North Dakota to vote on ending property tax

[kahless]

Open out your mind - you have everything to gain. Everything.

Geoism is the antitheses of the individual liberty movement and the beliefs of Ron Paul.

Taxes require government. Government requires coercion. Coercion is not free market. No group has the right to tell me what to do. Just because we are social creatures doesn't mean there needs to be a dominant social order. That idea is garbage. If people want to come together voluntarily that's fine but forcing a social order where one is unwelcome breeds resentment and resentment will eventually destroy the whole thing.

^This

 

[EcoWarrier]

Those who fail to do the research create the knee-jerk posts calling Georgists/Geolibertarians commies. Once effectively proven wrong they completely disappear from the thread.

Noted.

 

[EcoWarrier]

Geoism is the antitheses of the individual liberty movement and the beliefs of Ron Paul.

180 degrees the other way. Geonomics gives FREEDOM. And reduces/eliminates free-loaders.

 

[EcoWarrier]

And for those who haven't read it yet, read this article illustrating the inherent injustice in landownership.

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/ope/archive/0409/0030.html

That link is good.

Robinson Crusoe lands shipwrecked on the desert island.
Man Friday is already there on the beach.

Friday says, "I am all alone and have been here a year".
He went on, "I have formed a government and a law system and I
elect myself to all the assemblies and I am the president.
Friday continues, "also I own all the LAND of the island and I will
charge you rent for being here".

Crusoe, "How much? I do not have money and I cannot leave".

Fridays say, "I spend 4 hours a day running after rabbits, catch one
and that feeds me for one day. So, you will work 8 hours and catch 2
rabbits and give me one as rent, while I lay on the beach"

Crusoe agrees. After 2 months Crusoe uses his initiative and enterprise and gets some pointed stone and a stick and makes some
CAPITAL, which is man made things, which is a spear."

Crusoe then catches 20 rabbits in a day the capital is so successful.
Crusoe gives one to Friday and keeps 19 rabbits.

Friday sees the benefits that this capital gives, of which he had no
part in creating, and ups the rent to 19 rabbits a day.

The free-loading landlords alway win and take the lions share for doing
NOTHING.

 

[EcoWarrier]

Nice try at a straw-man evasion, but that was never claimed. The question was not whether humans could act alone or in concert with others, or even as a group, but whether the material reality of a particular kind of grouping referred to as "community" even exists in the real world

Of course it exists!!!! Are you some sort of nutball? Are you paid to infest forums? You have never answered that.

You are clearly a free-loader.

 

[EcoWarrier]

And for those who haven't read it yet, read this article illustrating the inherent injustice in landownership.

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/ope/archive/0409/0030.html

Here it is...

Depression Hits Robinson Crusoe's Island
by Mrs. Mary Atterbury

"Friday," said Robinson Crusoe, "I'm sorry, I fear I must
lay you off."

"What do you mean, Master?"

"Why, you know there's a big surplus of last year's crop. I
don't need you to plant another this year. I've got enough
goatskin coats to last me a lifetime. My house needs no
repairs. I can gather turtle eggs myself. There's an
overproduction. When I need you I will send for you. You
needn't wait around here."

"That's all right, Master, I'll plant my own crop, build up
my own hut and gather all the eggs and nuts I want myself.
I'll get along fine."

"Where will you do this, Friday?"

"Here on this island."

"This island belongs to me, you know. I can't allow you to
do that. When you can't pay me anything I need I might as
well not own it."

"Then I'll build a canoe and fish in the ocean. You don't
own that."

"That's all right, provided you don't use any of my trees
for your canoe, or build it on my land, or use my beach for
a landing place, and do your fishing far enough away so you
don't interfere with my riparian rights."

"I never thought of that, Master. I can do without a boat,
though. I can swim over to that rock and fish there and
gather sea-gull eggs."

"No you won't, Friday. The rock is mine. I own riparian rights."

"What shall I do, Master?"

"That's your problem, Friday. You're a free man, and you
know about rugged individualism being maintained here."

"I guess I'll starve, Master. May I stay here until I do? Or
shall I swim beyond your riparian rights and drown or starve
there?"

