NEW FEMA DOCUMENT! Guidelines for Mass Casualty Decontamination During a HAZMAT/WMD

Read ANY of the posts regarding this document. I said NOTHING of the sort. I am only presenting FEMA plans/docs. YOU are putting words in my mouth and participating in wordplay through your infantile adjectives used to describe "my idea" as and engaging in an act to undermine the validity of the post, subconsciously or not.

I made ZERO comments on the matter personally, just copy and paste from FEMA itself.


I bet you that you get pissed when someone opens a statement about Ron Paul as the kooky guy before they present his ideas, which blows the validity of his statements to the average Joe, you sir are doing just the same.

Fair enough.

And no. I try to look at everything with as much neutrality as I can. I'm of course skeptical and roll my eyes when someone calls Ron Paul "kooky", but can't say I've ever gotten pissed.

Regardless my original post was more directed towards all the comments in the thread, as was my poorly directed earlier question to you.
 
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Ok. But what makes you come to the conclusion that it's some big evil plot to take innocent americans and kill them for shits and giggles because the big evil completely efficient government wants to.

Why is it unreasonable to assume the worst whenever the government expands its grip?
 
Why is it unreasonable to assume the worst whenever the government expands its grip?

Because the government is an unorganized mess of a bloated bureaucracy. And because you should try looking at thinks with more neutrality then instead of being the same as people you criticize.

People point out about Katrina and FEMA being unorganized and not prepared because of bureaucracy. There is a thread here about the CDC being ineffective and should be replaced.

Yet you suddenly think that the government is now efficient and can run a dystopia novel plot? And evilily kill off americans.
 
So they had no clue what would happen to all of those people they herded into the Superdome?
Like I said, and now once again and in my best Dale Gribble voice, if you let them take you out of your house willingly, you will become a victim.
Now in my best Hank Hill voice,
They're not taking me anywhere...
 
So they had no clue what would happen to all of those people they herded into the Superdome?
Like I said, and now once again and in my best Dale Gribble voice, if you let them take you out of your house willingly, you will become a victim.
Now in my best Hank Hill voice,
They're not taking me anywhere...

The whole Superdome incident shows their ineptitude. A large space where they can better distribute emergency supplies such as food and water, however they were lacking it.
I doubt it was in their initial plans, but they used it in the situation.
 
Because the government is an unorganized mess of a bloated bureaucracy. And because you should try looking at thinks with more neutrality then instead of being the same as people you criticize.

People point out about Katrina and FEMA being unorganized and not prepared because of bureaucracy. There is a thread here about the CDC being ineffective and should be replaced.

Yet you suddenly think that the government is now efficient and can run a dystopia novel plot? And evilily kill off americans.

Thats a silly way to look at things if you ask me. Yes, government is inefficient and inept. It's also dangerous. It may not be able to effectively or efficiently cause us harm, but that doesn't mean it won't try. By your logic Hitler, Mao, and the rest of the mass murdering gang we've seen in history could never have done what they did.

Government is just a tool. Maybe a cumbersome tool, but the bigger we let it become the more it can do to us if allowed to be controlled by the wrong people. Efficiently or otherwise.
 
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Thats a silly way to look at things if you ask me. Yes, government is inefficient and inept. It's also dangerous. It may not be able to effectively or efficiently cause us harm, but that doesn't mean it won't try. By your logic Hitler, Mao, and the rest of the mass murdering gang we've seen in history could never have done what they did.

Government is just a tool. Maybe a cumbersome tool, but the bigger we let it become the more it can do to us. Efficiently or otherwise.

It's because democracy as it bloats is ineffective. Hitler/Mao/Stalin were effective because of a strong central government. This is of course a valid fear of where we are headed, but we are not there yet.

Sorry. I just don't see the argument in "ZOMG its like german death camps! Killing off innocent people! omg omgomgomg"
 
The whole Superdome incident shows their ineptitude. A large space where they can better distribute emergency supplies such as food and water, however they were lacking it.
I doubt it was in their initial plans, but they used it in the situation.

Either way, nefarious or inept, you help to make my point.
 
