Nation Builder due diligence

[jacobin]

The National Rifle's Association is a 501(c)(4) and apparently takes foreign donations.

Foreign corporations can create U.S. subsidiaries to donate to PACs and soft money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)#501.28c.29.284.29

Can you explain this? I'm not attacking anyone that didn't attack me first.

And I never said anything about foreign contributors, is this what we are talking about or our credibility?

Can everyone post their Meetup pages so we can know who we are talking to?

 

[jacobin]

People who spuriously and ignorantly make baseless accusations I don't respond to well. Just have your facts straight, be polite, rational and do something to effect change.

Sorry, I couldn't respond faster, I was on the phone with a State Legislator who just called me and I was drafting him as an RNC candidate at our State Convention.

What did everyone else do today?

 

[Mark]

The National Rifle's Association is a 501(c)(4) and apparently takes foreign donations.

Foreign corporations can create U.S. subsidiaries to donate to PACs and soft money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)#501.28c.29.284.29

Can you explain this? I'm not attacking anyone that didn't attack me first.

And I never said anything about foreign contributors, is this what we are talking about or our credibility?

Can everyone post their Meetup pages so we can know who we are talking to?

If you'll look at what I quoted, that's what I was responding to:

"Nation Builder is organizing as a 501(c)(4). I will have to ask the attorney regarding foreign donations.
If not, surely we can have foreign donors support a 501(c)(3) that is general education."

One thing that's confusing is you say both 501(c)4 and 501(c)3, but, given you've been talking about a (c)4, that's mainly what I was talking about.

"foreign donors" == non U.S. Citizens, and they are prohibited from influencing U.S. Elections.

I'm not talking about about a foreign Corp creating a subsidiarity, I'm talking about individual people donating money.


Dude, I incorporated a Religious 501(c)3 by myself almost 10 years ago without the aid of the Internet.

I filled out the paperwork on a Wednesday, and by Friday I walked out of the Department of Revenue with Tax-Exempt Status.

It's easy to start a Corporation, the hard part is deciding which type you want to start, and determining the regulations governing it.


It's not going to do you any good for me to explain it all to you,
you need to start searching the FEC and IRS and the Internet as a whole to teach yourself.

But here's a start:

==================

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

One section:

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly.

It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them.

Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

===================
[h2]Tax Information for Political Organizations[/h2]
http://www.irs.gov/charities/political/index.html

====================

PARTY MISUSE OF SOFT MONEY TO PAY FOR ISSUE ADS RESULTS IN $280,000 CIVIL PENALTY

http://www.fec.gov/press/press2004/20040409murs.html

====================

http://www.fecwatch.org/law/court/mcconnelltable.asp

McConnell v. FEC

Summary of the Supreme Court's decision​

December 10, 2003 | The Supreme Court has issued a decision in McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, the landmark legal case challenging the constitutionality of the new McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, formally known as the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 ("BCRA").​

The table below summarizes the Court's decisions on the constitutionality of the major components of BCRA.

===================


I've got a TON of links that I've found by researching - I suggest you do the same thoroughly before asking people for money.


You're "putting the cart before the horse" here.

You're asking people to give you a lot of money for something that's basically just an idea.

Get your act together first, THEN proceed with the funding requests.


There's too many people here asking people to give them a LOT of money to start their own personal company.

If you want to go to Texas to help and need money to do so, fine, start a chipin,

but if you want people to fund your Corporation startup costs for you, no thanks.


For goodness sakes, you're asking for money to do something, and then asking ME to explain to you what you're doing.

.

 

[jacobin]

Thanks for explaining that. But nothing you are talking about quantifies someone saying "scam". There is two issues here, due diligence on our credibility and if we are following the IRS's rules. And I greatly appreciate the IRS-supporters who informing us that we may be bending a private company's collection department's voluntary and ambiguous rules over us.

I also never said I would accept a foreign donation. I would first see if it is allowed. And I have read a lot of the FEC and 501 information.

 

[jacobin]

How can foreign nationals donate to the NRA if it is a 501(c)(4)?

How can you get tax exempt status so quick?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


501(c)(4) exemptions are given to civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees, the membership of which is limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.[7] 501(c)(4) organizations differ from 501(c)(3) in that they are permitted to lobby for legislation.