"I've thought of something, Friday. I don't like to carry my
garbage down to the shore each day. You may stay and do
that. Then whatever is left of it, after my dog and cat have
fed, you may eat. You're in luck."

"Thank you, Master. That is true charity."

"One more thing, Friday. This island is overpopulated. Fifty
percent of the people are unemployed. We are undergoing a
severe depression, and there is no way that I can see to end
it. No one but a charlatan would say that he could. And if
any ship comes don't let them land any goods of any kind.
You must be protected against foreign labor. Conditions are
fundamentally sound, though. And prosperity is just around
the corner."

 

[EcoWarrier]

Geoism is the antitheses of the individual liberty movement and the beliefs of Ron Paul.

You are in la-la land. And have an inane ability not to learn.

 

[Roy L]

The 2-3 accounts have consistently debated in several threads against outright individual ownership of private property.

That is a lie. We have consistently stated our absolute commitment to securing private property in the things that can rightfully be property, because owning them does not inherently violate others' rights: i.e., products of labor. Owning land, by contrast, inherently removes others' rights to liberty, and land therefore cannot rightly be property.

You have no facts, logic, or arguments to offer, so you have no choice but to lie about what we have plainly written.

I pointed out these beliefs and propaganda tactics are commonly associated with the more populist Communist ideology.

You lied about what we had plainly written.

I never used those terms in your reply nor took it to a personal level.

ROTFL!!

Yet responses from the two of you have been a personal attack on anyone that responds and claiming we are all liars.

We have identified specific false claims uttered with intent to deceive. Those are by definition lies.

 

[Roy L]

Ecowarrior/royl. Why you even here? You're not free market people like the rest of us.

It is you who are not free market people. Welfare subsidy giveaways to a privileged minority financed by stealing from the productive can't be part of a free market:

“In my opinion, the least bad tax is the property tax on the unimproved value of land, the Henry George argument of many, many years ago” -- Milton Friedman, Nobel laureate in economics and free market icon

Milton Friedman understood what free markets are all about. You do not. Simple.

We've tried your ideas and to date, they are a disaster.

Lie. To the extent that our ideas have been tried, they have always succeeded brilliantly.

You're a collectivist and collectivism doesn't work.

Our position is based on restoring the INDIVIDUAL right to liberty, stop lying.

Collectivism destroys desire and incentive. We don't all have the same goal. Face it.

You don't have the goal of liberty, justice and prosperity. I know.

RPFer's. Why you arguing with these idiots?

It is very simple: Ron Paul supporters are willing to think in terms of principles, and challenge assumptions and orthodoxies.

With names like royal and Eco (anything) and topics like land ownership and taxes you're bound to have a loosing battle even when you're right.

Which they aren't.

 

[redbluepill]

Geoism is the antitheses of the individual liberty movement and the beliefs of Ron Paul.

Ron Paul is not a anarchist. He is a constitutionist with libertarian leanings. He doesn't like taxes (and rightly so for majority of them) but you are delusional if you ever thought he would even attempt to get rid of all taxes if he had become president.

 

[kahless]

That is a lie. We have consistently stated our absolute commitment to securing private property in the things that can rightfully be property, because owning them does not inherently violate others' rights: i.e., products of labor. Owning land, by contrast, inherently removes others' rights to liberty, and land therefore cannot rightly be property.

So again you re-stated in bold my post that you do not believe in individual ownership of private property. The debate is about land and homes that are taxed. You do not believe in individual ownership in private property.

You have no facts, logic, or arguments to offer, so you have no choice but to lie about what we have plainly written.

I stated your belief and you confirmed my statement is your belief as recently as what you posted in bold above. All land and homes in your view is community property that should be subject to rent. Yet you continue to call me a liar.

You have gone as far as to correct me to state you are not a Communist but believe in Georgism. Both which disallow individual ownership of private property and believe all property is community property.

What I have learned from this thread is that believers in Georgism use the same propaganda tactics as Communists.

 

[redbluepill]

You have gone as far as to correct me to state you are not a Communist but believe in Georgism. Both which disallow individual ownership of private property and believe all property is community property.

