Obama birth certificate issue gaining momentum - Youtube video has over 560,000 views

[Reason]

This is a non issue.

 

[lynnf]

think again?

This is a non issue.

at least 560,000 think you're wrong.

lynn

 

[Njon]

Of course he is a citizen.

He may be a citizen, but he's not a natural born citizen. There's a difference.

The likely intended construction of the natural born citizen clause comes from Vattel, who states that a person cannot be natural born if his/her parents are not citizens. Read pages 8-10 (the top page numbering, not the bottom page numbering) at http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/...s-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss

Vattel also seems to place special emphasis on the father's citizenship. Obama's father was never an American citizen. Even if he was born in Hawaii, he is not and cannot ever be natural born.

 

[Njon]

What?! Being born in the United States is what makes you a natural citizen, its called Jus soli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

False. If you are a Constitutionalist, then you must adhere to the intended construction of the Constitution. Vattel's Law of Nations clearly shows that if someone's father is not a citizen, the child is not natural born. Vattel held large prominence in early American thought --- see http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/624086/Emmerich-de-Vattel --- and his definition has even been cited by the courts in the past (see the cases referenced in the document link I provided).

 

[Number19]

Show me where in the Constitution it says that both parents must be US Citizens to be a natural born citizen. It isn't in there. Natural born is- but nothing in it defines natural born. Show me a US law which says to be natural born both parents have to be citizens.

The Fourteenth Amendment gives a bit more info on citizen rights but again does not say much about who is actually a citizen, let alone a natural born one.

The ammendment was intended to bestow citizenship on slaves who were born in the US but deined citizenship by some of the states. This made it apply to all states and all people born in the United States.

He does fall into the "persons born in the United States" category (unless somebody can prove he was born somewhere else).

Title Eight of the US Code section 1401 helps codify who is a citizen:

It says nothing about both parents needing to be citizens if the child is born in one of the several states, of which Hawaii was one when he was born there.

Now even if it was shown (and nobody has really attempted to do so) that he was born outside the United States, then this section would apply, since his mother is from the American heartland of Iowa:

One parent- not both- have to be citizens. And it does not matter if the one parent is the mother or the father.

The details of the law defining citizenship and naturalization is determined by legislation, and one must research the law applicable during the time period of the birth under question.

In 1961, the law was codified under The Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27, 1952.

Title III - Nationality and Naturalization ; Chapter 1 - Nationality At Birth and By Collective Naturalization ; Nationals and Citizens of the United States At Birth ; Sect 391 ; Paragraph (7) : a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/1952-Immigration-and-Nationality-Act-Title3-Chapter1

OBAMA'S MOM DID NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENT REFERRING TO THE AGE OF 14 YEARS.

Two other points :

3) It seems as if Certification of Live Births, in Hawaii, are officially issued to foreign births, provided the parents had resided in Hawaii for at least one year prior to the birth.

4) It seems that the records of medical facilities in Honolulu County have been checked for the year 1961 and there is no record of admittance for the Obama's and no record of baby Barack having been born in such a facility.

A possible scenario is :

The Obama's traveled to Kenya to be with family during the birth. Returning to Hawaii, they then obtained the legal Certification of Live Birth and at which point the newspapers published the birth announcement.

 

[Zippyjuan]

A French jurists opinion does not take precidence over US written laws.

Title III - Nationality and Naturalization ; Chapter 1 - Nationality At Birth and By Collective Naturalization ; Nationals and Citizens of the United States At Birth ; Sect 391 ; Paragraph (7) : a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/19...itle3-Chapter1

OBAMA'S MOM DID NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENT REFERRING TO THE AGE OF 14 YEARS.

Two other points :

3) It seems as if Certification of Live Births, in Hawaii, are officially issued to foreign births, provided the parents had resided in Hawaii for at least one year prior to the birth.

A couple of problems here. First, the article you cite refers to persons born outside the United States. In 1961, Hawaii was a state and thus part of the United States. But I give you credit for trying to look it up. I listed the other criteria for citizenship listed in the paper you link to and you even quoted it- although not the exact same source, the information is the same. Persons born in the US are citizens. Period. Read the first line. Section 301 in your link- part (a)(i).

Second, the point you raise about Hawii issuing certificates of live births to those not born in the state was not legal until 1983- he was born in 1961 so you failled to follow your own suggestion of using laws in effect at the time of his birth.

 

[Sandra]

A French jurists opinion does not take precidence over US written laws.



A couple of problems here. First, the article you cite refers to persons born outside the United States. In 1961, Hawaii was a state and thus part of the United States. But I give you credit for trying to look it up.

Second, the point you raise about Hawii issuing certificates of live births to those not born in the state was not legal until 1983- he was born in 1961 so you failled to follow your own suggestion of using laws in effect at the time of his birth.

Vatel wasn't even published in anglais until a decade after the Constitution was written.

 

[Zippyjuan]

French is considered the "official language" in much international law so it is certainly possible that the founders were aware of and had read it. Pretty sure Jefferson knew French and was very well read. I don't discount it due to its not being translated into English. It is just more important what our own laws say about citizenship than what he said. Vattel (as I have since learned I made an eroneous assumption about his being French- he was actually Swiss) copied his ideas (and added to them) from the works of others- as may have done.

 

[fedup100]

His mom was a US citizen, so that makes him one unless he renounced it, which he didn't.

This is real simple, but the slice and dice crew are at it as usual.

His MOTHER was NOT and american citizen at the time of his purported birth. She had lived outside the country for way to long to be deemed a citizen.

His father is listed as an arab and muslim and was not an american citizen.

The BC he has posted is not an original and has been proven to be forged over his sisters BC!