It's because democracy as it bloats is ineffective. Hitler/Mao/Stalin were effective because of a strong central government. This is of course a valid fear of where we are headed, but we are not there yet.

Sorry. I just don't see the argument in "ZOMG its like german death camps! Killing off innocent people! omg omgomgomg"

lol Hitler was elected in a democracy
 
It's because democracy as it bloats is ineffective. Hitler/Mao/Stalin were effective because of a strong central government. This is of course a valid fear of where we are headed, but we are not there yet.

Sorry. I just don't see the argument in "ZOMG its like german death camps! Killing off innocent people! omg omgomgomg"

Huh? Because we're not there yet? You want to wait until we ARE there?

There isn't necessarily a nefarious plot, as you put it. This may all be done with the best of intentions. That doesn't mean that allowing this to be done is a good idea, or that people should forget or ignore what has happened in the past.

When it comes to government we should assume the worst, not hope for the best.
 
The whole Superdome incident shows their ineptitude. A large space where they can better distribute emergency supplies such as food and water, however they were lacking it.
I doubt it was in their initial plans, but they used it in the situation.

The Superdome is well equipped to handle 80,000+ people(has been the home of more superbowls than any other stadium). They had a FRACTION of that amount there during Katrina, the necessary services were shut off, power, water, toilets. And there was also MINIMAL security, hence the rapes and murders. They allowed the superdome travesty to happen. I have friends that were Baton Rouge PD at the time, who were engaged in rescue missions downtown in flatboats that relayed a lot of shit to me that never made the news. Call it one of the only benefits of being a local New Orleanian. Bodies being tied to street signs, unspoken in the media shoot to kill order being used by the national guard, blackwater, and local PD. Having lived through a FEMA emergency situation I can tell you this, you NEVER want to experience one. You can blame inadequacies of leadership etc, thats bullshit. We can airdrop food/water to Uzbekistan in less than 12 hours but can't get to New Orleans for 3-4 days...?

FEMA is the last organization that will "save" you. They may be touted as such, but they are designed for something else entirely.
 
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lol hitler was elected in a democracy

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Stop viewing the world in a one-way window. Look at things with more neutrality instead of coming to a conclusion right away.

Rephrase: "Look at things the way I do, the only RIGHT way". Repeatedly saying that the government is just an inept bureacracy with only the best of intentions, but with nothing to back that up, is just as bad as the fear mongering.
 
Vessol, the government effectively Godwin'd itself in 2001 with the establishment of a department to "secure the Homeland".

Remember that just a bit to the south in Mexico, the government has declared martial law and suspended civil rights in order to "fight the disease". Think ours isn't going to do the same if it feels justified?

Let's look at recent events here: (crossposting this from another thread)

* With no HHS in place, with the position being taken up by the Homeland Security Secretary, we have a possible pandemic flu outbreak (which last broke out 33 years ago at a military base; in 1976, more people died from government vaccines that from the disease), which conveniently wipes out news of torture memos, government corruption, demands for government accountability, and the financial crisis that will lead to a collapse of the dollar.

Mexico was on the edge of revolution against their government, and now people are huddling in their homes while troops patrol the streets.

* The Homeland Security Secretary has the authority to close down flights and ports to prevent the spread of disease, but doesn't. In fact, people are merrily flying back and forth between here and Mexico. Our borders remain open.

* The President himself goes to Mexico, to the very heart of the outbreak, shakes the hand of a man who dies 24 hours later, comes back home and goes golfing.

* People also won't complain when they see "sick" people being forcibly isolated from the general population in quarantine camps, and they won't question mass deaths, or mass graves, because they can be attributed to viral disease and disease prevention.

* Take into account how many cases have been publicised, and how many of those people have actually died, to warrant this "sudden" plan for mass decontamination, mass observation, mass containment and mass "fatalities disposal" at "safe refuge sites". All of this after having labeled rumors of FEMA camps, plastic coffins and mass graves as "conspiracy theories".

* The threat of infection (note: not actual infection) also stops people traveling, stops them gathering in public (and allows the govt to justify forcibly breaking up public protests), makes people suspicious of one another, allows the President to declare a state of emergency and assume dictatorial powers, makes people accept vaccines without question, and makes people dependent on the federal government for aid.

