Net Impact Of Delegate Push: Helpful Or Harmful?

[Sally08]

We must be reading different threads/posts

One more point, Sally, our fight is not against Republicans or Republican voters. Our fight is with the Council on Foreign Relations. It's about individualism versus collectivism, liberty versus tyranny.

No matter what it looks like to you on the surface, this is what is really going on.

Tyrants don't give up power, you have to take it away from them.

I sent this link to the Pauls as support for my concerns:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1411115&postcount=12

Shall I create a list of links to posts/threads on both RPF and DP that discuss a "coup" against the *GOP* and apparent hatred for the GOP?

Warranted or not, those posts are *not* what RP wished in terms of "working within the GOP party system".

And those types of posts with hundreds of supportive reply posts are what I am seeing on both RPF and DP.

That means the MSM and GOP are seeing them, as well.

Are we surprised, then, to see the GOP organizing to successfully block even platform reforms?

As an RP supporter, I see those posts with several bordering on "terrorist plots" and have to "wonder".

Just imagine the impact for first time visitors. MSM statements validated?

 

[acptulsa]

Shall I create a list of links to posts/threads on both RPF and DP that discuss a "coup" against the *GOP* and apparent hatred for the GOP?

Warranted or not, those posts are *not* what RP wished in terms of "working within the GOP party system".

And those types of posts with hundreds of supportive reply posts are what I am seeing on both RPF and DP.

That means the MSM and GOP are seeing them, as well.

Are we surprised, then, to see the GOP organizing to successfully block even platform reforms?

As an RP supporter, I see those posts with several bordering on "terrorist plots" and have to "wonder".

Just imagine the impact for first time visitors. MSM statements validated?

How much does Dr. Paul "work within the G.O.P. party system." Quite a bit, yes, but does he vote in lockstep with the neocons? As for posts indicating hatred of the G.O.P., much of what I've seen is hatred of what the G.O.P. has become, not the party itself. Did it ever occur to you that we are actually tapping a vein of discontent? And though I have resisted and tried to discourage the host of 9/11 posts that, for better and worse, have flooded this forum, the fact is that many of those threads 1) demonstrated that we are not of one mind on this, 2) were intelligent enough in spots to make even the most unimaginative scoffer scratch his or her head if they paid enough attention, and 3) really have nothing to do with the delegate push.

Maybe you're right. Maybe if we weren't such a herd of cats, we could have gotten farther. But on the other hand, maybe we wouldn't have because maybe we'd be going along with the herd instead.

Yeah, we could probably stand to do better in some respects. But I don't for a second believe fighting for what's right any way we can is the way to alienate the G.O.P. rank and file. I think that's the way to work yourself into a leadership position in the G.O.P. They have never tended to follow those who give up.

 

[Sally08]

Thank you

I believe she's more worried about the ones that do, rather than all of them doing said actions.

Although I do believe she is painting with a rather wide brush...

Does that mean you believe that some lie and cheat, as well? I apologize if the "brush is too wide" (I did attempt to qualify it with "posters"-)

However, neither I nor any other reader has any means to determine what "percentage" of the total number of RP supporters agree with those posts.

Obviously, the posters take minimal personal responsibility/accountability for the impact of their *posts* and their actions on other people, including RP, and our country as a whole.

They sure don't sound like any change at all from "politics as usual". Just a different group wanting to be "in power".

My threads have been primarily for the *lurkers*, in the hope that some are concerned for similar reasons, particularly if their own political credibility has already been harmed.

It's obvious that the posters have their own "religion" and it is one that is wholly unacceptable to me.

So what actions are appropriate for *me* to take, then?

I do know that there have been more posts in the last week or two questioning whether a change in strategy is required, particularly to use "conservative values" vs. "Ron Paul values".

 

[torchbearer]

My mentor in counseling once told me, "Don't speak to the condition".

A lil' advice for those who are participating in the dementia.
Sally needs something to reply to in order to continue her condition.

