My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

[onlyrp]

Sheesh, I have several pieces of new furniture, eat out multiple times every weekend, have internet, cell phone, etc. And I wonder where my money goes, I guess that's it.

OP is MIA. And the thread lives on.

 

[tttppp]

I think if you don't plan on tipping you should tell the server so they can make sure not to bust their ass for you. They'll get you when they get you and if you don't like it you can take your ass home and get your own damn food. Ignore a customer who wants your attention? HAHAHAHA You get your apron pulled on, you get tripped, they come up and get in your face... yeah. Not everybody is as basic as you are in desire for service. I had someone follow me into the bathroom once to tell me they needed a refill right away. I honestly don't think you've ever worked a day in serving the public else you would have a VERY different view.
And yes, I give my friends gas money for giving me a ride. Never been to a dinner party. I'm poor and so are my friends, so that kinda high falutin' stuff doesn't exist around these parts. And I do ask if I can use the bathroom if I'm not a customer, or I purchase something like a candy bar or something when I come out.
Can I ask what the "basic legal minimum" is?

Edited to add: If servers only made $3/hr and no tips, there would be no restaurants because no one would work for that. NO ONE. You can make better money getting welfare. And if you want homeless people serving your food. Have at it. And how Africans could fly over to work and then back home again off $3/hr seems incredibly... impossible.

I was never a waiter but did work in the service industry. Our employees did a better job than any waiter I've seen, and they did it for just minimum wage. Its called management. If restaurant owners want waiters to do their job, they need to do a better job managing their business, and stop relying on customers to do their job for them.

 

[AceNZ]

I don't consider writing down my order and delivering my order from the kitchen "busting my ass" and I wouldn't ask for more than that.

If you think that's all servers normally do, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[onlyrp]

If you think that's all servers normally do, you are sorely mistaken.

That's all they do for me, and that's all I ask them to do, plus work the register.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

A lot of commenters seem to be missing the bigger point here. Even if it is not quite literally true that OP is worse off than those who make $20K, it is still ludicrous that it is even close. There's not a whole lot of incentive to 'move up', work hard and make a decent middle class income, if your real gains are partly eaten up by taxes and partly nonexistent because the government would have given you all that stuff for free anyway. I mean, suppose you make the case that OP is actually $10K per year better off (in some sense), rather than worse off, compared to those with a $20K income... that still means that the vast majority of the gains are completely eaten by government.

the point here is that incentives are being stripped away from our society. the healthcare aspect is a big part of this. essentially one family is earning 500% of what the other family is earning, yet their lifestyles are perceptibly comparable. this is hardly the only example of the problem. even if OP budgeted in accordance with the "advice" given in this thread, the problem isn't solved, its only a little less obvious. take a guess at what happens to societies that have shrinking incentives to accumulate wealth?

Production drops and everybody suffers.

It is interesting that many people are suggesting the OP cut back the tithe, when the better answer is to cut back the taxes - which is exactly what he's trying to do by supporting Dr. Paul.

Finally, someone gets it. I was wondering if I was on the right forum, after reading some of the responses. "He just wants to diss the poor" is about what they say at TNR also, about a similar article:

http://www.tnr.com/article/82962/conservatives-economic-chart-fox-de-rugy

I agree, but the issue is somewhat complex. We're stuck in a market where people are forced to pay extraordinary fees for college education. It's a classic "prisoner's dilemma" economics issue. The government needs to get rid of student loan guarantees completely. All they do is perpetuate a costly, inefficient, and archaic education system. One person can't buck the system by himself, though.

Like the other guy said, people are nitpicking at the details and not giving enough attention to the larger issue raised. Same with the Emmerich article picked apart by TNR.

They were talking off the tops of their heads, but what they said is still largely true, or we wouldn't be in this forum.

I'd love to see a real comparison between the two situations. Exactly how much better off is someone who makes $80,000, versus someone who makes $20,000, or $0?

It's definitely not by $60,000 or $80,000, correct? So how much more is it?

