North Dakota to vote on ending property tax

No, just a rational human being pointing out your failure to demonstrate how "community"

On planet earth human community exists - physically. It is not an abstract thing. I can't speak for la-la world.

your nebulous, collectivist mental construct (which you presume to speak on behalf of) referred to as "community"? If so, I can definitely live with that, as it's a NON-ENTITY - a mental fiction - and we're back to square one, with you the one who is clearly befuddled.

Your mindstate is of no concern of mine. But first you have to accept that in human society "community" exists. Geoism prevents people appropriating, and exploiting, common wealth of the land and its resources.

First to get it all sorted in the muddle of your mind, you need to accept that there is:


1. Community
2. Common Wealth


The above is so. I never made it up.

Also get into your muddled mind, that Geoism is Geonomics. It is NOT an ideology. It is an economic system. It rights many wrongs and eliminates free-loaders. You promote free-loading. Geoism promotes freedom for the individual..
 
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Non-response with appeals to Geonomic scriptural dogma snipped...

What can I say, you're one of the faithful choir, EcoWarrier(sic), with arguments that are as simplistic and circular as they are rote. Can't argue with that!

Have a nice Geonomics.
 
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That is a lie. We have consistently stated our absolute commitment to securing private property in the things that can rightfully be property, because owning them does not inherently violate others' rights: i.e., products of labor. Owning land, by contrast, inherently removes others' rights to liberty, and land therefore cannot rightly be property.

The definition of land under Geoism is not property. It cannot be as it is common wealth. But Geonomics does not oppose title holding to land and exchanging this title, and rectifies all using the mechanism of Land Valuation Taxation.

The core of Geonomics is Land Valuation Taxation, the Single Tax. It is merely a tax shift nothing else. All else stays the same. Business behavior stays the same.

It is laughable that many here think a tax shift is some sort of Commie move. Geoism was promoted heavily by that famous Commie ....Winston Churchill. Some of the best speeches promoting are by Churchill.

Churchill continually debunked the Old Widow they continually wheel out - calling it the "Old Widow Bogey".

It is amazing they still do that today. :):):) They have only one bent arrow to their bow.
 
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EcoWarrier(sic), with arguments that are as simplistic and circular

I do not go around in circles at all. I know when to stop dead and look ahead. Clarity of thought does that for you. Identifying and separating essentials like "community", "private wealth", "common wealth" are essential to understand before you advance, otherwise, like you you, go around in circles.

Then once the basics are understood:
  1. Identify where common wealth is and where the common is wealth going. If this common wealth is not going into a common fund for common purposes then private free-loading is occurring. In effect stealing.
  2. Also, identify where private wealth is and where the private is wealth going. If this private wealth is not going into private pockets, state free-loading is occurring. In effect stealing.

Currently Numbers 1 & 2 occur - which is theft. Geonomic rectifies this theft.
 
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Ron has said that he is a believer in Voluntaryism (self government) which is a form of Anarchism. The belief that there is no state and no taxation, a rejection of the initiation of force and all services are provided by competing firms.

Perhaps ideally, but in practice he is a constitutionist. No one who practices voluntaryism would support his immigration policies.

I never said I thought he could. The President is not a dictatorship so I doubt he could get that far but he could introduce legislation to reduce the tax burden.

You know he said he would probably sign the National Sales Tax into law if he were president and it crossed his desk? Such a tax policy would be way more of a burden to citizens than anything I proposed.
http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/taxes/

For example in 2006 he made this recommendation to the Texas state legislature. I posted this first since the underlined parts below I have been repeatedly called a liar in this thread for pointing this out. So not only are you are calling me a liar you are also calling Ron Paul a liar.

Lol, wait what? When did I call you a liar? (Maybe I did but I rarely call people liars unless they are clearly trolling).

And I am all for simplifying the property tax. In fact, I want an end to the property tax as it is now. It taxes your house and all other improvements. Replace it with the LVT which has a proven track record of lessening tax burdens of homeowners.
 
That link is good.

Robinson Crusoe lands shipwrecked on the desert island.
Man Friday is already there on the beach.

