On Capitalist Jesus. The Evil of Christianity.

[idiom]

Someone was trying to show Jesus was basically a Randian Capitalist.
I am proving, by the text of the gospels, that Jesus was no Ayn Rand.
He, in fact, was promoting something beyond the Ceasarian governments of this world... a family like communal (after)world.
Heavenly boy likes to pull one verse out and act like it is the totality of chirst teachings.
I say- let's put out the entire gospels, line by line- and highlight those parts that highlighted christ perspective on people's relationship's to each other and to god.
i can't do the whole thing tonight.
i did the first 9 chapters of mark. please read those- and add real counter arguments with verses to show how jesus wasn't advocating a communal existence among god's family.

Persons who misinterpreted Jesus teachings the way you do ended up getting people killed in the Early Church.

 

[Jeremy]

Someone was trying to show Jesus was basically a Randian Capitalist.
I am proving, by the text of the gospels, that Jesus was no Ayn Rand.
He, in fact, was promoting something beyond the Ceasarian governments of this world... a family like communal (after)world.
Heavenly boy likes to pull one verse out and act like it is the totality of chirst teachings.
I say- let's put out the entire gospels, line by line- and highlight those parts that highlighted christ perspective on people's relationship's to each other and to god.
i can't do the whole thing tonight.
i did the first 9 chapters of mark. please read those- and add real counter arguments with verses to show how jesus wasn't advocating a communal existence among god's family.

I don't think Jesus was trying to create any sort of economic system :o

 

[torchbearer]

I have lived in them. And they require a belief in capitalism or they fail.



At several points Jesus instructed people specifically to trade with money rather than Barter. The matthew 10 quote was to persons specifically appointed as missionaries to trust their provision to others.

either start pulling out matthew's gospel, or wait until i get there.
i don't recall jesus asking for a gold standard.

 

[torchbearer]

I don't think Jesus was trying to create any sort of economic system :o

just like your family doesn't charge each other for stuff they take out the fridge.

 

[idiom]

either start pulling out matthew's gospel, or wait until i get there.
i don't recall jesus asking for a gold standard.

There already was one.

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave 400 pounds of gold, to another 160, and to another 80; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the 400 pounds of gold went and traded with the same, and made them other 400 pounds of gold.
17And likewise he that had received 160, he also gained other 160.
18But he that had received 80 went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received 400 pounds of gold came and brought other 400 pounds of gold , saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me 400 pounds of gold: behold, I have gained beside them 400 pounds of gold more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received 160 pounds of gold came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me 160 pounds of gold: behold, I have gained 160 other pounds of gold beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the 80 pounds of gold came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy 80 pounds of gold in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the 80 pounds of gold from him, and give it unto him which hath 800 pounds of gold.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This translation is older than Adam Smith. And its probably a metaphor.

Odd metaphor to use for someone who doesn't believe in capitalism, or gold.

 

[torchbearer]

Persons who misinterpreted Jesus teachings the way you do ended up getting people killed in the Early Church.

people in the early church were closer to the teaching of jesus than people who are following the translations of the translations of their preacher who is a capitalist.
early christians were persecuted because they didn't support the state or its official religion. sound familiar?

 

[torchbearer]

There already was one.

and he said, give to ceaser, what is ceasers.
he didn't say, protest his tax, because it is yours.

 

[idiom]

just like your family doesn't charge each other for stuff they take out the fridge.

You seem to totally misunderstand communal living. Go live in a monastery for a bit.

Its about Love not property. The system is capitalism but the relationships are of Love. Jesus never asked anyone to build a system of institutionalised love. Everyone who has done so has caused wretched misery. Even sections of the Early Church made that misinterpretation.

 

[torchbearer]

You seem to totally misunderstand communal living. Go live in a monastery for a bit.

Its about Love not property. The system is capitalism but the relationships are of Love. Jesus never asked anyone to build a system of institutionalised love. Everyone who has done so has caused wretched misery. Even sections of the Early Church made that misinterpretation.

monasteries are communal. each person has a job, cleaning, planting, etc.
each according to his ability- and to each according to his needs.
you are not denied a meal if can't pay for it.
you are mistaken.
i'm not just some guy on the internet, i'm a sociologist who specialized in communities. we studied these groups.
you are mistaken. not me.
and not one of you have taken on the text i have bolded, just argued what the definition of "is" is.