The OP has basically been conscripted into involuntary servitude to nameless/faceless others from January through the middle of April. It's starting to make sense to me now why the IRS has a mid-April filing deadline.

+++++++++++++++++1

I like your point here. God is all-powerful and money doesn't really serve any heavenly purpose. The interesting thing is that the Catholic church, which requires tithing, is much like the government in that it fools many people into believing the establishment to which they are donating actually needs the money when it is way too big to begin with. If you look at the history of how the Catholic church was tied to the state in the past, it makes a lot of sense. The Catholic church has fostered a dependence of its constituents on the church so that they can thrive from other people's money.

extra ++++++++1



Again, of course, it could be said that OP could perhaps manage his finances better but that shouldn't be the point, the point is that he & his wife are 5 times more productive (100000:20000) compared to those other families & yet he & his wife are far from enjoying 5 times the living standard, which as has been said, must get us to question the system more than questioning OP's finances; agreed, OP went a little overboard in a hyperbolic sense in saying that "they're living BETTER than me" but the fact that the difference between their lifestyles is not even close to 5:1 should be alarming, we should be more irate about the gross misapplication of resources that are being STOLEN from OP than his finances

How he manages his finances, how much he gives to Church is his business but the amount of money that's sucked out of him (& millions of us) is the problem & it's NOT just about the income tax, people think about it right away because it's "visible" but there's much much more that people pay indirectly through corporate-taxes & others which are simply passed on to the people & no group, government or any other, should be able to STEAL all that money from people who've earned through contracts of mutual consent & then government uses a little bit of that money to BUY VOTES by fostering socialism & gobbles up most of the rest without a trace, that's the problem & that's what we should be focusing on

As has been said before, blaming OP for taking the student-loan is justifiable to a degree BUT let's not overlook the government's role in causing the prices of education to skyrocket, if it wasn't for government, may be he would still have been in debt but it would be much less & OP would have more disposable income as he should & for that, government must share the blame.

 

[Ireland4Liberty]

You made a hefty investment for potential future income increases you're paying for now.

THIS. The difference between you and them is that you are going somewhere.

 

[LBennett76]

I was never a waiter but did work in the service industry. Our employees did a better job than any waiter I've seen, and they did it for just minimum wage. Its called management. If restaurant owners want waiters to do their job, they need to do a better job managing their business, and stop relying on customers to do their job for them.

They've never seen how hard I worked then. When you're working 6 tables at once and doing all the stuff for them (drinks, salad, bread, soup, order taking, food bringing, refills) as well as your behind the counter duties (stocking glasses, wrapping silverware, filling salad cases, stocking everything else) and then bussing and cleaning your own tables, it would get HECTIC. Then you have to find time to turn ring the order up to give them the check which takes several minutes using the touchscreen computer. All while two tables are waving glasses for refills, one's food is up, one wants dessert, and you just got sat a new table that you've got to take silverware and get their drink order. Anyone who think all waitstaff does is take their order and bring them food has no clue what actually goes on in a restaurant. And I absolutely LOVED that job. Good exercise and decent money for a single mom (no welfare) who was also going to college at the same time.
Currently I work 2 jobs and 1 of them is working minimum wage ($7.70/hr) at Wendy's. I bust my ass at that job too. I get pissed off because I end up doing twice the work of people half my age because they're all a bunch of lazy entitled little snots who are compelled to text every 5 seconds... and I still get paid exactly the same as them. There are no raises because our store is a small low profit store. Become a shift manager and you get a whopping $.70 an hour more. I was a manger until I realized how absolutely worthless that was.
There have been people who've lost their jobs in the steel industry and the coal mines who've come in to work at Wendy's and quit within a few weeks because they couldn't hack it. It wasn't that it was beneath them, they just couldn't keep up and remember the list of 20some things that were their responsibilities. And honestly, it really is sucky thankless job.