If you want to continue having fun at her expense, I guess that is ok.
If anyone thinks there will ever be anything you could ever say that will register inside Sally's brain cell, you are mistaken.

I just have this vision of seekliberty's 500 page long thread of useless crap.
All you have to do is stop talking to the condition. (I know its hard.)

If you need help in doing this because you just can't resist. There is an ignore function on this forum that works great. I'll be happy to help you figure out how to use it.

 

[Sally08]

"fighting for what's right *any way we can*"

How much does Dr. Paul "work within the G.O.P. party system." Quite a bit, yes, but does he vote in lockstep with the neocons?

RP votes in a way consistent with his known beliefs in the Constitutional foundation for our country. How the neocons vote is obviously totally irrelevant to him.

As a GOP member/Congressman, RP definitely works within the GOP party system. If he stepped out of that party, he would not maintain his Congressional seat, which he prioritized over the Presidential campaign.

As for posts indicating hatred of the G.O.P., much of what I've seen is hatred of what the G.O.P. has become, not the party itself. Did it ever occur to you that we are actually tapping a vein of discontent?

Does that rationale for the publicly posted *hatred* (that you posted you have "seen", as well) matter?

That vein of discontent has been there for decades.

The bottom line is whether there will be any more impact this time around. Based on the posts I've seen that try to *beat the person down* vs. "spread the message so that it is accepted", I will be surprised if there's any "movement" left by the general election.

NOTE: However, I also suspect that individuals already involved in the local political parties may well stay involved but in a way where other people's actions won't harm their own situations.

And though I have resisted and tried to discourage the host of 9/11 posts that, for better and worse, have flooded this forum, the fact is that many of those threads 1) demonstrated that we are not of one mind on this, 2) were intelligent enough in spots to make even the most unimaginative scoffer scratch his or her head if they paid enough attention, and 3) really have nothing to do with the delegate push.

How about changing your statement to be an anology for my concerns, if *you* paid enough attention to what I am saying that has *everything* to do with the delegate push?

Maybe you're right. Maybe if we weren't such a herd of cats, we could have gotten farther. But on the other hand, maybe we wouldn't have because maybe we'd be going along with the herd instead.

Where did I say a thing about having "gotten farther"? And the situation is not either/or - there are at least 3 situations:
1. Go along with the herd/do nothing
2. Get involved and earn personal respect to make changes
3. Get involved by lying and cheating, sending 8000 e-mails to a single person, chase columnists on camera, post obscene messages, send illiterate messages to well-known columnists and/or illiterate posts on their news media blogs that may or may not get moderated/deleted.

I fail to see how #3 doesn't qualify as troll behavior to *sabotage* the RP movement, not help it.

Yeah, we could probably stand to do better in some respects. But I don't for a second believe fighting for what's right any way we can is the way to alienate the G.O.P. rank and file.

So, fighting for what's "right" with the wrong actions in #3 above ("any way we can") qualifies as a "win"? I don't think so.

I think that's the way to work yourself into a leadership position in the G.O.P. They have never tended to follow those who give up.

Have you ever held a job in the corporate world? Your boss would no more "reward" your behavior to replace him than the GOP leaders will "reward" your behavior to replace them.

Both organizations will simply show you the door, as we have already seen.

And isn't that exactly the point I'm trying to make?

 

[Sally08]

Obviously, you didn't listen to your mentor!

My mentor in counseling once told me, "Don't speak to the condition".

A lil' advice for those who are participating in the dementia.
Sally needs something to reply to in order to continue her condition.

If you want to continue having fun at her expense, I guess that is ok.
If anyone thinks there will ever be anything you could ever say that will register inside Sally's brain cell, you are mistaken.

I just have this vision of seekliberty's 500 page long thread of useless crap.
All you have to do is stop talking to the condition. (I know its hard.)

If you need help in doing this because you just can't resist. There is an ignore function on this forum that works great. I'll be happy to help you figure out how to use it.