Friday says, "I am all alone and have been here a year".
He went on, "I have formed a government and a law system and I
elect myself to all the assemblies and I am the president.
Friday continues, "also I own all the LAND of the island and I will
charge you rent for being here".

Crusoe, "How much? I do not have money and I cannot leave".

Fridays say, "I spend 4 hours a day running after rabbits, catch one
and that feeds me for one day. So, you will work 8 hours and catch 2
rabbits and give me one as rent, while I lay on the beach"

Crusoe agrees. After 2 months Crusoe uses his initiative and enterprise and gets some pointed stone and a stick and makes some
CAPITAL, which is man made things, which is a spear."

Crusoe then catches 20 rabbits in a day the capital is so successful.
Crusoe gives one to Friday and keeps 19 rabbits.

Friday sees the benefits that this capital gives, of which he had no
part in creating, and ups the rent to 19 rabbits a day.

The free-loading landlords alway win and take the lions share for doing
NOTHING.

To all the geoist what is more important to you, that we someday have a land value tax to replace the current property tax or to convince everyone that they cannot own land? I’m curious. I’m not against an improvement over the current tax, if given no other choice but, between a progressive income tax with complicated deductions and a flat tax. I choose the flat tax. If you sold me on the merits of LVT and implement it, don’t you win? Is it that important that my view be exactly as yours? I reason that, I can no more own a parcel of the sea than that of land, but I do not exist on the sea, I exist on land, I am only a creature of land. If I refuse or am unable to pay rent, anybody’s rent, am I to be denied my existents? Or denied my freedom? Or force into labor for my retribution? I only wish to exist. If land cannot be owned, then in its purity, it cannot be bought and sold by any individual or collection of individuals. We may each plant our dwelling where possible, squat where we can, as long as we don’t squat on someone else. when we are done we simply move on. The next filling the vacancy, Except for the improvement no transaction needed. No one be thy slave. If you choose to allow me to purchase or rent your dwelling I may, but not the land it sits on. The Robinson Crusoe story is interesting Friday claims he is the owner of all the island and he is the government. So in the story the government owned the land and charged rent, producing much oppression, much tyranny. Is that not what you propose, only the government can own the land therefor rent MUST be paid? I say the collection of individuals can no more own land than the individual. The collection of individuals cannot rightfully charge me rent nor the individual. That would be worse than theft. That is a price on my existents. That is slavery. What does it matter to the slave, if his master is, but one or many? Therefor I reject all taxes on improvements and land, both are evil.
 
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To all the geoist what is more important to you, that we someday have a land value tax to replace the current property tax or to convince everyone that they cannot own land? I’m curious.
IMO, if you think you own land in the same way you own the fruits of your labor, then there is no reason to change from income tax, sales tax or property tax to land value tax. They are all fundamentally the same. It is only by being willing to know the fact that you do not rightly own the publicly created value of your land that you can understand why LVT is morally and economically superior to other taxes.
I’m not against an improvement over the current tax, if given no other choice but, between a progressive income tax with complicated deductions and a flat tax. I choose the flat tax. If you sold me on the merits of LVT and implement it, don’t you win?
Maybe temporarily. That has happened in the past. The economic miracle of Meiji Japan was the direct result of using LVT. But they didn't understand it, so they let it be eroded; and then as landowners gained total economic rulership, the country turned fascist.
Is it that important that my view be exactly as yours?
I don't care what your view is. You are entitled to your own views. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
I reason that, I can no more own a parcel of the sea than that of land, but I do not exist on the sea, I exist on land, I am only a creature of land. If I refuse or am unable to pay rent, anybody’s rent, am I to be denied my existents?
That is what LVT + UIE secures for you: your rights to life and liberty.
Or denied my freedom?
It is private landowning that denies you your freedom.
Or force into labor for my retribution?
If you have your rights, you cannot be forced into labor.
I only wish to exist.
I doubt that. You also want access to opportunity.
If land cannot be owned, then in its purity, it cannot be bought and sold by any individual or collection of individuals. We may each plant our dwelling where possible, squat where we can, as long as we don’t squat on someone else.
One can have exclusive tenure without ownership, as Hong Kong proves.
The Robinson Crusoe story is interesting Friday claims he is the owner of all the island and he is the government. So in the story the government owned the land and charged rent, producing much oppression, much tyranny. Is that not what you propose, only the government can own the land therefor rent MUST be paid?
The government is under democratic control, and has the job of securing and reconciling the equal rights of all to use the land. It has a right to collect the rent on behalf of the people because it is administering the land in trust for the people. It also provides services and infrastructure needed to support civilization, and which create the rent. It therefore both earns the rent and has a right to collect it. The private landowner does none of those things, and therefore does not.
I say the collection of individuals can no more own land than the individual.
True. But it can and must administer possession and use of the land in trust for all who have equal rights to use it.
The collection of individuals cannot rightfully charge me rent nor the individual.
Wrong. The community performs a role of trustee that the individual does not perform.
That would be worse than theft. That is a price on my existents. That is slavery.
That is why the UIE is needed.
What does it matter to the slave, if his master is, but one or many? Therefor I reject all taxes on improvements and land, both are evil.
Your assertions were proved false above.
 