 

[onlyrp]

Again, of course, it could be said that OP could perhaps manage his finances better but that shouldn't be the point, the point is that he & his wife are 5 times more productive (100000:20000) compared to those other families & yet he & his wife are far from enjoying 5 times the living standard, which as has been said, must get us to question the system more than questioning OP's finances; agreed, OP went a little overboard in a hyperbolic sense in saying that "they're living BETTER than me" but the fact that the difference between their lifestyles is not even close to 5:1 should be alarming, we should be more irate about the gross misapplication of resources that are being STOLEN from OP than his finances

Wrong, they are living quite close to 5x better than them. They get to donate to church, they have student loans to pay. They don't have child expenses like their $20,000 counterparts do. That's a good 3-4x better if you ask me.

 

[onlyrp]

They've never seen how hard I worked then. When you're working 6 tables at once and doing all the stuff for them (drinks, salad, bread, soup, order taking, food bringing, refills) as well as your behind the counter duties (stocking glasses, wrapping silverware, filling salad cases, stocking everything else) and then bussing and cleaning your own tables, it would get HECTIC.

Why don't they just hire another person? It's only gonna be $3 an hour for 3 tables.

Then you have to find time to turn ring the order up to give them the check which takes several minutes using the touchscreen computer. All while two tables are waving glasses for refills, one's food is up, one wants dessert, and you just got sat a new table that you've got to take silverware and get their drink order. Anyone who think all waitstaff does is take their order and bring them food has no clue what actually goes on in a restaurant. And I absolutely LOVED that job. Good exercise and decent money for a single mom (no welfare) who was also going to college at the same time.

All you said was just that, take your order, bring your food, refills, and cash register/computer. Just more frequent and hectic. WOW, I didn't imagine you had to place utensils on the table, that's SLAVERY!

Currently I work 2 jobs and 1 of them is working minimum wage ($7.70/hr) at Wendy's. I bust my ass at that job too. I get pissed off because I end up doing twice the work of people half my age because they're all a bunch of lazy entitled little snots who are compelled to text every 5 seconds... and I still get paid exactly the same as them.

That's bad management, but don't bust your ass if you think you can get away with it.

There are no raises because our store is a small low profit store. Become a shift manager and you get a whopping $.70 an hour more. I was a manger until I realized how absolutely worthless that was.

So you live and learn. Sounds like you can perfectly understand why you're not given a raise, but you don't when your customers are "low profit consumers".

There have been people who've lost their jobs in the steel industry and the coal mines who've come in to work at Wendy's and quit within a few weeks because they couldn't hack it. It wasn't that it was beneath them, they just couldn't keep up and remember the list of 20some things that were their responsibilities. And honestly, it really is sucky thankless job.

But you get a guaranteed pay, that's the tradeoff, and the pay is only as good as t he market allows.

 

[LBennett76]

Maybe you don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a waitress to get to you, but most people want you at their table within one minute to get their drink order. If you're not there in 5, they'll either go complain or they'll get up and leave. And silverware... yeah you gotta go back in the back and pester the dishwasher to collect it and run it through. Half the time, you have to separate it and put it through yourself and then rack it up separating the spoons, knives, and forks, then take it to the front and put it in the bins, and then wrap it all while at the same time 2 new tables were just sat, foods up for 2 tables, one wants dessert and another wants a check. Then you go to get the drink order, come back to find there's no glasses, so then you gotta go back make sure they've been run through the dishwasher and then carry the 30lb container to the front. In that time, one of your tables is pissed because they're food is STILL sitting in the window and the other's dessert order is up. It's not this lazy slacker kind of job that you think it is. NO ONE, even homeless people would or could do it for $3/hr. And if you want some toothless alcoholic with hepatitis serving your food, good luck.

Besides I think waiting tables is much more a free market principle. Instead of a guaranteed government mandated minimum wage, you get what you earn. You do a good job, you get paid more. And you also take the risk of getting stiffed. All part of the job.

I have to wonder though how much of other people's spit (or other gross thing) you've eaten because there are some nasty servers out there. If you're a known non-tipper, there are those who will stoop to that.