 

[idiom]

monasteries are communal. each person has a job, cleaning, planting, etc.
each according to his ability- and to each according to his needs.
you are not denied a meal if can't pay for it.
you are mistaken.
i'm not just some guy on the internet, i'm a sociologist who specialized in communities. we studied these groups.
you are mistaken. not me.
and not one of you have taken on the text i have bolded, just argued what the definition of "is" is.

Reading books is quite different to living in one. You also seem to misunderstand capitalism. It is not about the pursit of wealth, or about charging the maximum possible in any exchange.

If you went to a monastery and demanded food they would do their level best to feed you, but not because you have a right to their food.

I did mention the text you bolded, and I bolded some of my own to.

 

[torchbearer]

Reading books is quite different to living in one. You also seem to misunderstand capitalism. It is not about the pursit of wealth, or about charging the maximum possible in any exchange.

we didn't read books, we studied groups.
Dr. Roland Pippin is known for his study of gypsies.
We didn't stay in classrooms, and you are avoiding the text of the gospels. (whatever version you want)
A family isn't structured on capitalism. It is communal.
I don't charge my child- I don't send him a bill at the end of the month for what he eats.
He is my family.
And in Jesus' teachings, he refers to each of us as family.
When you put a band-aid on your childs leg, he doesn't get a medical bill.
In the same sense, Jesus wouldn't charge someone to be healed.
It is a completely different concept, and one that only makes sense if you really believe we all came from the same "father", and that we are only living to make our way to "his" kingdom.

 

[Bossobass]

If you are to follow christ, you are to give up your material wealth.
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven.
Jesus didn't go around erecting large temples to himself, he lived the life of a servant.
To walk his path, is to walk it as a servant to others.

Early christian colonies were completely communal.

I'll respectfully disagree.

There's nothing spiritually wrong with material wealth, nor did Jesus ever say that there is.

Why did the Roman soldiers cast lots over Jesus' clothing?

Now when the soldiers had impaled Jesus, they took his outer garments and made four parts, for each soldier a part, and the inner garment. But the inner garment was without a seam, being woven from the top throuout its length.

Therefore they said to one another: "Let us not tear it, but let us determine by lots over it whose it will be."

IOW, Jesus wore the finest clothing money could buy, valuable to the point that the soldiers cast lots to see who would get the inner garment.

When Jesus told the man who asked what he had to do to receive eternal life to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor and follow him, he wasn't saying that possessions will preclude one from attaining everlasting life.

Jesus looked upon him and felt love for him and said to him: "One thing is missing about you: Go, sell what things you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasures in heaven, and come be my follower."

But he grew sad at the saying and went off grieved, for he was holding many possessions.

Jesus could read his heart. He knew the man was unbalanced in his view of material possessions and made the statement to aim directly at the point, in this particular man's specific case.

Jesus outlined many times what is required, but never said that if every requirement wasn't met it would mean your exclusion from eternal life. In fact, he said the opposite:

Mark 3:28:

"Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."

Paul backs this up by saying: "...and I have hope toward God, which hope these men also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous."

Having money and possessions is not an unforgivable sin. It isn't even a sin in and of itself. It's the love of money that is the root of all sorts of sinful things.

So, possessions are for one to look into his or her own heart to determine if they are in context in their own life. The only unforgivable sin is one against the holy spirit, which was in evidence in Jesus' acts during his ministry. Every other sin will be forgiven. Jesus only reacted to the man's question by hitting home with the man himself and to teach all who read the example.

It wasn't a decree that every person must obey and there are countless examples in the Bible that show there is nothing wrong with having money or the things it can be traded for.

Bosso

 

[idiom]

we didn't read books, we studied groups.
Dr. Roland Pippin is known for his study of gypsies.
We didn't stay in classrooms, and you are avoiding the text of the gospels. (whatever version you want)
A family isn't structured on capitalism. It is communal.
I don't charge my child- I don't send him a bill at the end of the month for what he eats.
He is my family.
And in Jesus' teachings, he refers to each of us as family.
When you put a band-aid on your childs leg, he doesn't get a medical bill.
In the same sense, Jesus wouldn't charge someone to be healed.
It is a completely different concept, and one that only makes sense if you really believe we all came from the same "father", and that we are only living to make our way to "his" kingdom.