It is private landowning that denies you your freedom.
If I purchase land, how does that deny freedom to anybody else? What sort of freedom is being denied? Freedom of speech? Freedom to assemble? Freedom of religion?
 
If I purchase land, how does that deny freedom to anybody else?
It doesn't matter if you purchase it or the current owner keeps it, others are still denied their freedom to use it. Making land into private property inherently removes others' liberty to use it, liberty they would have had if the owner -- with government's generous help -- did not forcibly remove it.
What sort of freedom is being denied? Freedom of speech? Freedom to assemble? Freedom of religion?
Freedom to use what nature provided to sustain one's life.

If one acre is owned out of all the world, it doesn't matter much -- like not letting people use the word, "exfoliate" doesn't affect their freedom of speech much. But when all the good land is taken as private property, those without land have no choice but to serve the landowners or starve to death. That's like not being able to use any of the words you want to use, like, "liberty," "justice," "truth," and "honesty."
 
Would that apply to other things I may own- say I have a car then anybody who wants to use it should be able too- lest I deny them the freedom to use it? Or my house I live in- they should be free to come in and do whatever they want whenever they want to? IF I have land and want to put a farm on it and somebody thinks society should have a factory or garbage dump on it instead, they should tell the person on the land how they should use it? Is that freedom if others are telling you what to do? How should the "best use" of the land be decided?

If I buy land, I am more likely to try to maintain its value and get positive use out of it. If nobody owns it it is more likely to get abused and trashed and its value lessened (see Tragedy of the Commons). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons Look around your own community. Which houses are better maintained- the rentals or those owned by people who live there? Which then would have the greater "value"?

If "society" gets value from the land, they will get the most "value" if it is owned than if it is rented via LVT. Society does not add value ot the land they can "take back" by taxing the value of the land- any value gets added by how the land is used and what the owner does.
 
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Would that apply to other things I may own- say I have a car then anybody who wants to use it should be able too- lest I deny them the freedom to use it?
No, because your car is not something they would otherwise be at liberty to use. You had to provide it, by buying it from the people who made it. You did not provide the land, because no one made it. You merely bought it from a previous owner who was violating others' rights to use what was there all along, with no help from him or anyone else.

You will now refuse to know that fact.
Or my house I live in- they should be free to come in and do whatever they want whenever they want to?
See above. Try to find a willingness to know the fact that the car and house were not already there anyway, ready to use. The land was.
IF I have land
How could you "have" land other than by removing others' liberty to use it?
and want to put a farm on it and somebody thinks society should have a factory or garbage dump on it instead, they should tell the person on the land how they should use it?
Those who want to exclude others from the land need to compensate those whose rights they violate. The market value of that compensation is the high bid. The high bidder pays his bid to the community of those whose rights he will be violating, and gets to use the land for the purpose he chooses (within the permitted uses) and exclude others from it.
Is that freedom if others are telling you what to do?
No one is "telling" the landholder what to do, other than not to do things that would jeopardize productive use of nearby land.

