**Official** Trayvon Martin thread

[jmdrake]

He didn't need to get him off first. He only needed to free the arm that was able to reach the gun.

He needed to free the arm and get his arm under Trayvon because Trayvon was, according to Zimmerman's description, sitting on both arms and on Zimmerman's gun. Like I said, I'll be interested to see the demonstration. But right now it sounds far fetched.

 

[jmdrake]

Because we looked at the actual facts, not the media spin? This case is pretty simple. The Martin's were contacted by an Al Sharpton like "Civil Rights" Lawfirm notorious in that state for running shakedowns and not practicing anything resembling actual law. These lawyers then fed the media a story, almost entirely made up of lies and half truths, that stoked a bunch of race nonsense. A person was arrested and put in jail because of this. Most of the people on this site care passionately about liberty. We react negatively to injustice. George Zimmerman is a victim of the State. The prosecutor embodies everything that is evil and wrong with the US Justice system. It absolutely boggles my mind how any liberty minded person can't be outraged about this case.

Yeah. The prosecution is evil for going along with the initial police recommendation to charge Zimmerman which got overturned because somebody *cough Zimmerman's politically connected daddy cough* contacted the DA and chief of police and told them to intervene. Meanwhile a black woman get's 20 years for standing her ground and firing a warning shot. Where's the outrage there?

 

[teacherone]

I've skipped the last 50 pages of this thread. Who cares if Zimmerman was punching him in the face?

You can't go looking for a fight, let yourself get your ass half wupped. And then shoot the other guy dead.

 

[Captain Shays]

I've skipped the last 50 pages of this thread. Who cares if Zimmerman was punching him in the face?

You can't go looking for a fight, let yourself get your ass half wupped. And then shoot the other guy dead.

So where is the evidence to show that is what happened? Did you listen at all to the 911 call from that night including the entire exchange between Zimmerman and the dispatcher?

If yes, then what prompted you to say that Zimmerman provoked a fight with Martin? Are there any witnesses that you know about that saw Zimmerman provoke a fight?

 

[dannno]

I've skipped the last 50 pages of this thread. Who cares if Zimmerman Trayvon was punching him in the face?

You can't go looking for a fight, let yourself get your ass half wupped. And then shoot the other guy dead.

fify

Secondly, Zimmerman wasn't looking for a 'fight', he was just making sure Trayvon wasn't going to rob anybody's house. Apparently Trayvon started the confrontation and the fight because Zimmerman was scoping him out, and there is no proof otherwise. So until you find proof, you can't convict Zimmerman based on your theories about what happened.

Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Captain Shays]

He needed to free the arm and get his arm under Trayvon because Trayvon was, according to Zimmerman's description, sitting on both arms and on Zimmerman's gun. Like I said, I'll be interested to see the demonstration. But right now it sounds far fetched.

Not to split hairs but I think you know as well as me, that even if Martin was sitting on both Zimmerman's knees assumingly with his own knees all Zimmerman would really need to do is squirm, raise his chest a little and weasel his arm free long enough to grab that gun and shoot Martin.
Otherwise I don't know how the story can be told. Either we believe that Martin was at some point sitting on Zimmerman's chest beating the snot out of him like the eye wittness said and which confirms to some degree Zimmerman's account or we need a completely different story. Why? Because EVERYONE does agree that Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. Thats an undisputed fact. So at some point during the altercation Zimmerman reached for his gun and was able to grab it and shoot Martin. So IF Martin was on top of Zimmerman's chest then Zimmerman was able to get his gun and shoot him. If not something else happened. But again, we do have an eye witness.
It just doesn't matter how he got his gun. So what? He weasled out from under Martin's knees just for a second or two or three allowing him accsess to the gun. I just don't know how it would matter unless we're trying to prove another story like Zimmerman shot Martin while they were standing up or something.

