4. Fathers of the Church – These are the Saints and fathers as commemorated, recognized, and honored in the liturgical life of the Orthodox Church. We look not only to their theological writings on the true faith, but also their lives and the examples of Christlike-ness they set. The fathers and Saints of the Church are not infallible, but they are, generally speaking, an indisputable source of both wisdom and piety in the long history of our faith.
  5. Other Ancient Teachers – These are various ecclesiastical writers and teachers not properly termed fathers or Saints who are still valuable in a number of ways. They are helpful in certain circumstances, influential in others, but are not held in a higher regard than the aforementioned authorities—they can, and often have, erred. Prime examples of this category of ecclesiastical teacher would be Origen of Alexandria, Tertullian of Carthage (prior to his apostasy), and Clement of Alexandria.
  6. Secondary Ancient Literature – This would include apocryphal and pseudepigraphal[SUP]2[/SUP] literature like the Protoevangelion of James, the books of Enoch, Jubilees, the Apocalypse of Baruch, and the Psalms of Solomon. While portions of these writings have been “canonized” by the liturgical life of the Church, this is not a blanket endorsement of their entirety. In other words, they are not now “a part of scripture.” Both discrection and care are needed to handle these writings properly and with edifying results.
  7. Miscellaneous Teachers of the Faith (both Ancient and Modern) – This includes essentially every other writer and teacher of the Orthodox Church, and particularly those not condemned (without repentance) in their lifetimes as a heretic or false teacher. While the insights of men like Alexander Schmemann, Georges Florovsky, and even Fyodor Dostoevsky might be both edifying and influential within portions of the Church, they should in no way be used to overrule the above authorities. To do so would be a clear abuse of the concept of authority in the Orthodox faith. All scholarly ruminations on the faith in the modern era fall squarely within this category.
 
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Rocco replies to article in OP (read comments in OP link)

October 8, 2014 at 9:19 am

As a 5 point (charismaticish) Calvinist, at a top evangelical seminary and member at a Reformed SBC church, who dealt with Mormons on a regular basis, I was committed to Sola Scriptura in the ilk described in this article. But as time went on 3 things occurred to me.

1. Though I claimed Scripture was my final and only infallible authority, most of that hinged on my definition of plenary inspiration of the autographs. But we didn’t have the autographs and all of the manuscripts had discrepancies (though most not of the doctrinal kind). So I had to trust that God used the Church somehow to infallibly preserve the original intent.

2. Though I claimed Scripture was my final and only infallible authority, I began to realize the only doctrines all the traditions I excepted as orthodox Christianity agreed on, were what had been defined by Nicea and Chalcedon. So even that which was fundamentally Christian God used the Church somehow to infallibly present his truth.

3. As a Reformed Baptist, I came to the realization that no matter how much I, and the Elders in my church quoted Augustine or Calvin, the fact was, they couldn’t be members in our church – nor could we in theirs. And it wasn’t just because of infant baptism. Especially Augustine. He had a completely different concept of the Church than I had. The (only) Church Father I quoted as proof for my beliefs and I, could not commune together. That stung me – especially as someone who’s main argument against Mormonism was that the Church was one throughout history. But practically, I didn’t really believe that did I? I was a functional restorationist just like them. And the more I read the Bible, the less I could see the “no one visible body can claim to be the one, true Church after the Apostles/Constantine/Schism (take your pick)” ecclesiology that my experience mandated I believe. For in the Bible, the experience, and the expectation for the future, is that the Church is One visibly because it shares one cup and one bread. That is to say, as Augustine and Gabe Martini pointed out, I saw that ontology preceded epistomology, even when it came to the Church.

So as you said Presbyter Andrew, what I was missing, was ecclesiology. I took the que from what Presbyter Peter Gilquist, of blessed memory, said concerning his journey to Orthodoxy, I stopped judging God’s history and let God’s history judge me. From there it wasn’t a matter of which church is true as if I stood outside fully equipped with all knowledge. As I saw it, the Orthodox Church was the Church that I both read about, and birthed, the Bible I so love. Therefore, if I was to be a faithful Christian at all, it meant to not simply believe the Church’s doctrine (as if ecclesiology isn’t part and parcel of the Church’s doctrine) but to humbly join it. That is to say, I joined the Orthodox Church because I am a Christian and Christians belong in/to the Church. All other issues, even the place and exegesis of the Holy Scriptures, are to be settled within the Church; not to use the Church’s book to establish or condone anything outside of it.
 