Is it freedom if you have to give the fruits of your labor to a landowner in return for nothing?
How should the "best use" of the land be decided?
By the market. But communities also need to be able to block certain uses based on available and planned infrastructure, the externality effects of nuisance uses like garbage dumps, etc. I know there are lots of problems with zoning, especially corruption, but those problems result from giving away publicly created land value to private landowners.
If I buy land, I am more likely to try to maintain its value and get positive use out of it.
No, you're not, because land does not need any maintenance; you have no effect on its unimproved value; and you are more likely to use it productively if you are paying rent for it every month than if you are just holding it for a capital gain. This fact is proved by the thousands of privately owned vacant lots and abandoned buildings that clutter every major American city, even ones like NYC where land values are astronomical.
If nobody owns it it is more likely to get abused and trashed and its value lessened (see Tragedy of the Commons). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Only if government does not perform its legitimate function of securing and reconciling the equal rights of all to use it. Garrett Hardin, the author of "The Tragedy of the Commons," was dismayed that his work was appropriated by right-wing know-nothings as an argument for privatization of public resources, because he was actually arguing for better public stewardship of them.
If "society" gets value from the land, they will get the most "value" if it is owned than if it is rented via LVT.
That claim is objectively false, as proved above. Privately owned land is often held vacant for decades at a stretch. Rented land, by contrast, is used productively, or yielded to a more productive user.
Society does not add value ot the land they can "take back" by taxing the value of the land-
You know that is false. Land value is identically equal to the minimum value the owner expects to take from society and not repay in taxes.
any value gets added by how the land is used and what the owner does.
No, that is a flat-out lie. You are just lying. You know that vacant, unused land in the middle of a community like NYC has astronomical value even if the owner is comatose. You KNOW that its unimproved value, which any competent appraiser can measure with a high degree of accuracy, is totally unaffected by how the land is used and what the owner does.
Look around your own community. Which houses are better maintained- the rentals or those owned by people who live there?
How would that be relevant? Improvements are not land, and the incentives are totally different. There is a place in my own community where people have built their own houses on rented land. Those houses are the best maintained of all, because their owners are paying for the location every month, they consequently want to make the most productive use of it, and they know they can't count on land value appreciation to make up for improvement value depreciation. The WORST maintained houses are the vacant ones on privately owned land, whose owners are just waiting to pocket the capital gain when they figure the community has given them enough land value.
 
Zippy Juan said:
If nobody owns it it is more likely to get abused and trashed and its value lessened (see Tragedy of the Commons). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Only if government does not perform its legitimate function of securing and reconciling the equal rights of all to use it.

Zippy Juan's Problem: Equal rights of all to use the same resource results in its damage and/or depletion. (Tragedy of the Commons)
Roy's Solution: Government must secure and reconcile equal rights to use of all to use it.

The Tragedy of the Commons is caused by everyone already having an equal, free right of common access to use of the same parcel of land, or common resource. Thus, on the surface, Roy's solution might appear to be a logical absurdity, as he seems to be advocating the very cause of the problem as a solution. But that is not what Roy means when he says "securing and reconciling the equal rights of all to use it".

The net effect of Roy's solution (as government's "legitimate function") is to forcibly remove equal access to all for use of Common Land. What was once equal access to all becomes exclusive access granted to one (whomever is willing to pay the highest fee to the taxing jurisdiction that administers the land appropriated to it).

Garrett Hardin, the author of "The Tragedy of the Commons," was dismayed that his work was appropriated by right-wing know-nothings as an argument for privatization of public resources, because he was actually arguing for better public stewardship of them.

This can be somewhat misleading, because Roy's argument is for the privatization of exclusive access to those same "public resources". That wouldn't change. The only difference in either case (leasehold under LVT or freehold under landownership) is who is entitled to the economic rents - NOT the fact that exclusive access to the resource itself is granted and secured by the state to some paying entity, to the physical exclusion of all others.