And as I already posted, I'm speaking to the *lurkers* because, just as obviously, I can't say anything that will register inside the brain cells of those doing the damage.

Now, I ask you to answer my question.

This question is my "line in the sand" about your ethical system.

ASSUME NO UNBINDING ACTIONS OCCUR:

If you personally were a national delegate elected by your state, and your state rules are that national delegates are bound to vote for McCain *for the first round*,

what would you do?
1. Vote for McCain as you were elected to do
2. Refuse to vote at all in the first round
3. Defy your state and vote for RP before getting ejected from the convention?

The truly remarkable thing is that each person (except for PepperPete1 who picked #2) I ask this question suddenly leaves the thread! And what does that say?

 

[Sally08]

"the leaders of the GOP because they are our enemies"

OP, this is a necessary fight. The media will paint all of our actions as childish or otherwise, whatever they can get away with and you will not like it. Learn to live with it. The media is part of this fight, too.

According to what I've seen, everything in NV was fair and we were playing by the rules. The situation was painted differently by the media and by the leaders of the GOP because they are our enemies.

Another public post example that proves my point, doesn't it?

And why, then, would you have any expectations that the GOP will "open the door" to allow its public "enemies" to enter?

Are you that politically naive?

 

[LittleLightShining]

Sally, answer pepperpete's questions please...

I've been lurking on this thread and am dying to hear an answer.

 

[MMolloy]

Agent Provocateur!

I haven't left the thread!

And I wasn't elected to vote for anyone.... I'm Unbound

You should be asking the delegates who have been elected as McCain Delegates Your THREE questions... from what I've seen, not one person has yet identified themselves as such!

 

[pepperpete1]

I answered yours...............

now please answer mine.

I've been lurking on this thread and am dying to hear an answer.

 

[Sally08]

Hypothetical question, perhaps?

I haven't left the thread!

And I wasn't elected to vote for anyone.... I'm Unbound

You should be asking the delegates who have been elected as McCain Delegates Your THREE questions... from what I've seen, not one person has yet identified themselves as such!

In future, I will *never* vote for any delegate of any state I live in *without* such an answer.

In fact, I will *never* vote for any "RP Republican" without such an answer.

Is there a reason you *haven't* answered?

It's not a difficult or time-consuming question.

Simply indicate 1, 2 or 3.

 

[Broadlighter]

Another public post example that proves my point, doesn't it?

And why, then, would you have any expectations that the GOP will "open the door" to allow its public "enemies" to enter?

Are you that politically naive?

The GOP did it before. That's how the Neo-cons got in and rose to power, except they did more stealthily.

 

[MMolloy]

Agent Provocateur!!!

Are you totally braindead?

Your question does not apply to me!

 

[Sally08]

PepperPete1 reply #1

Keep on fishing.

Fishing for what? I'm confused.

I post my opinions and my very strong concerns about the damage being done.

The only question I have asked is one whose response gives a clear indication of a person's ethical system or lack thereof.

Is asking someone whether they support RP or not "fishing"?

 

[MMolloy]

And just a little aside to those who would like to know what's really going on with the delegates:

In my congressional district (CD-1 PA) there were exactly 6 delegates on the ballot... you get to pick 3

We had 3 RP delegates and 3 Party delegates (i.e. NOT McCain Delegates)
This was the case in 9 of the 19 congressional districts in PA

 

[dude58677]

In future, I will *never* vote for any delegate of any state I live in *without* such an answer.

In fact, I will *never* vote for any "RP Republican" without such an answer.

Is there a reason you *haven't* answered?

It's not a difficult or time-consuming question.

Simply indicate 1, 2 or 3.

We orginally were nice to the media and the GOP. We figured that Ron Paul's polite way about him was going to get the job done. The media didn't give Ron Paul a fair chance by not asking him enough questions during the debates and always making sure to state he was a long shot candidate regardless of the things he did during the campaign such as his straw poll victories which they called were "flukes" or his debate polls whcih they called it "spamming".

