My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

[Danke]

I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible.

We call that being a coward, a bootlicker, etc. Nazis love guys like you.

You are actually a hindrance to the rest of us working towards liberty.

Why are you on this forum? Have you not been banned many times before, honestly?

 

[onlyrp]

We call that being a coward, a bootlicker, etc. Nazis love guys like you.

You are actually a hindrance to the rest of us working towards liberty.

Why are you on this forum? Have you not been banned many times before, honestly?

If confrontation is what you call "working towards liberty", go for it, I'm not standing in your way. I am on here because I like reading and talking to people of similar mindset, banned from what?

 

[tttppp]

I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible. My rule is servers do their job, I can make a complaint to get them fired, or else they're just doing what they are expected by everybody. I understand nobody shares my views, so I don't need to lecture them, but if you ever ask me, I have no problem telling you "you didn't earn anything extra, but if you need money, just say it". If it's insulting to be told you need money, then logically you can't and shouldn't complain if you're not tipped. Other than public workers, who else isn't expected to greet customers with a smile and "customer is always right"? Who else gets tipped just for making customers welcome at home?

I kind of agree with you. I hate paying tips. The restaurants should set a fixed price and I'll pay it. I go to eat for the food, not for the waiters. That said, I pay the standard 15% to avoid pissing them off. I don't want to come back there again and have them spit in my food.

There is no reason for this bs tips process. I've worked in the service industry before and at my company tips for employees was banned. That didn't have an effect on service at all. Under my management, the service was excellent. Employees were motivated without tips. Its not the customers job to motivate employees to do their job.

 

[VoluntaryAmerican]

I do. Know your rights, the waiter can find a better job, and you can pay what you want. Until there's a law that says otherwise. I can live with being called "rude" or "cheap", I can't live with being pressured or guilted into paying what I have better use for.

 

[AceNZ]

And not surprisingly, you missed mine.

Perhaps. But I did at least have the courtesy to respond in detail to your prior post, rather than just dismissing it.

 

[onlyrp]

exactly, as you can see, this was back in the days when learning to type would get you a better job. I hated the rest of the movie though

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I do get what they are assuming and expecting, I just don't agree with them, and like you said, I am not required. So it's completely voluntary on my part, until there's a sign that says "all customers agree to tip at minimum _%" or a law that says so, it's my choice and it's a gratuitous gift. The boss CAN pay for the waiter's performance because he has a minimum expectation of it, anybody who does not meet the basics can get fired, or anybody who gets complained by the customer can get fired. Yes, they should get another job if not getting tips would hurt them, that's my opinion, but it's their call, if there's enough people to tip them, I'll be the stiffer. If there's not, that's their problem. I'm fine with explicit rules, I hate implied expectations.

No, the boss cannot pay according to performance. He/she can only pay for the performance he/she expects, but he/she cannot measure the customer's satisfaction or know the perception that the customer had of the wait staff's performance. The boss can pay for doing what they are paid to do, you know, run through the motions, but they cannot possibly come up with a price for how the customer feels about the wait staffer's performance. Only the customer can do that, but regardless, it is earned pay because it is pay for services rendered. This doesn't only include the consumed product, which is what the bill is for, but also for the promptness and friendliness of the wait staff. If the wait staff meets expectations or better, they get a generous tip because they earned it. What they did was WORTH something. If it were just a gift, it would not be worth anything. The reason there's no standard is because of the reasons I mentioned above: you can't have a standard and still allow the customer to decide what the services rendered was worth. If the choice is taken away, then that nullifies the whole purpose of tipping.

That's so funny that you are fine with expelicit rules, like the ones Congress passes all the time, and yet a free market-oriented service and payment does not earn your respect. Why is this, might I ask? What's so wrong with the implicit expectation that the employee's services are good enough to earn a tip? The ONLY reason we have tips is to provide a performance-oriented incentive for the employees, not as charity. It's a part of the job, not just some whim of good will you have occasionally.

I'm sure you do tip and that it's because you know it's expected of you because to not tip would be to imply that the wait staff's services were worthless. However, you like to hide your obligation to tip under the facade of altruism. Regardless, tips are payment for a service as I have clearly demonstrated because it is there for the specific reason of giving incentive, not just for generosity. If this is the case, why don't they do that at other jobs?