 

[Captain Shays]

fify

Secondly, Zimmerman wasn't looking for a 'fight', he was just making sure Trayvon wasn't going to rob anybody's house. Apparently Trayvon started the confrontation and the fight because Zimmerman was scoping him out, and there is no proof otherwise. So until you find proof, you can't convict Zimmerman based on your theories about what happened.

Innocent until proven guilty.

I would tend to agree with you Dannno but in all fairness there isn't any evidence that Martin started the fight with Zimmerman either. It boils down to factual evidence. So far I don't know of ANY that accurately depicts the start of the encounter which means Zimmerman walks free on that account because there is evidence via the eye witness that Zimmerman had enough reason to believe his life was in danger to shoot Martin

 

[TheTexan]

Defending your neighborhood, and by extension your home, isn't "looking for a fight". This is what many people don't seem to get

 

[jmdrake]

Not to split hairs but I think you know as well as me, that even if Martin was sitting on both Zimmerman's knees assumingly with his own knees all Zimmerman would really need to do is squirm, raise his chest a little and weasel his arm free long enough to grab that gun and shoot Martin.

Nope. I don't "know" that. In fact I don't think that's true at all. And Martin wasn't sitting on Zimmerman's knees. Martin's knees were on Zimmerman's arms with his (Martin's) knees according to Zimmerman. If Zimmerman "weaseled his arm free" he still would have Martin sitting on the gun. At this point Martin would probably have felt the gun and would know he didn't want Zimmerman getting to it. Oh yeah, and Zimmerman's getting punched in the face the whole time. From my own submission wrestling experience, and talking to others in self defense, I honestly don't see how Zimmerman got to gun without first getting Martin off of him. Now I can easily see how Zimmerman could get Martin off of him in this situation. It's a simple matter of bump and roll. Considering Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 40 to 60 lbs that should have been relatively easy.

Otherwise I don't know how the story can be told. Either we believe that Martin was at some point sitting on Zimmerman's chest beating the snot out of him like the eye wittness said and which confirms to some degree Zimmerman's account or we need a completely different story. Why? Because EVERYONE does agree that Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. Thats an undisputed fact. So at some point during the altercation Zimmerman reached for his gun and was able to grab it and shoot Martin. So IF Martin was on top of Zimmerman's chest then Zimmerman was able to get his gun and shoot him. If not something else happened. But again, we do have an eye witness.
It just doesn't matter how he got his gun. So what? He weasled out from under Martin's knees just for a second or two or three allowing him accsess to the gun. I just don't know how it would matter unless we're trying to prove another story like Zimmerman shot Martin while they were standing up or something.

The simplest explanation is that either Zimmerman threw Martin off of him outright or bumped and rolled into Martin's guard. I'm not saying Zimmerman was standing up. Just that he was most likely on top of Martin when the shot occurred. And yes. It matters quite a bit how Zimmerman got to his gun. Because if he established a dominant position first, that reduces the veracity of the self defense claim.

 

[Captain Shays]

Nope. I don't "know" that. In fact I don't think that's true at all. And Martin wasn't sitting on Zimmerman's knees. Martin's knees were on Zimmerman's arms according to Zimmerman. Knees on arms, butt on chest. If Zimmerman "weaseled his arm free" he still would have Martin sitting on the gun. At this point Martin would probably have felt the gun and would know he didn't want Zimmerman getting to it. Oh yeah, and Zimmerman's getting punched in the face the whole time. From my own submission wrestling experience, and talking to others in self defense, I honestly don't see how Zimmerman got to gun without first getting Martin off of him. Now I can easily see how Zimmerman could get Martin off of him in this situation. It's a simple matter of bump and roll. Considering Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 40 to 60 lbs that should have been relatively easy.



The simplest explanation is that either Zimmerman threw Martin off of him outright or bumped and rolled into Martin's guard. I'm not saying Zimmerman was standing up. Just that he was most likely on top of Martin when the shot occurred. And yes. It matters quite a bit how Zimmerman got to his gun. Because if he established a dominant position first, that reduces the veracity of the self defense claim.