 

[onlyrp]

Maybe you don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a waitress to get to you, but most people want you at their table within one minute to get their drink order. If you're not there in 5, they'll either go complain or they'll get up and leave. And silverware... yeah you gotta go back in the back and pester the dishwasher to collect it and run it through. Half the time, you have to separate it and put it through yourself and then rack it up separating the spoons, knives, and forks, then take it to the front and put it in the bins, and then wrap it all while at the same time 2 new tables were just sat, foods up for 2 tables, one wants dessert and another wants a check. Then you go to get the drink order, come back to find there's no glasses, so then you gotta go back make sure they've been run through the dishwasher and then carry the 30lb container to the front. In that time, one of your tables is pissed because they're food is STILL sitting in the window and the other's dessert order is up. It's not this lazy slacker kind of job that you think it is. NO ONE, even homeless people would or could do it for $3/hr. And if you want some toothless alcoholic with hepatitis serving your food, good luck.

Besides I think waiting tables is much more a free market principle. Instead of a guaranteed government mandated minimum wage, you get what you earn. You do a good job, you get paid more. And you also take the risk of getting stiffed. All part of the job.

I have to wonder though how much of other people's spit (or other gross thing) you've eaten because there are some nasty servers out there. If you're a known non-tipper, there are those who will stoop to that.

5 minutes is fine with me, if they think that's too much, I wouldn't go there again, I wouldn't quite get up and leave. As for utensils, the fact your establishment can't afford or isn't willing to have them prepared ahead of the day, that you'd even have such problems, says a lot about their cost vs benefit analytical ability. I never said it's lazy slacker, but labor does not equal value either. Like you said, you're only paid $3 an hour, so what's wrong with having another person split your work? Are you afraid you'd not make enough tips?

I've not gotten sick before, so whatever I eaten hasn't hurt me yet.

 

[tttppp]

They've never seen how hard I worked then. When you're working 6 tables at once and doing all the stuff for them (drinks, salad, bread, soup, order taking, food bringing, refills) as well as your behind the counter duties (stocking glasses, wrapping silverware, filling salad cases, stocking everything else) and then bussing and cleaning your own tables, it would get HECTIC. Then you have to find time to turn ring the order up to give them the check which takes several minutes using the touchscreen computer. All while two tables are waving glasses for refills, one's food is up, one wants dessert, and you just got sat a new table that you've got to take silverware and get their drink order. Anyone who think all waitstaff does is take their order and bring them food has no clue what actually goes on in a restaurant. And I absolutely LOVED that job. Good exercise and decent money for a single mom (no welfare) who was also going to college at the same time.
Currently I work 2 jobs and 1 of them is working minimum wage ($7.70/hr) at Wendy's. I bust my ass at that job too. I get pissed off because I end up doing twice the work of people half my age because they're all a bunch of lazy entitled little snots who are compelled to text every 5 seconds... and I still get paid exactly the same as them. There are no raises because our store is a small low profit store. Become a shift manager and you get a whopping $.70 an hour more. I was a manger until I realized how absolutely worthless that was.
There have been people who've lost their jobs in the steel industry and the coal mines who've come in to work at Wendy's and quit within a few weeks because they couldn't hack it. It wasn't that it was beneath them, they just couldn't keep up and remember the list of 20some things that were their responsibilities. And honestly, it really is sucky thankless job.

I never said waiters don't work hard. I just said I haven't seen a waiter better than the staff I used to run. I'm not bashing waiters, I'm bashing the managers of the restaurants for not managing their wait staff properly. You don't need a system of tips to manage your wait staff. Tips don't manage waiters, the restaurant owners do.