 

[Noclone]

Or let yourself stay home with the kids, if mommy is making more or is in a steadier industry

Agree with this as well. I stayed home when my first was born, while my wife worked. I was offered a job a few months later with better pay than hers, so we switched. Worked out great! We haven't regretted it for one second. One income and we are making it just fine. Unlike the OP, we know how to manage our income.

 

[LBennett76]

My 2 cents on tipping...
I was a waitress for 6 years making 2.13/hr. And I made fabulous tips (average $15/hr) because I did a fantastic job for my customers. I had customers come in and ask specifically for me because they knew I would make their dining experience better. Then you'd have the non-tippers come in and as soon as you saw them you'd pray to God they weren't sat in your section because they also tended to be the most needy customers who ran your butt everywhere. I always treated all my customers the same though I would silently curse the non-tippers for ordering an insane amount of food, needing 50 refills, plus this then that then this again for nothing and interfering with the service I was trying to give to my good tippers. We had to report a percentage of our total sales as tips whether we made it or not and that was then taxed, so a group of 4 that ends up ordering $100 worth of food (at Bob Evans mind you) and then stiffed me was indirectly costing me money as I was taxed for what they were supposed to give me. On a couple occasions that $100 table (as they came in once or twice a week) gave me a dollar or two. One guy with missing fingers used to wave my dollar tip at me and make me grasp for it while he'd pull it away. Sure I'd laugh along, but all the while seething because Mr. 20-freaking refills of rootbeer was toying with me for a buck. lol Fortunately I had a 70-something guy come in 3 times a week, sit only in my section, and leave me $20 everytime. So it all balanced out. But some customers were just whacked out. HAHA
As far as paying the servers more, when minimum wage went up in Ohio (and server wages went to 3-something), the result was the firing of busboys. The servers then had the work of cleaning the tables added to their duties. If you paid them minimum wage 1. Who knows what other work they would add? and 2. There'd probably be fewer servers because the restaurant couldn't afford them. Both of which would take away from the dining experience. Service would be abysmal. Also, who the hell would wait tables only to end up making minimum wage? Who would work for $2-3/hr with no tips? I liked the competitiveness of waitressing. I loved when we counted tips at the end of the night and seeing that I made more than the grouchy sucky servers. I prided myself on great service and liked the tips I had to show for it. That's the free market. You market yourself and see what you get. I was a good marketer.

 

[Steven Douglas]

I taught my daughters very early in life that there are many ways to gauge a person's character, one of which is how they treat/view servers at a restaurant. Those who reckon everything by the letter of the law -- and rights, duties and forced obligations only, do indeed have the right to be assholes in a free society. Even obnoxious assholes. There's nothing special about them, but that is their right, and I wouldn't do anything to change that.

For server staff in a "tipping culture", like ours, restaurants are privately controlled sandboxes as far as free markets go (and I don't mean places like Starbucks or a doughnut shop, where bandwagon morons take Sharpies and dress up plastic cups borrowed from homeless people to put on their counter, and join in on the tipping bandwagon, as they try to guilt people into tipping for just taking an order).

Servers in restaurants can't refuse service to the dreaded known non-tippers (on that basis alone), who, like our Reservoir Dog, Mr. Pink, believes that the cost of the server is (or should be) already fully included in the price of the food and drinks. So what. Big deal, life's full of assholes. And, like LBennet76 said, that can be more than compensated for by great service to other customers who do tip. That's not to the credit of the cheapskate, or the restaurant, but it is the reality.

In a truly free market, a server could choose to simply not wait on a table of known non-tippers, or those who dangle a single dollar bill as if it was some kind of juicy plum. They really could just go screw themselves, as the non-tipper would deserve whatever sub-standard service or non-service they get -- assuming they're locals, or not foreigners, and do understand the customs, whether or not they agree with them. But again, it's not a free market. It's the restaurant's private market place, and the restaurant (rightly) holds a monopoly on who can serve on its behalf. And their concern is not with tips, but the sale of food and drinks - and those prices, unlike gratuity, are more than set, agreed to, and enforced.

The irony here: If everyone was a Mr. Pink, and tipping stopped altogether - restaurants would not be able to attract decent help without being forced to make up the difference in the prices - itemized as mandatory gratuities - thus forcing ALL customers, including the Mr. Pinks of the world, into being "tippers". Just like what happens in Beijing, Shanghai and other places that have a majority of non-tippers as customers. The price simply goes up for everyone.

