there were enough guns.
bullshit. they were confiscated.
there were enough guns.
I have no idea what the outcome would have been, but they would have had a free man's fighting chance. And I find your slander of the jewish race completely out of line, hopefully the mods feel the same.well ... i understand that you us american übermenschen would have kicked the nazis asses. unlike the jewish fags who just let the holocaust happen.
well ... i understand that you us american übermenschen would have kicked the nazis asses. unlike the jewish fags who just let the holocaust happen.
bullshit. there are plenty of stories were jewish people had guns in their homes.bullshit. they were confiscated.
you said that they didn't behave like you americans would have done. not me.I have no idea what the outcome would have been, but they would have had a free man's fighting chance. And I find your slander of the jewish race completely out of line, hopefully the mods feel the same.
Putting words in my mouth sir, I said no such thing.you said that they didn't behave like you americans would have done. not me.
it's you crazy people who are comming up with that bullshit. not me.
it's you who are instrumentalizing the holocaust for your weird and absurd world view, not me.
you disgusting person will go on with this absurd claim that the jews could have prevented the holocaust if they would have had enough guns?
do you have no decency in your body?
do you ever think before making such absurd statements?
england, france, poland and the rest of europe combined couldn't stop the nazis. but a bunch of armed jews in german cities would have stopped the ss from coming after them.
i can see sigmund freud and arnold schönberg fighting the sa with their rifles. just like you rednecks would have done it, ey?
bullshit. there are plenty of stories were jewish people had guns in their homes.
but of course they wouldn't have used them against a gang of nazis standing in front of their doors.
that would not only have ment imminent suicide. but death for the rest of the family as well.
probably even torture.
but i guess those jewish people back then were a bit too smart for those kind of mindless shooting.
ProIndividual said:Mass murder shootings happen 20 times a year in the USA on average...but that is less than 2% of all gun murders. It isn't the big threat in terms of annual gun murders. It is also one of the least preventable causes (because crazy people use cars, knives, rope, fire, fists, bombs, etc., to murder people). So what are the causes of the vast majority of gun murders (which would matter to those interested in actually reducing gun murder)?
Some wish to have gun control and gun bans in the wake of our last few mass shooting tragedies.
At what cost? Childproof society because a SMALL number (per capita) abuse the right? There are 200,000,000 guns in the USA, and 40-60 million people own those guns. Until this last year, which the FBI will have no official stats for until 2 years from now BTW, the crime rates, including violent crime and gun crime, had been falling for 30-50 years (moreso in the last 30). And this year there was only a slight uptick (several years into a recession no less, where people turn to drug "crime" for supplemental income). The population growth and guns in circulation, not to mention legal permits to carry guns, over that 30 years has far outpaced the gun murder growth. So even though the total gun murders probably went up this year, we still have a declining rate overall in the last 3 decades. I'll overestimate and say we had 13,000 gun murders, and do a little math for you.
Let's say the 40-60 million gun owners are 50 million owners...right in the middle (the average estimate).
200 million guns / 50 million = 4 guns per owner on average.
200 million guns / 13,000 gun murders = 15,384.62 guns per murder (that's a lot of guns not killing people)
Percentage chance a gun in the USA will murder = .0065% (or 6.5 in every 1000 guns...that's 993.5 guns in every 1000 guns not murdering people)
50 million gun owners / 13,000 gun murders = 3,846.15 gun owners not murdering for every 1 gun murder (that's a lot of gun owners not murdering anyone)
Percentage chance a gun owner will murder with a gun = .026% (or 26 in every 1,000...that's 974 gun owners in every 1,000 not murdering anyone)
315,000,000 American people / 13,000 gun murders = 24,230.77 Americans per 1 gun murder victim
Percentage chance you as an American will be murdered by a gun = .0041% (that's 4.1 in every 1,000...or a tiny threat for the mathematically challenged. You have a better chance at dying of the flu - 33,000 flu deaths per year in the USA)
Permits to carry guns and total guns in circulation in the USA has never been higher (which is not the same as ownership rate, which is actually down)...and yet the threat is very, very low. Still think all those other people should give up their rights for a threat less than the flu? Please recall that almost 70% of gun murders are commited by criminals, not law abiding citizens. No gun ban or gun control logically affects them, as they already don't abide laws, and we aren't on an island where getting guns is hard when they are banned (it's easier in say England or Australia, because of geography, to ban guns).