The exemption applies so long as "...no part of the net earnings of such entity inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual."

Prominent 501(c)(4) organizations

* AARP
* National Rifle Association
* MoveOn.org
* League of Conservation Voters
* Christian Coalition

Obtaining 501(c)(3) status

Some organizations automatically acquire 501(c)(3) status upon filing of proper organizational documents (e.g., articles of incorporation as a church), at least until annual income exceeds a statutory threshold. Others will not receive 501(c)(3) status until they file an application and supporting documentation to the IRS and have a certification letter issued. The IRS will examine the application and may request further financial and organization information prior to granting the 501(c)(3) status. To cover donations made before the letter is issued, the regulations require prompt filing of the application after organization, or after an existing organization satisfies the criteria for 501(c)(3), or after exceeding the income threshold.

 

[jacobin]

Many 501(c)(3) organizations are part of nonprofit "conglomerates," having organizational control relationships with other nonprofit organizations. A 501(c)(4) advocacy organization may create a 501(c)(3) that operates solely for "educational" purposes. The League of Women Voters advocates positions on issues and evaluates candidates as a 501(c)(4) and uses its 501(c)(3) arm to provide nonpartisan voter information. A 501(c)(6) business league may create a 501(c)(3) arm to conduct research related to the business focus of the parent organization.

 

[jacobin]

Can you show me the law that says a foreign national cannot donate to a 501(c)(4)?

It says:

"Despite the general prohibition on foreign national contributions and donations, foreign nationals may lawfully engage in political activity that is not connected with any election to political office at the federal, state, or local levels. The FEC has clarified such activity with respect to individuals' activities."

I don't know how that is defined or if 501(c)(4)s are included but if we are advocating one issue as a 501(c)(4) such as the Constitution or the Rule of Law, then it seems that foreign nationals can donate. I'm not sure if providing grassroots support to both Democrats and Republicans and anyone who supports the Constitution counts as "electioneering communications" (tv/radio) or official support. I know the Christian Coalition as a 501(c)(4) was sued by the Government for promoting candidates indirectly through their voter guides.

See:

"In Advisory Opinion 1989-32, the Commission concluded that although foreign nationals could make disbursements solely to influence ballot issues, a foreign national could not contribute to a ballot committee that had coordinated its efforts with a nonfederal candidate's re-election campaign."

"In Advisory Opinion 1984-41, the Commission allowed a foreign national to underwrite the broadcast of apolitical ads that attempted to expose the alleged political bias of the media. The Commission found that these ads were not election influencing because they did not mention candidates, political offices, political parties, incumbent federal officeholders or any past or future election."

I have to look into "ballot committee" and the definition of "coordinated". Also does that mean they can contribute to a federal candidate or a nonfederal candidate's first time election campaign? Not quite clear.

And it seems 501(c)(4)s can have the same "organizational control relationships" as an affiliated 501(c)(3). And foreign nationals can obviously donate to a 501(c)(3).

So please show me the law that says if a 501(c)(4) advocates the Constitution that we can't accept a foreign donation? Perhaps we need to drop the GOP-angle and be nonpartisan to qualify but this is a question for our attorney.

This kind of felt like an IRS audit but hopefully it is over.

Again, for credibility we are well known. For IRS-compliance, we may not be up the Federal Government's standard and we sincerely apologize.

 

[Mark]

Thanks for explaining that. But nothing you are talking about quantifies someone saying "scam". There is two issues here, due diligence on our credibility and if we are following the IRS's rules. And I greatly appreciate the IRS-supporters who informing us that we may be bending a private company's collection department's voluntary and ambiguous rules over us.

I also never said I would accept a foreign donation. I would first see if it is allowed. And I have read a lot of the FEC and 501 information.

The "scam" part come from the Whois info that has the registrant's name as "Nation Builder" and an incomplete phone number.

That could be anyone, I found the names and meetups later

This dude mentioned foreign donations in the other thread:

Originally Posted by smokey1sc
Not a problem. We will accept donations from every country, continent and even Antarctica!!!

And I greatly appreciate the IRS-supporters who informing us that we may be bending a private company's collection department's voluntary and ambiguous rules over us.

That kind of attitude will get you nowhere dude.