The downside yin to that yang: erstwhile big tippers would pay less, while erstwhile cheapskates would be forced to pay more. Sounds good to some on paper, but that also means that good servers might not earn $15 an hour either, as few customers would tip more, knowing in advance that a gratuity was mandatory. In addition, the restaurant would now control more of what the servers made, with no rule that says that a 15% gratuity automatically goes to the server. So in the end it's a wash, which is partly why I have no normative "ought" position on the subject.

 

[tttppp]

No, the boss cannot pay according to performance. He/she can only pay for the performance he/she expects, but he/she cannot measure the customer's satisfaction or know the perception that the customer had of the wait staff's performance. The boss can pay for doing what they are paid to do, you know, run through the motions, but they cannot possibly come up with a price for how the customer feels about the wait staffer's performance. Only the customer can do that, but regardless, it is earned pay because it is pay for services rendered. This doesn't only include the consumed product, which is what the bill is for, but also for the promptness and friendliness of the wait staff. If the wait staff meets expectations or better, they get a generous tip because they earned it. What they did was WORTH something. If it were just a gift, it would not be worth anything. The reason there's no standard is because of the reasons I mentioned above: you can't have a standard and still allow the customer to decide what the services rendered was worth. If the choice is taken away, then that nullifies the whole purpose of tipping.

That's so funny that you are fine with expelicit rules, like the ones Congress passes all the time, and yet a free market-oriented service and payment does not earn your respect. Why is this, might I ask? What's so wrong with the implicit expectation that the employee's services are good enough to earn a tip? The ONLY reason we have tips is to provide a performance-oriented incentive for the employees, not as charity. It's a part of the job, not just some whim of good will you have occasionally.

I'm sure you do tip and that it's because you know it's expected of you because to not tip would be to imply that the wait staff's services were worthless. However, you like to hide your obligation to tip under the facade of altruism. Regardless, tips are payment for a service as I have clearly demonstrated because it is there for the specific reason of giving incentive, not just for generosity. If this is the case, why don't they do that at other jobs?

Why not leave a tip for the chefs too while you're at it? The food is far more important than who serves it. As long as a waiter is on time and get my order correct, I could care less about the service. Why not run a wait staff the way you run any other staff, and that is have the management responsible for motivating the wait staff. Why is it necessary for customers to manage the wait staff? Its not their job. When I go to a restaurant, I don't want the burden of managing someone's wait staff, thats their job, not mine.

 

[onlyrp]

Why not leave a tip for the chefs too while you're at it? The food is far more important than who serves it. As long as a waiter is on time and get my order correct, I could care less about the service. Why not run a wait staff the way you run any other staff, and that is have the management responsible for motivating the wait staff. Why is it necessary for customers to manage the wait staff? Its not their job. When I go to a restaurant, I don't want the burden of managing someone's wait staff, thats their job, not mine.

according to the Mr. Pink video, "because society says so", there is no reason a waiter is more deserving of your gratuity than any other worker who serves a customer, waiters are what they are because they job requires very little skill, they are free to quit and find a better job if they like.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trendin...ncites-class-warfare-between-1-164624882.html

 

[onlyrp]

That's so funny that you are fine with expelicit rules, like the ones Congress passes all the time, and yet a free market-oriented service and payment does not earn your respect. Why is this, might I ask? What's so wrong with the implicit expectation that the employee's services are good enough to earn a tip? The ONLY reason we have tips is to provide a performance-oriented incentive for the employees, not as charity. It's a part of the job, not just some whim of good will you have occasionally.

Nothing's wrong, just don't get mad at me when I choose to exercise my rights.

I'm sure you do tip and that it's because you know it's expected of you because to not tip would be to imply that the wait staff's services were worthless. However, you like to hide your obligation to tip under the facade of altruism. Regardless, tips are payment for a service as I have clearly demonstrated because it is there for the specific reason of giving incentive, not just for generosity. If this is the case, why don't they do that at other jobs?

Yes, I do believe their service is worthless, at least, worthless above what they are already paid and nothing I can't stand up and do myself. Write my order on a piece of paper? I can do it. Go pick up my order from the kitchen? No problem, it's my meal, I'll gladly do it for free too. I don't hide anything I do as altruism, I truly hate it. There's a reason they're paid less than most jobs, because that's what their job is worth. The market has decided that for them.