Now let's compare to the Holy Grail of gun control advocates (Canada and England) who value freedom so low as to want "to purchase temporary safety at the expense of liberty", as Ben Franklin put it (he said you will "get neither" when you do that, and I'll add "you deserve neither"). BTW, I'd point out Canada didn't outlaw guns at all in reality :
Canada's population 35.5 million / 126 gun murders = 281,746 citizens per gun murder
Percentage chance of being murdered by a gun as a Canadian = .0004% (4 in every 10,000)
Gun owners in Canada is 10.934 million / 126 gun murders = 86,777.78 gun owners per gun murder
Percentage chance a gun owner in Canada murders you with a gun = .0012% (1.2 in every 1,000)
Now let's look at England's gun ban paradise:
England's population 53 million / 39 gun murders = 1,358,974 citizens per gun murder
Percentage chance of being murdered by a gun in England = .0001% (or 1 in 10,000)
Gun owners in England 1.8 million / 39 gun murders = 46,153.85 gun owners per 1 murder by gun
Percentage chance a English gun owner murders you with a gun = .0022% (2.2 in every 1,000)
I'd point out gun CRIMES (not just murders) in England have soared upward 35% since the gun bans. Criminals used handguns in 46% more crimes, and it was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise...there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year, the most since the previous peak in 1993.
Stats show the number of crimes involving handguns have more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre, which brought about the ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.
Unadjusted figures showed overall recorded crime in the 12 months to last September rose 9.3%, but the Home Office stressed that new procedures had skewed the figures.
Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "These figures are truly terrible.
"Despite the street crime initiative, robbery is massively up. So are gun-related crimes, domestic burglary, retail burglary, and drug offenses.
"The only word for this is failure: the Government's response of knee-jerk reactions, gimmicks and initiatives is not working and confused signals on sentences for burglary will not help either."
So England's gun bans may have lowered total murders, and even the rate of murders, but the violent crime rates are soaring. Guns are a game theory mathematical deterent to crime, especially violent crime, believe it or not.
So what can we get from all these stats?
Population matters, as does other factors besides guns themselves:
The whole story is told in the percentage chance a gun owner will murder with a gun - USA is .026%, Canada is .0012%, and England's is .0022%.
As you can see, Canada has a higher rate of ownership of guns and more total guns than England, and yet has a LOWER gun owner murder rate than England! That means it isn't guns that are the factor making England murder more. So why is Canada so low, while England is nearly double that? Why is the USA more than 10 times higher than England? All of this is adjusted for population and total guns in society...so what is the factor making us so much more prone to murder (even if it is a tiny threat overall to life) here in the USA?
THE DRUG WAR.
In England they have a drug war, but they do not focus on possession. Meanwhile we lock up nonviolent criminals at the almost the exact same rate as violent ones in America. Canada has legal marijuana in some areas, and has for years, and takes a very relaxed attitude toward drug use in general (although they have laws which are largely unenforced).
Just like during the Prohibition of alcohol, murder rates have soared under the Drug War. So has our incarcerations and incarceration rates...we now lock up more people in total than any other country in the world (yes, even the vastly more populated China and India)! That's total and per capita! "Land of the Free"? Think again. "Land of the prisoner" is more accurate. We arrested more than 750,000 people last year for just marijuana! 86% of those arrests were for small amounts; simple possession charges. It's not only tyrannical, it's a waste of resources which fuels a black market run by criminal sociopaths, and takes resources away from fighting actual violent crime like theft, property damage, assault, rape, child abuse, and murder.
This War on Drugs (and personal adult freedom) has given us the street gang phenomenon on the scales we see today. Chicago alone has dozens of separate drug gangs. They also have a high murder rate to go along with super-strict gun control in comparison to other cities...because guns aren't the problem, the Drug War is. Many of their gangs can trace their roots to either the beginning of Prohibition, or the beginning of the modern Drug War.
In Honduras where gun murders are most common and horribly frequent, they have gun rights...but they also have a country which is a main thoroughfaire for the illegal drug trade. By comparison, Uruguay has almost the same gun ownership rates as the USA and the same gun rights as well, yet they have a lower gun murder rate because they have no war on drugs. In fact, their govt is seriously considering selling marijuana to its citizens to get the drug trade completely above-board!
If you want our rate of murder to decrease via guns you don't take away guns, you end the Drug War. If you have any doubts about this go look at the murder rates after alcohol Prohibition began, and then after it ended. Also look at countries that have already ended their Drug Wars.