Calling someone an "IRS -supporter" because they pointed out something that might keep you from being fined and/or put in jail
is telling of your capability to do anything fruitful in this endeavor.

You're on your own as far as I'm concerned. I tried to help, now I'm out thanks to that.

 

[constituent]

Many 501(c)(3) organizations are part of nonprofit "conglomerates," having organizational control relationships with other nonprofit organizations. A 501(c)(4) advocacy organization may create a 501(c)(3) that operates solely for "educational" purposes. The League of Women Voters advocates positions on issues and evaluates candidates as a 501(c)(4) and uses its 501(c)(3) arm to provide nonpartisan voter information. A 501(c)(6) business league may create a 501(c)(3) arm to conduct research related to the business focus of the parent organization.

there's a lesson in there somewhere.

irs, lol.

 

[jacobin]

The WHOIS information was first like that because we were going to get a mail box location in Westminster which is right next to Thornton. I like Westminster better, that's why I wanted the address there. I didn't put the right #888 number because I didn't want sales calls and autodials from payphones etc hitting my #888 number. But it is now accurate.

And the accurate information was on the website from day 1, but no one bothered to call -- they were too busy typing misinformed posts.

I never asked for IRS advice. People were saying SCAM and now you mix that into this foreign national and IRS issue. I already pointed out the fallacy of saying "If you aren't a 501c, you are a scam".

I mean really, how would you respond if you volunteer 40+ hours a week on something that is positive and then someone who hasn't done research, won't bother to call you when you invite them to and so forth start saying your organization is a scam?

Yes, you prevented the FEC from suing me or IRS from auditing me -- I guess.

You still haven't pointed out the law that says a foreign national can't donate to a 501(c)(4) like the NRA! I will know the answer tomorrow and be sure to let you know since you can't provide a source yet.

I'm sorry if you can't see how someone would be offended by the scam remarks but honestly I'm busy, very busy, and if you want to help take back the GOP then please do. Otherwise, do whatever you believe is effective.

 

[jacobin]

For the record:

No one posted their Meetup page, yet someone posted our's.

No one answered any of my questions about what they've done to get RP elected.

No one proved by a source that accepting donations to organize a 501(c)(4) or that accepting foreign contributors for a 501(c)(4) is illegal by the IRS or FEC rules. Or that it is a "scam".

Please retract your statements until you can substantiate them, and by all means this is a due diligence thread so for anyone to take anybody's word seriously they should post their public Meetup profile.

 

[amy31416]

For the record:

1. I am always suspicious of new posters cropping up in the middle of the night when I'm in the throes of insomnia-inspired research into all things political and/or scientific.

2. I become more suspicious when there is dialogue from two brand-new posters going back and forth saying how wonderful this great new site is!

3. "You are so wonderful to start this site, I just donated $100! Hey look, you've had several other patriotic donors jumping on this bandwagon! This is so great for the cause of liberty (lip service, BS, lip service) DONATE PEOPLE!" (Not verbatim, but captures the spirit of the exchange that I read.)

4. Your irritation at being questioned is more fodder for the flame of distrust. We are the customers and have every right to thoroughly inspect before we buy. If we can't look prior to purchase, we ain't gonna buy it, chief.

5. It actually is quite possible that you are scammers. Why not? The burden of proof is on your end, it is our duty to question you and you should be prepared for that if you are going to ask us for money. I can think like a criminal with the best of them. . .if you're looking to make money, know that this campaign has raised tremendous amounts of money and has a crazy good grassroots, it makes sense that scammers would come here and try, under the guise of promoting another project, ask for money. We would be stupid not to thoroughly question everything. Especially two new posters, coming here this late in the game and asking for money, stating that anyone can donate (which is not true under FEC laws), and acting somewhat hostile towards those asking questions.

In conclusion, you guys are either obvious scammers, or very ill-equipped to truly support this campaign.

 

[Sandra]

You have all the marks of scammers. Textbook! You haven't answered a single question but posed rhetorically snide questions at your "customer" base. You need to get it together, buddy, or they'll put your arse in jail. I'm looking forward to those lawyers you're gonna sic on me.

 

[pacelli]

For the record:

No one posted their Meetup page, yet someone posted our's.

No one answered any of my questions about what they've done to get RP elected.