* The same government which is well known for using crises and fearmongering to further its political agendas, no matter who is in office.

So why would I trust a government that regularly uses crises as a way to further its schemes? And that every time a crisis hits, it does very little to deal with the situation, instead electing to remove more and more civil liberties and expanding its control over the civilian populace.

* The same government that within the last few months, has become more and more openly fascist, moving to merge governmental and corporate powers and issuing legislation to expand its control over food and firearms.

* The same government that has recently released at least two reports classifying millions of its own citizens as "extremists" and "potential terrorists". Look at how that government treats extremists and terrorists when it assumes powers of martial law; look at Gitmo, Bagram and Abu Ghraib.

* The same government (barring a different Administration), with the same operating procedures and structures, sat on its hands during the worst domestic disaster in US history. And when it did get involved, blockaded a city and disarmed its citizens.

* The same government that recently brought a brigade of soldiers home to "help maintain civil order".

* The same government that during the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, has done NOTHING to help people keep their homes and businesses open, instead granting trillions to its corporate partners.

* The same government that over the period of the last few years, has introduced gradually more and more totalitarian legislation, related to disasters and states of emergency, all in the name of national security - which when enacted, will radically change the nature and structure of the US government, effectively establishing a dictatorship in America. For example:

Bush Executive Order No. 13375 said:
Revised List of Quarantinable Communicable Diseases

Ex. Ord. No. 13295, Apr. 4, 2003, 68 F.R. 17255, as amended by Ex. Ord. No. 13375, § 1, Apr. 1, 2005, 70 F.R. 17299, provided:
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 264 (b)), it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Based upon the recommendation of the Secretary of Health and Human Services (the “Secretary”), in consultation with the Surgeon General, and for the purpose of specifying certain communicable diseases for regulations providing for the apprehension, detention, or conditional release of individuals to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of suspected communicable diseases, the following communicable diseases are hereby specified pursuant to section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act:

(a) Cholera; Diphtheria; infectious Tuberculosis; Plague; Smallpox; Yellow Fever; and Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers (Lassa, Marburg, Ebola, Crimean-Congo, South American, and others not yet isolated or named).

(b) Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), which is a disease associated with fever and signs and symptoms of pneumonia or other respiratory illness, is transmitted from person to person predominantly by the aerosolized or droplet route, and, if spread in the population, would have severe public health consequences.

(c) Influenza caused by novel or reemergent influenza viruses that are causing, or have the potential to cause, a pandemic.

Sec. 2. The Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, shall determine whether a particular condition constitutes a communicable disease of the type specified in section 1 of this order.

Sec. 3. The functions of the President under sections 362 and 364(a) of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 265 and 267 (a)) are assigned to the Secretary.

Sec. 4. This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit enforceable at law or equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, entities, officers, employees or agents, or any other person.

Sec. 5. Executive Order 12452 of December 22, 1983, is hereby revoked.

* Then consider Directive 51, which allows the President to shut down the government and assume sole powers of authority during a state of emergency that only needs to be defined with their say so, lasting for an undefined period only decided upon by the President; with Continuity Annexes that still remain secret even from Congress, classified as being pursuant to "national security".

The presidential directive says that, when the president considers an emergency to have occurred, an "Enduring Constitutional Government" comprising "a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President," will take the place of the nation's regular government, without the oversight of Congress.

Forgive me for saying this, but taking all of this into account, I don't feel that its paranoid to assume that the government considers protecting people's Constitutional rights and their physical wellbeing as its highest priorities.

In fact, I'm fairly sure that "continuity of government" is Number One on its list, with the mantra of "national security" as its enabling act. I'm starting to see that phrase as really meaning "state security" - protection of the Government.

Here's the beauty of this from the perspective of government:

They can enact these laws if a) its a legitimate pandemic, b) if its a sporadic outbreak, c) if its a bioweapon attack, d) if they "believe" its going to be any of these things.

Regardless, I think we are hovering on the edge of a very dark time indeed.
 
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