Granting exclusive access to land to a single paying entity eliminates the problem of the Tragedy of the Commons, but creates a new problem, as everyone else is now physically, forcibly excluded or prevented from access to use of that same land. Under Roy's paradigm, that is a "right" that is unalienable, and therefore infringed. This infringement is then reconciled (economically) by Roy's solution in two parts:

In parsing what Roy wrote, note that he stated that government has a "legitimate function of securing and reconciling the equal rights of all to use it." (three operative words). So government must:

1) secure the equal rights of all to use "it", and it must also
2) reconcile the rights of all to use "it".

In the context of securing the equal rights of all to use "it", Roy could not have meant securing actual physical access (to everyone) to that particular parcel of land. Exclusive access is already granted to a single entity, which necessarily precludes access/use of that parcel of land to everyone else, who are necessarily excluded. Thus, that parcel of land is no longer available for their use during the term of the leasehold (which can be a lifetime for many if the leasehold remains in force for a long enough term). What cannot be physically "secured" as physical access must then be "reconciled" by compensation to individuals for a right that still exists but has been infringed - "reconciling" being the other operative word, through the unspoken-but-implied "just compensation".

What Roy's proposal really boils down to are the mechanics of "reconciling the rights of all to use it" whenever they are infringed upon (by agreement between the state and the landholder through which exclusive use and access is granted). The solution and rationale of this reconciliation are two-fold, involving Land Value Tax (LVT) and Roy's Universal Individual Exemption (UIE).

Under Roy's paradigm, LVT paid to the taxing jurisdiction is the equivalent of paying everyone in that community who was deprived of any access or use of any land within that taxing jurisdiction. However, that revenue is not paid to those individuals, and cannot be called just compensation to them to the extent that they do not receive it, as this revenue goes directly to the State, ostensibly to pay for government services and infrastructure that contributed, in part, to the value of land in the first place.

Scarce lands are allocated, from most to least valued lands, not according to equal rights of all, but rather according to the willingness and ability on the parts of certain entities (individuals or others, regardless of their legal status) to pay the most to the taxing jurisdiction. This satisfies the state's requirement for funding for services, infrastructure and other expenditures (some of which COULD, in theory, go individuals), but does not necessarily secure or reconcile any of the rights of those excluded from use or access to better lands held in common (for want of the willingness and ability to pay more to the taxing jurisdiction). That's where the UIE kicks in.*

The Universal Individual Exemption (UIE) would be granted to all individuals living within a taxing jurisdiction for the same amount to all that is said to be equal, according to Roy, for "enough good land to live on" (as defined by the state). That exemption could then be applied toward any land, thus making individuals exempt from paying for economic rents. The UIE is the primary mechanism for direct reconciliation ("just compensation") for any losses suffered by individuals for having been excluded from use of other land parcels in that taxing jurisdiction.

* Some LVT proponents propose actual dividends paid out to individuals - the way Alaska does now with tax dividends paid on oil revenues, but that is not discussed as it is not part of Roy's version of policy proposals surrounding his version of LVT.

Privately owned land is often held vacant for decades at a stretch. Rented land, by contrast, is used productively, or yielded to a more productive user.

Often true also of publicly owned land, which is often held vacant (in reserve) throughout the entire existence of the state.

Land value is identically equal to the minimum value the owner expects to take...

Aside from buyer/owner/holder expectations, actual market value is a forever transient phenomenon -- a dynamic variable that could be much more or much less than anyone's expectation - as anyone who bought in 2007 with long speculation in mind learned quickly enough as sellers made out like bandits while many buyers were turned upside down. Likewise longterm leaseholdings in Hong Kong, the real market value of which always deviates from what the leaseholder expects to take as minimum value versus what the state expected to capture in land value.
 
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This is insane. If I've worked all summer on a garden, planted and nurtured fruit trees and bushes--Roy thinks that people have the right to come on my property and steal the results of my labor, simply because that type of work requires land?

I drove by hundreds of farms today, but I didn't stop and take any of the vegetables/fruits being produced because that would be stealing.

I'll sell that to Roy, but if he thinks he can just walk onto someone's property and take the products of their work, he's a criminal. If he wants to be able to walk onto someone's land, he better get a job as a fucking landscaper or sharecropper. Otherwise he's nothing but a leech on the productive, who will probably end up with a shotgun pointed at him when he trespasses on the wrong property.
 