Why is adopting innovations that arose centuries after the apostles necessary in order to have the fulness of the Church?

And of all the innovative traditions that various Christians have come up with over the centuries, how does one determine which of those innovations are required for the fulness of the Church?

Doctrinal development isn't problematic, the kernels of the Church's Traditions have been present since the first century. Also, I would bet you're referencing the major traditions (Sacred Tradition as equal authority to Scripture, Sacred Relics, Apostolic succession, praying for the dead, etc..) all of these things are affirmed to have existed since the earliest forms of Christianity. It's absolutely non-controversial among Protestant academia, I would advise reading JND Kelly's "Early Christian Doctrines" or anything written by Schaff, Hurtado, NT Wright, & Wallace.

One Tradition that did come later, however, was the Biblical canon. Prior to the 4th century there was no consensus on the canon, with just about every father disagreeing with what scripture ought to be included and excluded. For the first several centuries it seems like the fathers didn't regard 2 Peter as canonical. But it's funny how Protestants never critique this important tradition, instead they also rely upon the "doctrinal development" way of thinking.
 
Doctrinal development isn't problematic, the kernels of the Church's Traditions have been present since the first century. Also, I would bet you're referencing the major traditions (Sacred Tradition as equal authority to Scripture, Sacred Relics, Apostolic succession, praying for the dead, etc..) all of these things are affirmed to have existed since the earliest forms of Christianity. It's absolutely non-controversial among Protestant academia, I would advise reading JND Kelly's "Early Christian Doctrines" or anything written by Schaff, Hurtado, NT Wright, & Wallace.

One Tradition that did come later, however, was the Biblical canon. Prior to the 4th century there was no consensus on the canon, with just about every father disagreeing with what scripture ought to be included and excluded. For the first several centuries it seems like the fathers didn't regard 2 Peter as canonical. But it's funny how Protestants never critique this important tradition, instead they also rely upon the "doctrinal development" way of thinking.

Where did the "early church" believe the assumption of Mary?
 
Where did the "early church" believe the assumption of Mary?

This is the typical Evangelical argument. Ah, the assumption of Mary didn't have widespread acceptance! Never mind the doctrines that did have widespread acceptance (Sacred Relics, Sacred Traditions, LXX canon for OT, prayers for the dead) and the doctrines that are essential to Protestantism but were developed later (i.e. the biblical canon). It shows how desperate one can become when trying to form a Protestant worldview. So where did the "early church" believe in the 66 books of the Bible? Explicitly in the first century, at that?
 
This is the typical Evangelical argument. Ah, the assumption of Mary didn't have widespread acceptance! Never mind the doctrines that did have widespread acceptance (Sacred Relics, Sacred Traditions, LXX canon for OT, prayers for the dead) and the doctrines that are essential to Protestantism but were developed later (i.e. the biblical canon). It shows how desperate one can become when trying to form a Protestant worldview. So where did the "early church" believe in the 66 books of the Bible? Explicitly in the first century, at that?

So, no answer. Why do you believe it? It doesn't come from the Bible, so where does it come from? Sola Ecclesia.
 
Where did the "early church" believe the assumption of Mary?

The same way St. Paul knew the rock which Moses struck with his staff and brought forth water followed Israel through the desert. Through Oral Tradition.
 
The same way St. Paul knew the rock which Moses struck with his staff and brought forth water followed Israel through the desert. Through Oral Tradition.

Where is the evidence of the oral tradition of the assumption of Mary in the early church?
 
So, no answer. Why do you believe it? It doesn't come from the Bible, so where does it come from? Sola Ecclesia.


Who on earth said it didn't come from the Bible? I think there's a substantial amount of evidence of it from the Bible. And "Sola Ecclesia" would only apply if one were to believe the Church alone as the final authority, whereas Catholics believe in a three-legged stool. So basically your man-made criteria is as follows:

A) Something is only sacred tradition if it's only found in the unanimous consensus of early Fathers
B) The real presence in the Eucharist, Sacred Tradition as a concept, Prayers for the dead, saintly intercession, etc.. were all unanimously believed by early Fathesr.
C) They are not valid tradition since they contradict my interpretation of the Bible
D) There was no agreed-upon version of the biblical canon until the late 4th century in Rome where Church authorities declared the canon and affirmed controversial works (2 Peter)
E) Therefore the Bible is an invalid tradition.