 

[tttppp]

Maybe you don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a waitress to get to you, but most people want you at their table within one minute to get their drink order. If you're not there in 5, they'll either go complain or they'll get up and leave. And silverware... yeah you gotta go back in the back and pester the dishwasher to collect it and run it through. Half the time, you have to separate it and put it through yourself and then rack it up separating the spoons, knives, and forks, then take it to the front and put it in the bins, and then wrap it all while at the same time 2 new tables were just sat, foods up for 2 tables, one wants dessert and another wants a check. Then you go to get the drink order, come back to find there's no glasses, so then you gotta go back make sure they've been run through the dishwasher and then carry the 30lb container to the front. In that time, one of your tables is pissed because they're food is STILL sitting in the window and the other's dessert order is up. It's not this lazy slacker kind of job that you think it is. NO ONE, even homeless people would or could do it for $3/hr. And if you want some toothless alcoholic with hepatitis serving your food, good luck.

Besides I think waiting tables is much more a free market principle. Instead of a guaranteed government mandated minimum wage, you get what you earn. You do a good job, you get paid more. And you also take the risk of getting stiffed. All part of the job.

I have to wonder though how much of other people's spit (or other gross thing) you've eaten because there are some nasty servers out there. If you're a known non-tipper, there are those who will stoop to that.

Why don't the restaurant managers just pay you what your worth? If customers come in just to see you, then you should have enough value to demand a higher wage. A good manager would pay his high performing employees better.

 

[Steven Douglas]

I never said it's lazy slacker, but labor does not equal value either.

I would qualify that with "labor does not necessarily equate to value". If you value it, and freely pay for it as such, then it does have value, or it wouldn't be paid.

Like you said, you're only paid $3 an hour, so what's wrong with having another person split your work? Are you afraid you'd not make enough tips?

Not "afraid that", so much as "fully aware that". Economic reality, not emotion. That IS where the free market kicks in, in a way that no restaurant sandbox market owner can control. It also disproves anyone's notion that servers are somehow being "fully paid" at $3 at hour.

At $3 an hour, you can afford LOTS of staff. Hell, $12 an hour, and I can have four people slaving away for me? Why not PACK the restaurant full of such help? Just surround every table with willing servants, and spoil your customers. The service would be both cheap and off the hook!

The answer: They couldn't attract help at $3 an hour without those tipping opportunities. In fact, try to open a "NO TIPPING" restaurant, where tipping is politely discouraged as being against restaurant policy. Assure your customers that your help staff is already "fully paid". Now try to hire a single server at that price. And good luck with that, as you'll get no takers - at least not a single one worth a damn. It's self-correcting and already works that way anyway, with restaurants that over-staff their servers. A server who could have waited on five tables now has only one, and leaves, because the reality of the numbers dictates that it is not economically feasible to stay.

 

[onlyrp]

I would qualify that with "labor does not necessarily equate to value". If you value it, and freely pay for it as such, then it does have value, or it wouldn't be paid.



Not "afraid that", so much as "fully aware that". Economic reality, not emotion. That IS where the free market kicks in, in a way that no restaurant sandbox market owner can control. It also disproves anyone's notion that servers are somehow being "fully paid" at $3 at hour.

At $3 an hour, you can afford LOTS of staff. Hell, $12 an hour, and I can have four people slaving away for me? Why not PACK the restaurant full of such help? Just surround every table with willing servants, and spoil your customers. The service would be both cheap and off the hook!

The answer: They couldn't attract help at $3 an hour without those tipping opportunities. In fact, try to open a "NO TIPPING" restaurant, where tipping is politely discouraged as being against restaurant policy. Assure your customers that your help staff is already "fully paid". Now try to hire a single server at that price. And good luck with that, as you'll get no takers - at least not a single one worth a damn. It's self-correcting and already works that way anyway, with restaurants that over-staff their servers. A server who could have waited on five tables now has only one, and leaves, because the reality of the numbers dictates that it is not economically feasible to stay.

Yes, it's being aware, and the fact anybody knows that, says it all. That they have just enough work to make it worth their time, or else they'd not have enough tips, or they'd not do their job the way they do, which is their choice, whatever the alternative may be. I'm sure my message won't dent enough people, so why waste my money? If I hurt somebody enough that they quit, good. If I don't, I save my money anyway, that's the advantage of having the dollar in your hand. One thing the waiter/waitress can't deny, is that they don't have better options, and nobody is forcing them to work where they do.