This is insane. If I've worked all summer on a garden, planted and nurtured fruit trees and bushes--Roy thinks that people have the right to come on my property and steal the results of my labor, simply because that type of work requires land?

In fairness, as the LVT argument goes, the results of your labor belong exclusively to you. 100%. Most LVT "single tax" proponents don't believe in income, sales, capital gains and other forms of taxes that erode equity or ownership of labor or capital. But they do argue that unimproved land (the geographic location and raw earth, below and apart from any improvements) must be taken out of the realm of being considered as capital.

What they are claiming is that the farmers' exclusive use (in the case of scarce agricultural lands) deprives others of their "equal right" to farm that same land, and produce the same fruits of their labors for themselves on that same land, which they see as Common (no matter how it's worded - collectively owned, Common Land, publicly owned, publicly administered, etc.,).

All of the roads, power lines, etc., leading up to that land, along with other surrounding infrastructure, creates part of the "market value" of that land. That's a Supply Side component of value. That is coupled with the Demand Side component (without which there can be no market value) - the fact that there are others who would be willing to pay some price for it (are covetous for their own use of that particular land).

All factors (both public and private) that contribute to the market value of land are collectivized under a single umbrella called "publicly created wealth", aka ground rents, or economic rent. Their idea that everyone has a right (liberty) to use ALL land renders all land privately unownable in the first place. Thus, they don't consider the Land Value Tax as stealing from anyone. Quite the opposite, their paradigm sees anyone who uses land exclusively without compensating everyone else (perpetually) as depriving others of their "liberty rights" (without "just compensation") and stealing from "the community". A portion of the farmer's crops, which are earned, may have to be sold and converted into currency to pay this tax (since value comes partly out of thin are, but wealth itself does not), but that's the rationale -- he's only compensating others for their deprivations.

So LVT is only the mechanism for "reclaiming" only what they see as "publicly created value" (or wealth, as value and wealth are conflated as one and the same) of unimproved land. The value of that land is only that which was provided by nature, government, and "community".

Community is the omnibus word that accounts for, collectivizes, and lays claims on behalf of, the many contributions/contributors to land value that are strictly private in origin. Such value (whether it translates into wealth or not) is seen as not being the result of private labor or improvements on that particular land, so it is captured on the basis that it is "unearned wealth" (unearned riches).

For a good treatment of the fallacy and hypocrisy of attacking unearned riches see The Rap Against Unearned Riches
 
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In fairness, as the LVT argument goes, the results of your labor belong exclusively to you. 100%. Most LVT "single tax" proponents don't believe in income, sales, capital gains and other forms of taxes that erode equity or ownership of labor or capital. But they do argue that unimproved land (the geographic location and raw earth, below and apart from any improvements) must be taken out of the realm of being considered as capital.

What they are claiming is that your exclusive use of scarce agricultural lands deprives others of their "equal right" to farm that same land, and produce the same fruits of their labors for themselves on that same land, which they see as Common (no matter how it's worded - collectively owned, Common Land, publicly owned, publicly administered, etc.,).

All of the roads, power lines, etc., leading up to that land, along with other surrounding infrastructure, creates part of the "market value" of that land. That is coupled with the fact that there are others who would be willing to pay some price for it (are covetous for their own use of that particular land).

All factors (both public and private) that contribute to the market value of land are collectivized under a single umbrella called "publicly created wealth", aka ground rents, or economic rent. Their idea that everyone has a right (liberty) to use ALL land renders all land privately ownable in the first place. Thus, they don't consider the Land Value Tax as stealing from anyone. Quite the opposite, their paradigm sees anyone who uses land exclusively without compensating everyone else (perpetually) as depriving others of their "liberty rights" (without "just compensation") and stealing from "the community". LVT is only the means for "reclaiming" only what they see as "publicly created value" (or wealth, as value and wealth are conflated) of unimproved land, or only that which was provided by nature, government, and "community" (the last being an omnibus way of accounting for, and collectivizing, and laying claims on behalf of, any contributions/contributors to land value that are strictly private in origin).