Anyway you look on it, your own worldview completely falls apart when trying to tackle Catholicism. Your criteria is jumping all over the place, changing rapidly with your arguments, either you honestly believe Sacred extrabiblical traditions needed to be widespread prominence in the early Church (i.e. they couldn't be a minority view) or you don't. Which is it? And how is the Biblical canon infallibly defined in your worldview? So far nothing you have said is convincing.
 
The early Church's mission was not centered on the Theotokos, it was on proclaiming that the Messiah had come and His Name is Jesus and He has risen from the dead. Only later did the Church have the freedom and luxury to express the oral traditions of the Mother of God.
 
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can someone toss me a bone here please?

can I assume, that the "reformation" happened after the deformation?
are all groups here referencing the KJV ?

thank you. I am trying to follow the discourse.
 
can someone toss me a bone here please?

can I assume, that the "reformation" happened after the deformation?
are all groups here referencing the KJV ?

thank you. I am trying to follow the discourse.

If you are asking about the rock following Moses, it is in 1 Cor 10:4. This is not mentioned in the OT but was the oral rabbinical tradition from which St. Paul drew from. In accordance to the Pharisiacal tradition (which was the approved tradition of Scriptural interpretation according to Christ (Matthew 23:2-3)), the Oral Torah was as authoritative as the Written Torah.
 
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The Rock following Moses was an important Christophany in Paul's writings. But the "following" aspect of the story is purely extrabiblical. Paul makes frequent use of Jewish oral tradition, Jannes & Jambres are another prominent example. He even goes as far as calling himself a "father" to his students similar to the old Pharisaic tradition of calling their Rabbi father. Paul identified as a Pharisee 20+ years after his conversion, and it was intrinsic to Pharisiac Judaism to have an Oral Torah on equal authority to the sacred scriptures. Once again, Catholicism & Orthodoxy are totally in-line with first century Judaism whereas Protestantism is the odd-man out, making it up and re-imagining the culture as he pleases.
 
Who on earth said it didn't come from the Bible? I think there's a substantial amount of evidence of it from the Bible. And "Sola Ecclesia" would only apply if one were to believe the Church alone as the final authority, whereas Catholics believe in a three-legged stool. So basically your man-made criteria is as follows:

A) Something is only sacred tradition if it's only found in the unanimous consensus of early Fathers
B) The real presence in the Eucharist, Sacred Tradition as a concept, Prayers for the dead, saintly intercession, etc.. were all unanimously believed by early Fathesr.
C) They are not valid tradition since they contradict my interpretation of the Bible
D) There was no agreed-upon version of the biblical canon until the late 4th century in Rome where Church authorities declared the canon and affirmed controversial works (2 Peter)
E) Therefore the Bible is an invalid tradition.

The three-legged stool makes no sense when Rome infallibly defines doctrines. That's not a three-legged stool, it's church alone. There doesn't have to be an "agreed upon" canon by a church for the people of God to know what the Word of God is. The church does not define the canon. It merely discovers it, and yes, that did not have to happen in the first century.
 
If you are asking about the rock following Moses, it is in 1 Cor 10:4. This is not mentioned in the OT but was the oral rabbinical tradition from which St. Paul drew from. In accordance to the Pharisiacal tradition (which was the approved tradition of Scriptural interpretation according to Christ (Matthew 23:2-3)), the Oral Torah was as authoritative as the Written Torah.

uh, I don't think so... I do know that Paul wrote 13 of the 27 chapters of the NT (KJV) the one that you referenced was one he wrote to a church while in jail...right?

I think the reformation had something to do with the "protestants" arguing with the Pope over who can, and who cannot talk with God.

there seems to be a lot of blending going on. are "Christians" and "Catholics" one and the same?
I am not trying to argue ANY point. I am literally just trying to understand the basics.
it seems the more that I learn and absorb, the more complicated and confusing it gets.
peace.
 
2nd Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Do you think it is a good work to pray to Mary? Do you think it is a good work to believe and teach that Mary was bodily assumed? Do you think it is a good work to believe and teach that the pope is infallible?

Of course you do. But the Scriptures no where teach these things. So how can the man of God be thoroughly equipped for these tasks if the Bible doesn't equip Him? Paul said that the Scriptures themselves were sufficient to equip a man for EVERY good work.
 
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