 

[Steven Douglas]

That they have just enough work to make it worth their time, or else they'd not have enough tips, or they'd not do their job the way they do, which is their choice, whatever the alternative may be. I'm sure my message won't dent enough people, so why waste my money?

Sure, and choice is a two-way street. If you're identified as a cheap skate - they guy who shows up to the party for the freebies - it makes complete sense if they give you standard or substandard service. That isn't determined only at the end, as many suppose. It comes out in other ways. Servers aren't stupid. The good ones can read people quite well, and can sense how they are being treated, as human beings, versus how that is likely to translate into tips.

If I hurt somebody enough that they quit, good. If I don't, I save my money anyway...

You were never paying that money anyway, and like I said, if that's telegraphed, and you're a known stiffer, you have choices, they have choices. Everybody has choices.

I typically get amazing service at restaurants, but it's not because of the tips. It goes beyond that, because I treat servers with matter-of-fact kindness, dignity and respect (things that don't cost a thing). That's no guarantee for them that I'm a tipper, but it's a probability to them based on their experience. And even if I'm not, at the very least I'm not a tight-fisted asshole who isn't enjoyable to serve at any price.

...that's the advantage of having the dollar in your hand. One thing the waiter/waitress can't deny, is that they don't have better options, and nobody is forcing them to work where they do.

That "dollar in hand" advantage is an illusion that only carries so far. One thing I've observed in life - it is far more costly in the long run to be an asshole; especially when esteeming others (e.g., "you don't have better options anyway, and nobody is forcing you, but I still expect you to jump for the plum I never dangled, bitch.").

Some have enough dollars in hand to make up the difference (a difference they rarely experience or notice by contrast). There are people who reckon everything by money costs alone, and many who believe they have "bought" the right to be an asshole to certain others. And it's true. In many cases they have done just that. That does not mean, however, that it does not come at a cost - only that the asshole can afford it.

You think you've saved a buck by not tipping, and you're right. But generally, in the long run, you get exactly what you paid for - and expected - in a misery loves company sort of way. You don't care if the server quits her job, and the server doesn't care if you dry up and blow away. It all evens out in the long run, and the service itself is not necessarily fungible, one to the next. The same person waiting on you may a completely different person, giving completely different service, when waiting on me. I factor that in, knowing that one thing scarcer than money is life itself - the time we spend on Earth. You walk out with a dollar in hand, food in your gut, and a server who hopes you never come back (and in many cases, an owner who also doesn't care). I walk out as I walked in. Happy. And they're always happy to see me return, and it's not just because I tip.

 

[Aden]

Hey guys, I have not read this thread since the day I made it. I am too busy in IRL to go over this right now. So to all the people who PMd me asking questions and what not, I might address them next week when the schedule cools down.

 

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Yes, I do believe their service is worthless, at least, worthless above what they are already paid and nothing I can't stand up and do myself. Write my order on a piece of paper? I can do it. Go pick up my order from the kitchen? No problem, it's my meal, I'll gladly do it for free too.

57 seconds in.

 

[Indy Vidual]

...so that I can adopt it and save more money myself.

You mentioned Whole foods and their prices are almost criminal. Some of the Indy grocery stores (ie. Spanish, "European", etc), used to be "just plain cheap", but many of them are adding organic sections now, and even 'natural' meats.

 

[LBennett76]

Sure, nobody is forcing them to work there. But keep in mind, if they weren't there, nobody would be taking your order and getting your food, etc. The establishments simply wouldn't exist.
And if the manager was paying me the $17/hr I was making, he wouldn't be able to cover the cost of what I and the 20 other waitresses who worked there were worth.
Oh, and the silverware thing. That is one of the jobs of the waitress. Always has been. There is no position in the store created to do that and nobody else in any position would do it. Who wants to stand around waiting for silverware to wrap (since there is a finite amount and it is washed multiple times all day long and rewrapped)? No manager in their right mind would pay for that when the $3/hr person can do it in their duties.