Crime rates in Prohibition rose immediately 78%, 24% in just one year from 1920-1921 (the first year)
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00492/Crime_Rate.htm
The murder rate was cut in nearly half (40% decline), from 10 per 100,000 to 6 per 100,000 when Prohibition ended. This was directly caused by the repeal of Prohibition in 1933.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/alcohol-prohibition-was-failure
If we want to half our gun murders, legalize drugs. If you want to further bring it down address the next major cause; domestic violence. Spanking children leads to many issues surrounding violence, but especially domestic violence. If domestic violence is how you raise children, then expect them to use it themselves as adults. A small number of those people will kill a domestic relative or partner. The gun simply facilitates it.
The final point I'll make is that if only .026% of gun owners murder someone with a gun, then 99.974% of gun owners don't kill someone with a gun. It's hard to argue we need to punish the 99.974% for what the .026% do. That kind of illogic is used in schools to punish classrooms full of kids for what one anonymous child has done...and it leads to bullying, because children then ostracize their peers who are guilty (and they don't know how to ostracize responsibly, so it ends up in bullying). We should use a more logical approach on adults. In a nation of 315 million people, with a Drug War raging and domestic violence against kids being the norm, a 99.974% responsible gun owner rate is unbelievably good. Perspective, instead of irrational fear and knee-jerk reaction, is what helps here.
ADDED:
Someone said they thought we could half gun murder by ending the drug war, but the we'd double the drunk/drugged driving deaths...but that is illogical. No one has any problem getting drugs now, and they already drive on them now. Also, when drugs were legalized across the board in other nations the usage only went up slightly, and in some nations actually decreased. Plus, when we re-legalized alcohol the usage here only went up slightly, while alcoholism went down (especially among minors), and the murder rate fell in that first year (1933) 40%. THINK through why your criticisms might not be logical...and Bing or Google them to see people have already answered these illogical and/or irrational reservations.
Lastly, someone else said they would never change their mind about being anti-gun no matter the evidence...but again, that is irrational. There are irrational people who won't fly even though they ADMIT cars are more likely to kill them. They drive but won't fly...that is irrational. Guns are less likely to kill a kid than swimming pools. How afraid are you of swimming pools? Cars kill more people than guns...how afraid are you of cars? Gun murder is almost 3 times less likely to kill you than the normal flu virus...how afraid are you of guns vs the flu? Being rational means fearing things based on thr actual RATIONAL chance they have to kill you, not the IRRATIONAL fear of HOW it might kill you. Guns are not nearly as dangerous as the media and most anti-gun people think they are.
In fact, more lives are saved in the USA every year than are taken by guns every year. They are in reality, indisputably, a NET GAIN of life. If only 2% of the 750,000 crimes prevented by private guns (FBI stat) save one life (or 1% saves 2 lives, etc.), then more lives are saved than taken. BTW...sutdies show many more than that are saved by guns...the estimate by Clinton Administration study was 2 million lives per year...which might be high...and other more intensive studies show the number to be in the tens of thousands, up to 200,000, per year. But EVEN IF the number was only 15,000 as I suggested with my 2% number, we're still looking at more lives saved than murdered.
FURTHER ADDED:
A study done by the Harvard Jounal of Law and Public Policy reports some interesting statistics.
The study, which appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.
The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:
If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)
www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
STILL FURTHER ADDED:
It appears there is also NO correlation between single parenthood, violent video games, movies, TV shows, music, one religion or another (or lack thereof), etc.
Like guns, those are just NOT causal to high gun murder rates, despite the illogic used to say they are. (To be clear, it is intuitive to think guns and these other things cause the problem...but there is NO factual basis for it, and the factual nature of things is often deductively logical, and counter-intuitive.)
what the f....Vienna, using terms like that will not be tolerated here. People are free to disagree as long as they can do so without personal attacks, racist drivel and ad hominems. If you have a conflicting viewpoint or evidence to present than please do so without attacking entire races, cultures and nationalities.
you are all completely batshit crazy.you're missing the point. The 2nd Amendment was put in place to prevent what happened in NAZI germany, to having it happen to this new country, and the founders in their infinite wisdom from reading about history in europe and ancient writings of tyranny saw fit to assert this natural right of self defense...geez...really..you don't get it do you?...sad for you.
Hey, do you have a gun free zone sign on your house?
what the f....
you let it happen that people are missusing the holocaust for their weird and fact free world view.
you let it happen that people calling the jews indirectly cowards because they were trying to defend their families and didn't shoot at the nazis when they were standing in front of their doors and you are accusing me of racism?
what'S wrong with you people?
you are all completely batshit crazy.
that's the last word i'll write here. to the mods: please delete my account.
i want nothing to do with you people. you disgust me.
You'll be back, they always are.you are all completely batshit crazy.
that's the last word i'll write here. please delete my account.
i want nothing to do with you people. you disgust me.