And once again, you fail to understand. Georgists want improvements/capital to be private property. Even land itself would be in private hands, but it does not mean we recognize land can rightfully be considered property just as human beings cannot be rightfully considered property.

Thomas Paine sums up our views on property:
"it is value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated land owes to the community a ground-rent, for I know no better term to express the idea by, for the land which he holds."

http://www.wealthandwant.com/themes/underpop/Paine.htm

 

[Steven Douglas]

Of course [community] exists [as other than a mental construct]!!!! Are you some sort of nutball?

No, just a rational human being pointing out your failure to demonstrate how "community" exists other than a nebulous, ever-shifting mental construct. Actually read osan's post on the subject and answer that.

Are you paid to infest forums? You have never answered that.

Yes, while you infest forums with your nasty ideology for free, I am actually paid (voluntarily, no less) in literally billions and trillions of something. You might want to look into the Subjective Theory of Value for an explanation as to why your infestation is not valued, and to the degree that is, you might consider selling out while tons of geoist moonbat guano is still selling.

You are clearly a free-loader.

I am? Of what - your nebulous, collectivist mental construct (which you presume to speak on behalf of) referred to as "community"? If so, I can definitely live with that, as it's a NON-ENTITY - a mental fiction - and we're back to square one, with you the one who is clearly befuddled.

Speaking as an individual member of anything you might define in your mind as "community", you and your geoist ideology, as you've presented it, can go take a powder.

 

[kahless]

Ron Paul is not a anarchist. He is a constitutionist with libertarian leanings.

Ron has said that he is a believer in Voluntaryism (self government) which is a form of Anarchism. The belief that there is no state and no taxation, a rejection of the initiation of force and all services are provided by competing firms.

He doesn't like taxes (and rightly so for majority of them) but you are delusional if you ever thought he would even attempt to get rid of all taxes if he had become president.

I never said I thought he could. The President is not a dictatorship so I doubt he could get that far but he could introduce legislation to reduce the tax burden. For example in 2006 he made this recommendation to the Texas state legislature. I posted this first since the underlined parts below I have been repeatedly called a liar in this thread for pointing this out. So not only are you are calling me a liar you are also calling Ron Paul a liar.

, I would like the state legislature to consider an additional proposal.

Specifically, end the practice of annual assessments. Properties should be reassessed for tax purposes only when sold or ownership is otherwise transferred. The current system is terrifying for seniors forced to pay more and more each year, with no idea where they will find the money. And unlike other bills, property taxes must be paid or else one's home can be taken away. My office hears from seniors who may have no choice but to leave Texas altogether because they cannot live with the uncertainty of arbitrary property tax increases. They literally fear losing their homes.

At the federal level, Congress can act now to provide relief to those paying high property taxes. Although property taxes are deductible on your federal tax return, the current rules require taxpayers to itemize to take the deduction. Many people have a hard time paying $2,000 or $3,000 in property taxes, but they don't have enough other itemized deductions to exceed the standard deduction.

I introduced HR 5860 to address this problem. This legislation creates an “above the line deduction” on the first page of your 1040, meaning you can deduct every penny of your property taxes without itemizing and still enjoy the full value of your standard deduction. Even taxpayers using 1040A or 1040EZ forms can take the deduction. This means average and lower income taxpayers can take the same deduction for their property taxes that high-income taxpayers with complex deductions now enjoy.

An example of Ron might do as President.

Congressman Paul Introduces the Property Tax Deduction for All Act

December 11, 2007

For immediate release

Washington , DC - Congressman Ron Paul is yet again chipping away at the back-breaking tax burden on middle-class Americans with his recently proposed legislation. The Property Tax Deduction for All Act would make taxes on property an “above the line” deduction, meaning that taxpayers could deduct their property taxes without having to itemize all their deductions.

This would make the deduction available to millions of homeowners who take the standard deduction.

“Americans who have lived within their means and perhaps don’t pay enough in mortgage interest to make it advantageous to itemize their deductions are missing out on this relief. We should be rewarding their wisdom, not punishing them with a higher tax burden. I urge my colleagues in the House to support this bill and allow taxpayers to treat property taxes as an above the line deduction,” stated Congressman Paul.