He has spent well over $1 million fuckin dollars to make sure he never has to produce something he does not have. Would you flush a mil $ if you had an original?

A cock roach can get a certificate of live birth in Hawaii, no one that claims to be a citizen of Hawaii should EVER be allowed to run for office in this country.

Hell, Osama and his mama can go there today and become american citizens over night. I am sure this bunch that have slipped the Kenyan into high office right under your noses are laughing their asses off behind closed doors at all the stupid bastards that are buying this crap.

His realatives in Kenya have spoken often of being at his birth in KENYA!

The famous 2 "hospital letter" fiasco proves zero is hiding something.

By the way, where are any of his medical record?

Some of his college records have been released and show him as a FOREIGN student.

For those of you with your head up your ass, this IS a matter of national security. Meaning, security for the safety of your ass.

 

[Bman]

You know this topic may get attention, and all of the attention it gets is going to be used to make the lot of you look like nut cases. I'm not saying people don't have a valid point, and there's nothing wrong with demanding proof if you feel you haven't been given any, but there are two tricks to this that must be realized.

1. His mother is a natural born American Citizen. Which makes it terribly hard to say her child is not.

2. You have to know when you've lost. In other words you have to know what proof you are looking for, and to shut up and sit down if you recieve it.

 

[Njon]

A French jurists opinion does not take precidence over US written laws.

You also need to remember that U.S. statutes do not outrank the original intent of the Constitution. If the original intent of the Constitution's natural born citizen clause is the definition of Vattel --- and it likely is --- then that definition trumps any statutes to the contrary.

 

[Number19]

...Second, the point you raise about Hawii issuing certificates of live births to those not born in the state was not legal until 1983- he was born in 1961 so you failled to follow your own suggestion of using laws in effect at the time of his birth.

No...this is simply a piece of information I did not have, if it is accurate. My research on this topic was done in 2008, and I'm a bit fuzzy on it, but I seem to recall ( and I could be wrong ) that the 1983 statute was an update/amendment to earlier legislation, which was very similar. If I ever return to this topic in seriousness, your point will be taken into consideration and my position adjusted accordingly.

I just did a very quick search and found this :

...The following Hawaii state law (Hawaii Revised Statutes S. 338-17.8) allows children who are born outside Hawaii to obtain valid Hawaiian birth certificates...

http://24ahead.com/hawaiian-state-law-allows-children-born-outside-hawaii-get-v

So 1983 is a "revised" statute, as I remembered. I tried to find, I'm remembering, the prior legislation, and was unable to do so.

 

[Zippyjuan]

How much BS can you fit into one post?
(Fedup100 - a couple other posts showed up by the time I posted this reply)
How long can you leave the country for and lose your citizenship? Is there any such limit? How long was she outside the country for? His father is merely listed as "African" not muslim or or arab. See for yourself. You can click on it and see it nice and big if you are having troubles reading it. http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg

There is no claim that his father was a US citizen- his mother was.

Please provide a link to the "proof" that it was a forgery over his sister's certificate. This one shows no sign of having anything printed underneath any of the writing. There are several more photos of different details of it you can find in the box on the left side of this link. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

The question about a foreigner able to get a birth certificate in Hawaii has already been discussed.

His grandmother was misquoted as saying he was born in Kenya. During his visit to Kenya as President, his uncle said that was the first time Obama had been to Kenya.


Number19- thank you for looking that up.

 

[Number19]

...1. His mother is a natural born American Citizen. Which makes it terribly hard to say her child is not...

Why? I stated my argument/proof in post #28. Why is this line of questioning so hard to follow or believe. It's not a question of what the law is today, but rather what it was in 1961, and I provided that information.

 

[Bman]

Why? I stated my argument/proof in post #28. Why is this line of questioning so hard to follow or believe. It's not a question of what the law is today, but rather what it was in 1961, and I provided that information.

So you are saying that. Obama's mother never lived in the U.S. for ten years, and more importantly that she didn't live her for 5 years prior to turning 14?

Where is this evidence at.

 

[ghengis86]

The details of the law defining citizenship and naturalization is determined by legislation, and one must research the law applicable during the time period of the birth under question.

In 1961, the law was codified under The Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27, 1952.

Title III - Nationality and Naturalization ; Chapter 1 - Nationality At Birth and By Collective Naturalization ; Nationals and Citizens of the United States At Birth ; Sect 391 ; Paragraph (7) : a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/1952-Immigration-and-Nationality-Act-Title3-Chapter1

OBAMA'S MOM DID NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENT REFERRING TO THE AGE OF 14 YEARS.

Two other points :

3) It seems as if Certification of Live Births, in Hawaii, are officially issued to foreign births, provided the parents had resided in Hawaii for at least one year prior to the birth.

4) It seems that the records of medical facilities in Honolulu County have been checked for the year 1961 and there is no record of admittance for the Obama's and no record of baby Barack having been born in such a facility.

A possible scenario is :

The Obama's traveled to Kenya to be with family during the birth. Returning to Hawaii, they then obtained the legal Certification of Live Birth and at which point the newspapers published the birth announcement.

i think the 'five years after 14' is the important part here

 

[ghengis86]

So you are saying that. Obama's mother never lived in the U.S. for ten years, and more importantly that she didn't live her for 5 years prior to turning 14?

Where is this evidence at.

after 14

 

[Bman]

after 14

Thanks got it backwards.

 

[Bman]

Ok so then where is the proof that Obama was not born in the U.S.A. Considering she had Obama at 18 which would make her having a child out of the U.S. with a foreigner not a natural born American.

 

[ghengis86]

barry's mom was born November 29, 1942; barry was born (wherever) August 4, 1961. she was 18, not meeting the '5 years after 14' requirement