I did mean to say Martin's knees were on Zimmerman's arms and his butt to his chest. I don't think it's necessary to go back and edit my statement at this point since I am admitting to the correct description that you outlined.

But come on Drake. It was a struggle. It was moving. If Martin was throwing punches relying only on his knees to hold down Zimmerman's arms while Zimmerman was squirming around trying to free only one arm to grab his gun that to me is every bit as plausible if not more so than Zimmerman doing a complete reverse, getting on top or Martin and shooting him. I don't think there was enough time for that anyway when you consider the eye witness who was on the phone with the dispatcher while the event was actually in progress culminating with the sound of the gun shot in the back ground. By the eye witness account, the guy with the hoodie was on top of the guy in the red sweatshirt and smashing his head into the pavement then BOOM. The screams for help stopped.

 

[jmdrake]

I did mean to say Martin's knees were on Zimmerman's arms and his butt to his chest. I don't think it's necessary to go back and edit my statement at this point since I am admitting to the correct description that you outlined.

But come on Drake. It was a struggle. It was moving. If Martin was throwing punches relying only on his knees to hold down Zimmerman's arms while Zimmerman was squirming around trying to free only one arm to grab his gun that to me is every bit as plausible if not more so than Zimmerman doing a complete reverse, getting on top or Martin and shooting him. I don't think there was enough time for that anyway when you consider the eye witness who was on the phone with the dispatcher while the event was actually in progress culminating with the sound of the gun shot in the back ground. By the eye witness account, the guy with the hoodie was on top of the guy in the red sweatshirt and smashing his head into the pavement then BOOM. The screams for help stopped.

Come on? Where are you going? I've laid out clear reasons why I don't believe Zimmerman's story. And it's based on my own experience in submission wrestling. You think otherwise? Fine. That's your right. But it's beyond silly of you to project your own view of what happened on to me. From the position Zimmerman described, I find him executing the move you are describing to be nearly impossible if not completely impossible especially with Martin raining punches down on him. And if you think reversing positions takes a lot of time, well watch this video.



A position can be reversed in one second or less.

Edit: AND YOU KEEP IGNORING THE FACT THAT MARTIN WOULD HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THE GUN! It's not just "weaseling an arm free". It's "weaseling an arm free and getting it under someone and grabbing a gun that the person sitting on top of you has most likely already felt".

Edit 2: And there was a witness that said the struggling had stopped before the shot. If that witness is credible then that really blows a hole (no pun intended) in the self defense theory.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/...-main-mostpop2

Trayvon Martin may have been running from Zimmerman at first.

The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin. One witness interviewed said she saw one of the subjects chasing the other, but could not see who was who. A recording of a female identified as Martin’s longtime friend who was on the phone with him just before the shooting said he began to run when he realized Zimmerman was following him.

• One witness said the fight had ended by the time the shot rang out.

A woman that police interviewed said she could not distinguish who was on top of whom, but after the gunshot one person was holding the other on the ground by pressing on his back. But her friend, who assisted in translating for the eyewitness, was “adamant” that there was no physical fighting taking place when the shot rang out. Both were taken to the police department for more questioning.

 

[Captain Shays]

Drake. I grew up with an older brother who used to TORTURE me on a daily basis by sitting on my chest with his knees holding down my arms. He would then have both hands free to slap my face, pinch my nose, pull my eyes, poke my eyes and lick his hand and wipe the wet stuff on my face. Eventually I did learn to break free by getting my arms free and lifting my chest. THAT is NOT what is depicted in your video.

 

[jmdrake]

Drake. I grew up with an older brother who used to TORTURE me on a daily basis by sitting on my chest with his knees holding down my arms.

So did I.

He would then have both hands free to slap my face, pinch my nose, pull my eyes, poke my eyes and lick his hand and wipe the wet stuff on my face. Eventually I did learn to break free by getting my arms free and lifting my chest. THAT is NOT what is depicted in your video.