 

[Roy L]

So again you re-stated in bold my post that you do not believe in individual ownership of private property.

No, you have again baldly lied about what I wrote in clear, plain, grammatical English.

The debate is about land and homes that are taxed.

And...? I have stated that the land should be taxed and not the homes, as the former is not rightly property but the latter is.

What if the debate was about slaves that were taxed? If I said those slaves were not rightly property, would you also lie then that I did not believe in individual ownership of private property? What if someone legally owned the sun, and I stated that the sun could not rightly be property, and on that basis advocated taxing its owner? Would you also lie then that I did not believe in individual ownership of private property?

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

You do not believe in individual ownership in private property.

You again baldly lie about what I have written repeatedly in clear, plain, grammatical English.

I stated your belief and you confirmed my statement is your belief as recently as what you posted in bold above.

No. You baldly lied about my belief; I identified and proved the fact that you lied about my belief; and now you have again lied not only about my belief, but about what I wrote in clear, plain, grammatical English.

All land and homes in your view is community property that should be subject to rent.

No. You have now again baldly lied about what I have clearly written, multiple times, in clear, plain, grammatical English. I have stated repeatedly that products of labor, such as homes, are rightly private property, while things that are not products of labor, such as the sun, are not rightly private property.

Yet you continue to call me a liar.

I have not called you a liar. That is a lie. I have merely identified and proved the fact that your statements are consistently lies.

You have gone as far as to correct me to state you are not a Communist but believe in Georgism.

That is another lie. I have not said I believe in Georgism. I have said many times in these land-related threads that I neither call nor consider myself a Georgist.

Both which disallow individual ownership of private property and believe all property is community property.

That is a bald, flat-out lie about Georgism.

What I have learned from this thread is that believers in Georgism use the same propaganda tactics as Communists.

What I have learned is that you have no compunction about lying your silly head off.

 

[Roy L]

No, just a rational human being pointing out your failure to demonstrate how "community" exists other than a nebulous, ever-shifting mental construct.

Lie, as already proved.

Actually read osan's post on the subject and answer that.

I have demolished and humiliated osan for his absurdities, just as I have repeatedly demolished and humiliated you for yours. You just have no shame.

I am? Of what - your nebulous, collectivist mental construct (which you presume to speak on behalf of) referred to as "community"?

Of the productive, who must pay for government twice in order that landowners can pocket one of the payments in return for contributing exactly nothing.

If so, I can definitely live with that, as it's a NON-ENTITY - a mental fiction - and we're back to square one, with you the one who is clearly befuddled.

You are indisputably lying, as no one over the age of four can be ignorant of the community's existence, even if they don't yet know its name.

 

[Roy L]

The belief that there is no state and no taxation, a rejection of the initiation of force and all services are provided by competing firms.

It is the landowner who initiates force (or rather, has government do it for him) against all who would otherwise be at liberty to use the land. That is a self-evident and indisputable fact of objective physical reality. You just have to refuse to know that fact, as you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.

 

[Steven Douglas]

I have demolished and humiliated osan for his absurdities, just as I have repeatedly demolished and humiliated you for yours. You just have no shame.

That sounds eerily like something right out of a badly written script for a cheesy B grade martial arts movie.

"I have demolished your village and humiliated and
punished osan for his treasonous absurdities, just
as I have repeatedly demolished and humiliated you
for yours. I will also eat your rice cakes, because you
have no honor. Make your time, gentlemen. All your
base are belong to us."

No, you have again baldly lied...
You again baldly lie...
You baldly lied...you lied... and now you have again lied...
You have now again baldly lied.
I have not called you a liar. That is a lie.
That is another lie.
That is a bald, flat-out lie...
What I have learned is that you have no compunction about lying...

Oof - another one bites the dust. This time it is not a liar, but only someone who lies and lies and lies.

 

[Roy L]

Oof - another one bites the dust. This time it is not a liar, but only someone who lies and lies and lies.

Are you insinuating that kahless is a liar?

 

[Steven Douglas]

Are you insinuating that kahless is a liar?

No, I think you pretty much did that - I was just flowing with and writing from the perspective of the Don Quixote imaginings of your mind.