The GOP chairman Michigan and the National GOP set up a petition to have RP eliminated from debates after he made the blowback comments in a debate wit Rudy Guilani. RP supporters (myself included) called the Michigan GOP chairman at his home persistantly to have RP in the debates. The GOP chairman dropped the petition.

There is no rules saying that the leading candidate in the primaries must win the National Convention Nomination and we knew this for more than a year and the GOP is whining about it becuase they didn't expect RP supporters to think this far ahead because this was orignally supposed to be there advantage.

 

[RonPaulGuyEastWA]

Sally08, please answer PepperPete's questions.


Originally Posted by pepperpete1

I ran for national delegate to the convention, but was not elected. Chalk it up to ignorance of the rules. (Not any longer)
Mitt Romney dropping out of the race allowed us to vote for 19 "uncommitted" delegates.
But let's say that I was elected as a McCain delegate. I would abstain.......legal to do.
Would not defy the state's rules as then my vote would not count. No point in doing so.

Now I have some questions for you.
Please answer.

1. Are you a national delegate for your state?

2. Have you even run as a delegate?

3. How about a precinct captain for the campaign?

4. Have you been out in the public trying to ethically educate them as to what the situation is with their current government?

5. Are you personally reminding people that Dr. Ron Paul is still a candidate?

Whether there is blowback from RP getting the GOP nomination or not is irrelevant. If there is we deal with it. Like we have dealt with the GOP's out and out breaking of party rules and state statutes.
We are following the rules and "game plan" of the RNC, and each individual state.
Definitely NOT like the LAGOP who's chairman took it upon himself to extend the qualifying deadline. Did not put out the call to the primary as dictated by the RNC rules, put names of persons as delegates on McCain's slate without their permission, and then at the convention even admitted they broke the rules and it is placed on the record.

Keep on fishing.

 

[Broadlighter]

If I am to understand you correctly, if we were to play nice with the GOP leadership as you seem to think we should and as you seem to think Ron Paul would have us do, then we should take our marching orders from GOP Central and go along with the globalist, neo-con agenda.

How long must we hold our noses? How long must we betray our own principles before we throw off our cloaks and seize control of the party? Once in power, how are we to maintain the movement toward constitutional government, while it continually faces attack by our political opponents on the Left and Right?

We're trying to survive on a ship that's been taken hostage by pirates. We can't be afraid to state our truth in spite of how the MSM wants to portray us.

 

[torchbearer]

We orginally were nice to the media and the GOP. We figured that Ron Paul's polite way about him was going to get the job done. The media didn't give Ron Paul a fair chance by not asking him enough questions during the debates and always making sure to state he was a long shot candidate regardless of the things he did during the campaign such as his straw poll victories which they called were "flukes" or his debate polls whcih they called it "spamming".

The GOP chairman Michigan and the National GOP set up a petition to have RP eliminated from debates after he made the blowback comments in a debate wit Rudy Guilani. RP supporters (myself included) called the Michigan GOP chairman at his home persistantly to have RP in the debates. The GOP chairman dropped the petition.

There is no rules saying that the leading candidate in the primaries must win the National Convention Nomination and we knew this for more than a year and the GOP is whining about it becuase they didn't expect RP supporters to think this far ahead because this was orignally supposed to be there advantage.

Thread winner. And a QFMFT!
But this has already been said 200 times, and I predict the reply by Demented Sally will be the same as it was before, thus repeating the cycle over and over again.

THough you have typed out a perfect piece of factual information, this will have no impact on the condition.

Watch the next 5 pages of the same thing.
What makes these threads incredible in a scientific sense, is that you can actually do a frame by frame like in a movie, and you can see the same cycle of thought.

Make for an interesting thesis.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Are you totally braindead?

Your question does not apply to me!

I think this Sally person doesn't understand the difference between a bound and unbound delegate and that lots of states we are talking about have unbound delegates. The whole point of unbound delegates is to make sure people like McCain don't get in!!!