Good for you. Did you go for a gun that your brother was sitting on? Was he punching you full for in the face? No? Then your experience doesn't apply to the scenario. I didn't say I didn't believe Zimmerman could get an arm free. I said I didn't think it was plausible that Zimmerman could get his arm free and get to the gun Martin would have been sitting on all the time receiving full force blows to the face.

As for the point of the video, it was to refute your argument that it would take too long for a reversal to happen. I think it should be pretty obvious to you now that it doesn't take long to do a mount reversal. And hopefully it took your mind off TM and GZ for a minute.

 

[farreri]

Most of the people on this site care passionately about liberty. We react negatively to injustice. George Zimmerman is a victim of the State. The prosecutor embodies everything that is evil and wrong with the US Justice system.

The only victim here was the innocent teenage boy who was shot dead by the over-zealous wannabe cop who was carrying a concealed weapon and never identified himself to the boy he was chasing down that he was the Neighborhood Watch.

What about Trayvon's liberty? Or are people you want to protect gun rights for only entitled to liberty?

It absolutely boggles my mind how any liberty minded person can't be outraged about this case.

Yeah, I agree!

 

[farreri]

Considering that calling the cops 46 time over a period of 8 years works out to and average of less than once every 2 months (46 time divided by 8 years equals 5.75 times per years) and plus the fact Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain the use of the word "habitually" is somewhat hyperbole.

You skipped commenting about the part that out of those 46 times he called, only nine of those times "he saw someone or something suspicious."

And tell me, how many times have you called 911 since 2004?

 

[farreri]

Sometimes the rotational forces on the head leave the blood vessels intact but stress the neurons to the point that they cease to function normally, causing a loss of consciousness. The victim then smashes his head on the concrete, which causes bleeding or other catastrophic brain injury. This scenario played out in 2003, when a drunken bar fly in San Diego killed a former Marine with a sucker punch. (Zimmerman’s attorneys will likely emphasize the danger of pavement in a fistfight, as police photos show injuries to the back of his head.)

This is what I don't get. Zim claims he shot to save his life. A witness says Trayvon was on top of Zim raining punches down on him "MMA-style." Zim's brother on TV said Zim was about to pass out from having his head repeatedly bashed into the concrete. Your article tells of a former Marine dying from being sucker punched and presumably falling and hitting his head on concrete.

How was Zim able grab his gun and make a point-blank shot into Trayvon's heart and then be seen in the police videos acting and walking normal like he had never been touched?

 

[farreri]

It's not about him being a mean person, but it's about demonstrating an established behavior pattern.
Zimmerman has shown himself to be a fairly paranoid and confrontational person. He has been known to start conflicts with people. It demonstrates that starting a confrontation with a young black man, was very in-character for him.

I'm glad someone gets it!

And don't forget, Zimmerman started the confrontation with a concealed gun and never identified who he was to the innocent boy (i.e. the Neighborhood Watch, a position of authority like it or not).

 

[farreri]

He needed to free the arm and get his arm under Trayvon because Trayvon was, according to Zimmerman's description, sitting on both arms and on Zimmerman's gun. Like I said, I'll be interested to see the demonstration. But right now it sounds far fetched.

All the while "about to pass out" from supposedly having his head repeatedly bashed into the concrete.

 

[Bruno]

All the while "about to pass out" from supposedly having his head repeatedly bashed into the concrete.

To play devil's advocate, you can almost pass out or even be knocked out and recover in a minute, up walking around a little dazzed but otherwise okay.

 

[farreri]

Zimmerman wasn't looking for a 'fight'

All the evidence about his character paints him as someone looking for a confrontation. Remember, he had the concealed weapon. Why do you Zim-backers seem to let him off the hook for holding any kind of responsibility for carrying a gun on him?

he was just making sure Trayvon wasn't going to rob anybody's house.

And he could have down that from 50 ft or more away, something any responsible Neighborhood WATCH person with common-sense would do, especially if they were carrying a gun around.

Apparently Trayvon started the confrontation

According to who?

Innocent until proven guilty.

Sadly, not for Trayvon.