No one proved by a source that accepting donations to organize a 501(c)(4) or that accepting foreign contributors for a 501(c)(4) is illegal by the IRS or FEC rules. Or that it is a "scam".

Please retract your statements until you can substantiate them, and by all means this is a due diligence thread so for anyone to take anybody's word seriously they should post their public Meetup profile.

Kind of an interesting strategy for trying to get people to contribute: Demand their personal information, demand information about the IRS / FEC, and demand people to retract their statements because this is a due diligence thread.

News flash-- this is a due diligence thread about YOUR PROJECT -- not YOUR POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS.

Your potential customers have no responsibility to answer your questions about what they have done to get RP elected. Isn't that what your company is designed to do? Nobody on these forums have any responsibility to answer your questions. You decided to advertise here, don't put the forum on the defensive.

- Establish a Call Center
- Campaign for State and
National Candidates
- Build an advanced online Voter-tracking system
- Elect activists to the State Central Commitees and Republican National Committee (RNC)

-Call4Paul already exists.

-State and national campaigns already exist and are already being funded.

-What is the model for the voter-tracking system? Sounds like big brother to me.

-How is the money contributed going to elect activists to state and national republican committees?


Did the Liberty Political Advertising (the blimp company) deal with this level of scrutiny? No, they didn't. They dealt with more scrutiny than this thread could ever muster. Not ONCE did Katharine demand us to prove squat, even in the midst of harsh accusations. If you think the water is hot now, wait until you have some legal documents to back up your concept.

 

[jacobin]

For the record:

1. I am always suspicious of new posters cropping up in the middle of the night when I'm in the throes of insomnia-inspired research into all things political and/or scientific.

2. I become more suspicious when there is dialogue from two brand-new posters going back and forth saying how wonderful this great new site is!

3. "You are so wonderful to start this site, I just donated $100! Hey look, you've had several other patriotic donors jumping on this bandwagon! This is so great for the cause of liberty (lip service, BS, lip service) DONATE PEOPLE!" (Not verbatim, but captures the spirit of the exchange that I read.)

4. Your irritation at being questioned is more fodder for the flame of distrust. We are the customers and have every right to thoroughly inspect before we buy. If we can't look prior to purchase, we ain't gonna buy it, chief.

5. It actually is quite possible that you are scammers. Why not? The burden of proof is on your end, it is our duty to question you and you should be prepared for that if you are going to ask us for money. I can think like a criminal with the best of them. . .if you're looking to make money, know that this campaign has raised tremendous amounts of money and has a crazy good grassroots, it makes sense that scammers would come here and try, under the guise of promoting another project, ask for money. We would be stupid not to thoroughly question everything. Especially two new posters, coming here this late in the game and asking for money, stating that anyone can donate (which is not true under FEC laws), and acting somewhat hostile towards those asking questions.

In conclusion, you guys are either obvious scammers, or very ill-equipped to truly support this campaign.

1. My Join Date: Aug 2007, Your Join Date: Nov 2007

3. I never once wrote anything like that.

4. Ask questions, but don't make ignorant statements like if you aren't registered as 501(c) then it is a scam. Big difference between asking questions and being accusatory. (I know you did not make that statement)

5. Okay. Except for the hundreds of people that know me. And please point out the law that says a foreign national can't donate to a 501(c)(4).

 

[jacobin]

Kind of an interesting strategy for trying to get people to contribute: Demand their personal information, demand information about the IRS / FEC, and demand people to retract their statements because this is a due diligence thread.

News flash-- this is a due diligence thread about YOUR PROJECT -- not YOUR POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS.

Your potential customers have no responsibility to answer your questions about what they have done to get RP elected. Isn't that what your company is designed to do? Nobody on these forums have any responsibility to answer your questions. You decided to advertise here, don't put the forum on the defensive.

Demand what? Follow the comments. They said scam and starting talking about the IRS/FEC regulations. Please just show me the law...

People were questioning my credibility -- so I was asking who they were. It was a fair question. This is why people dislike the Internet because people can hide behind anonymous names and scream "SCAM SCAM SCAM" but not have one shred of evidence or any courage to stand up and say who they are.

-Call4Paul already exists.

-State and national campaigns already exist and are already being funded.

-What is the model for the voter-tracking system? Sounds like big brother to me.