And you never get the medical bills, you never get food bills. Well actually you do, you just absorb the cost and not pass it onto your child.

Now do you not pass it on because an economic textbook tells you not to pass it on? Or do you opertate that way becasue you love your child?

 

[torchbearer]

Bosso- to do this orderly, start with mark ch. 1-9, and then we will go from there.
if it helps you sleep better at night, jesus agrees 100% with everything you believe... because well, that is what all christian's believe regardless of how different their doctrines are.
it takes someone who isn't beholden to such things for his world to make sense to see the truth as it is written.
thus- take on what i've laid out already- and we will continue 9 chapters a night until you deny the very words you live by.

 

[torchbearer]

And you never get the medical bills, you never get food bills. Well actually you do, you just absorb the cost and not pass it onto your child.

Now do you not pass it on because an economic textbook tells you not to pass it on? Or do you opertate that way becasue you love your child?

Do you treat each person on this earth as your family or as a consumer?
oops.
damn.
sorry.

 

[idiom]

Do you treat each person on this earth as your family or as a consumer?

Both. There is no conflict.

oops.
damn.
sorry.

Please elaborate this. What are you trying to say?

 

[torchbearer]

tomorrow, if i have time, i will do mark 10-18.
if anyone has questions/comments on 1-9, please post them.

all others- everything is fine. please continue with program as usual.

 

[Brassmouth]

Communists still use money so that argument is invalid also.

Wrong. You know nothing of communist doctrine.

The Bible is the largest selling book in the history of this planet, by billions and billions. It is acknowledged as the greatest book of all times due to its antiquity, its total circulation, the number of languages into which it has been translated, its surpassing greatness as a literary masterpiece and because of its overwhelming importance to all mankind.

Fallacy of popular opinion?

I highly recommend reading it, especially before telling others what its contents are and what they mean.

Me too. Getting people to read the Bible cover to cover is the most efficient way of promoting atheism.

The Bible is the greatest libertarian manifesto ever written; it is even anarchist in some sections.

Whatever keeps your little fantasy alive, man....

You cant talk logic with someone that believes that logic is not a gift from God.

You can't "talk logic" with someone unless that person agrees that "logic" stems from an invisible man in the sky, without a shred of evidence to support that claim? Sounds pretty illogical to me... *facepalm*

I didn't write the OP, just posted to spur discussion. Sometimes is positive, sometimes it isn't. Thanks for the personal attacks though. This forum is showing it's herd mentality more and more on a daily basis.

QFT.


Also, for all you imbeciles talking about Jesus and "capitalism," I should point out that every biblical fairytale PREDATES capitalism and any principled respect for property rights. Just as there is no mention of any marsupial in the Bible (due to the physical location of the barbaric authors of your book) there is no noncoincidental discussion of "capitalist" doctrines proper. And just because they used gold and silver DOES NOT mean the Bible advocates sound money. The bible predated printing presses and formal central banking. Ludwig von Mises pioneered the charge against fiat money, NOT Middle Eastern soothsayers.

Stop trying to justify libertarianism with your fairytales. Even your own churches would disagree with your interpretations. Religion and the State are eternally intertwined. There is no distinction. Both are institutions used to subjugate, conquer, and exploit people, for the sole purpose of benefiting the exploiters.

 

[LATruth]

FINALLY, the discussion I wanted to spur...

The thread was topical, doesn't matter how controversial it may have been.

And to settle a small notion about being about to copy and paste items in a forum, sure you can... I am member of the davidIcke Forums as well, all you have to do is quote the person, copy the code, and paste elsewhere. They use vBull as well. I did take the liberty of bolding the numbers, etc for easier reading of a long post.

 

[BeFranklin]

FINALLY, the discussion I wanted to spur...

The thread was topical, doesn't matter how controversial it may have been.

And to settle a small notion about being about to copy and paste items in a forum, sure you can... I am member of the davidIcke Forums as well, all you have to do is quote the person, copy the code, and paste elsewhere. They use vBull as well. I did take the liberty of bolding the numbers, etc for easier reading of a long post.

Removing some incriminating pictures, the name lucifer as the author, etc.