In other words, they want to capture the value that was not the result of private improvements, which they refer to as "unearned wealth" (unearned riches).

For a good treatment of the fallacy and hypocrisy of attacking unearned riches see The Rap Against Unearned Riches

Thanks for explaining, I haven't had the stomach to keep up with this thread.

People like Roy are all the more reason to generate my own power and stay off the grid as much as possible. I already pay for the roads via gas taxes and other taxes, so they can shove that. In rural areas, private individuals usually pay for power lines/cable lines, etc. And they definitely pay for wells and septic fields.

It seems they want an across the board solution for something that varies from person to person. We drive very infrequently and the gas tax makes sense to me--those who use the road more often, pay more. What would they have me do--buy a road from the government?

It just sounds so ridiculous.
 
Thanks for explaining, I haven't had the stomach to keep up with this thread.

People like Roy are all the more reason to generate my own power and stay off the grid as much as possible. I already pay for the roads via gas taxes and other taxes, so they can shove that. In rural areas, private individuals usually pay for power lines/cable lines, etc. And they definitely pay for wells and septic fields.

It seems they want an across the board solution for something that varies from person to person. We drive very infrequently and the gas tax makes sense to me--those who use the road more often, pay more. What would they have me do--buy a road from the government?

It just sounds so ridiculous.

I agree, for those and many other reasons. I stay focused and engaged with the LVT threads to learn every angle I can about its proponents and their various rationale and approaches, because I do see it as a potential threat to the very things its proponents think it will cure. There are many reasonable points they make, which I don't see as applying equally to everyone, as you pointed out. But because private landownership (ALL landownership, as a generic globally encompassing blanket) is blamed as being the root cause of every human evil imaginable, LVT gets shoveled out in its various forms as a utopian panacea with very little critical thinking - the miracle cure for everything that ails humanity, and the deliverer of liberty and justice for all.

If there is a baby in that bathwater, and I am convinced there is, I would prefer to identify that baby and drain the rest of the cloudy, murky tub.
 
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This is insane.
That must be why many great thinkers, including many great economists, have embraced it.
If I've worked all summer on a garden, planted and nurtured fruit trees and bushes--Roy thinks that people have the right to come on my property and steal the results of my labor, simply because that type of work requires land?
No. That's just some stupid, dishonest garbage you made up.
I'll sell that to Roy, but if he thinks he can just walk onto someone's property and take the products of their work, he's a criminal.
The land is not a product of anyone's work, and is therefore not anyone's rightful property.
If he wants to be able to walk onto someone's land, he better get a job as a fucking landscaper or sharecropper. Otherwise he's nothing but a leech on the productive, who will probably end up with a shotgun pointed at him when he trespasses on the wrong property.
It is indisputably the landowner who is the leech on the productive, as already proved many times. You can easily prove it to yourself, by trying to answer The Question:

"How, exactly, is production aided by the landowner's demand that the producer pay HIM for what government, the community and nature provide?"

See?
 
"How, exactly, is production aided by the landowner's demand that the producer pay HIM for what government, the community and nature provide?" See?

Yes, I see!

PretzelLogic.jpg


That always has been a very clumsy and convoluted question, Roy. I'll have to parse that out and reconstruct that ridiculous pretzel so that everyone can easily see what you are really trying to say -- including the part you think ought to be a big "GOTCHA!" or an "AHAH!" moment.
 
Yes, I see!

PretzelLogic.jpg
I guess when you need to avoid knowing something, and you have no facts, logic or arguments to offer, funny little pictures might enable you to forget that your beliefs have been proved false and evil. If you are easily distracted.
That always has been a very clumsy and convoluted question, Roy.
Lie. It is very clear and simple, and you know it. You just can't answer it, so you have to refuse to understand it.
I'll have to parse that out and reconstruct that ridiculous pretzel so that everyone can easily see what you are really trying to say -- including the part you think ought to be a big "GOTCHA!" or an "AHAH!" moment.
Oh, I gotcha all right, and you know it. You know very well that your inability to answer The Question proves your beliefs are false and evil. You just have to refuse to know it.
 
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