-How is the money contributed going to elect activists to state and national republican committees?

Did the Liberty Political Advertising (the blimp company) deal with this level of scrutiny? No, they didn't. They dealt with more scrutiny than this thread could ever muster. Not ONCE did Katharine demand us to prove squat, even in the midst of harsh accusations. If you think the water is hot now, wait until you have some legal documents to back up your concept.

You are severely mistaken on a several issues. If you want, call me and we can discuss this civilly. I could privately tell you via message but I'm not sure you'd repost it publicly.

I mean would it matter if I said I was working with RP2008 and several other national campaigns, I have an RP2008 cell phone, I worked in the Denver office...probably not huh? Because I was out canvassing, making phone calls and hosting RP-events and not on the Internet developing an "online track record".

I've spoke to Bryan -- if anyone wants to ask me a question, call me.

This is all sort of unbelievable, especially for those of us that cherish logic, reason and rational thought because if you followed these threads you would easily see what we're doing and who we are.

 

[jacobin]

-Call4Paul already exists.

-State and national campaigns already exist and are already being funded.

-What is the model for the voter-tracking system? Sounds like big brother to me.

-How is the money contributed going to elect activists to state and national republican committees?

Did the Liberty Political Advertising (the blimp company) deal with this level of scrutiny? No, they didn't. They dealt with more scrutiny than this thread could ever muster. Not ONCE did Katharine demand us to prove squat, even in the midst of harsh accusations. If you think the water is hot now, wait until you have some legal documents to back up your concept.

This is quite hilarious on many levels. Only if you knew what you were talking about would you see how unbelievably ironic what you said is!

I'm shutting everything down, apparently other people are doing everything and we don't need to do anything.

 

[jacobin]

You have all the marks of scammers. Textbook! You haven't answered a single question but posed rhetorically snide questions at your "customer" base. You need to get it together, buddy, or they'll put your arse in jail. I'm looking forward to those lawyers you're gonna sic on me.

Please provide the textbook.

I never said I'd sic lawyers on you, I said I'd ask the attorney the law on the 501(c)(4) issue. Please read what I write, don't just imagine it.

And please talk to Bryan and I can refer you to others. If you continue your rude and offensive posts, I'd hope Bryan bans you from RonPaulForums.

What questions have I not answered? Ask them, I will answer them.

 

[pacelli]

Demand what? Follow the comments. They said scam and starting talking about the IRS/FEC regulations. Please just show me the law...

I don't work for you.

 

[jacobin]

-Call4Paul already exists.

-State and national campaigns already exist and are already being funded.

-What is the model for the voter-tracking system? Sounds like big brother to me.

-How is the money contributed going to elect activists to state and national republican committees?

I will answer some of this but there's much more I don't want to publicly say yet.

- First we want to expand the Call4Paul to Colorado and other areas. Plus I've brought Call4Paul to certain National Campaigns because the cost is so low.

- We are not creating campaigns or funding any. If we were funding campaigns we'd be organizing a PAC. There are a lot of national campaigns and many more state campaigns that have no grassroots support. No fundraising, no signs, no canvassing, no mailers, no autodials, etc.

- I can't comment directly on the Voter-tracking system but it is nothing like you think. In fact, it won Dr. Paul 2nd place in NV and was officially approved by the Ron Paul 2008 Campaign.

- For the RNC, we host State Delegate parties and introduce them to our candidate then. We also send out mailers. The State Delegates vote for 2 spots at the Colorado State Convention and it could cost several thousand dollars to market our RNC Jeffersonian Republicans to the 3,000 State Delegates. For State Central Committee, it is 2009 in Colorado but I believe this year for California and others.

Now the theories and comments are interesting and I appreciate the legitimate concern, but if you have any real questions/issues please contact me at the 888 number listed. I don't have time to check this thread but will be more than happy to come back and post any information that shows transparency.

It is humorous to me on one level since in the midst of all my work in a day, talking to elected politicians or campaigns running for national office or attending 3-5 events a week and otherwise dedicating nearly my entire life to REPLACING the management of the GOP -- it's just funny so many people would question me.

I'd bet 500 people know who I am in Colorado and the address listed on the website is my partner's HOUSE. Come by if you'd like (please call first).