 

[onlyrp]

My 2 cents on tipping...
I was a waitress for 6 years making 2.13/hr. And I made fabulous tips (average $15/hr) because I did a fantastic job for my customers. I had customers come in and ask specifically for me because they knew I would make their dining experience better. Then you'd have the non-tippers come in and as soon as you saw them you'd pray to God they weren't sat in your section because they also tended to be the most needy customers who ran your butt everywhere.

No worries, that's not me. I ask for the bare basics.

I always treated all my customers the same though I would silently curse the non-tippers for ordering an insane amount of food, needing 50 refills, plus this then that then this again for nothing and interfering with the service I was trying to give to my good tippers.

What are they gonna do to you if you ignore them? Slap you?

We had to report a percentage of our total sales as tips whether we made it or not and that was then taxed, so a group of 4 that ends up ordering $100 worth of food (at Bob Evans mind you) and then stiffed me was indirectly costing me money as I was taxed for what they were supposed to give me.

Sounds tough, but nobody is forcing you to work that job.

On a couple occasions that $100 table (as they came in once or twice a week) gave me a dollar or two. One guy with missing fingers used to wave my dollar tip at me and make me grasp for it while he'd pull it away. Sure I'd laugh along, but all the while seething because Mr. 20-freaking refills of rootbeer was toying with me for a buck.

That's the risk of the job. There's a reason nobody else wants to work there, and there's no shortage of people who need money.

lol Fortunately I had a 70-something guy come in 3 times a week, sit only in my section, and leave me $20 everytime. So it all balanced out. But some customers were just whacked out. HAHA
As far as paying the servers more, when minimum wage went up in Ohio (and server wages went to 3-something), the result was the firing of busboys. The servers then had the work of cleaning the tables added to their duties. If you paid them minimum wage 1. Who knows what other work they would add? and 2. There'd probably be fewer servers because the restaurant couldn't afford them.

Whose loss would that ultimately be? I love how people phrase things as if it's going to hurt consumers.

Both of which would take away from the dining experience. Service would be abysmal. Also, who the hell would wait tables only to end up making minimum wage?

Nobody if they had a choice, everybody if they didn't.

Who would work for $2-3/hr with no tips?

Seen homeless people? Seen Africa?

I liked the competitiveness of waitressing. I loved when we counted tips at the end of the night and seeing that I made more than the grouchy sucky servers. I prided myself on great service and liked the tips I had to show for it. That's the free market. You market yourself and see what you get. I was a good marketer.

You manage to earn them, that's good, but you can't fault a person for not appreciating you with their buck. Not until there's a legal obligation or explicit contract. Do you tip your friend for giving you a ride? Do you give a donation every time you're invited to a dinner party? Oh, ever asked to use a restroom when you're not a customer?

 

[tttppp]

according to the Mr. Pink video, "because society says so", there is no reason a waiter is more deserving of your gratuity than any other worker who serves a customer, waiters are what they are because they job requires very little skill, they are free to quit and find a better job if they like.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trendin...ncites-class-warfare-between-1-164624882.html

As long as restaurants don't pay waiters themselves, we are kind of forced into paying some kind of tip. If you leave the kind of tip that guy left, you're guaranteed to get spit or worse in your food next time you go there. The only way out of this is for companies to simply say they don't except tips.

 

[Steven Douglas]

Yes, I do believe their service is worthless, at least, worthless above what they are already paid and nothing I can't stand up and do myself. Write my order on a piece of paper? I can do it. Go pick up my order from the kitchen? No problem, it's my meal, I'll gladly do it for free too.

Yeah, it's called a buffet, or a fast food restaurant, or a 7-11 with burritos and a microwave, or cold wrapped sandwiches. There are tons of ways to eat without taking advantage of a bad situation that you know exists, but will still sit your cheap ass down and exploit as you rationalize it according to your own, very different, paradigm. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to eat at restaurants that pay $2 an hour to their servers (not the cooks, not the bus boys or other staff - just the servers). If you think $2 an hour is "already paid", or that gratuities to such people are somehow based on altruism or charity, that's fine. Technically speaking, you have that "right". However, Mr. Pink, I think you know better than that.

At the very least, the thought that you would actually complain to a manager about service that you know is priced/valued at .50 cents or less (without gratuity) is strange to me. It's practically free at that price, so what could you possibly have to complain about?

 

[onlyrp]

At the very least, the thought that you would actually complain to a manager about service that you know is priced/valued at .50 cents or less (without gratuity) is strange to me. It's practically free at that price, so what could you possibly have to complain about?

I wouldn't complain as long as it's done to its basic legal minimum.

 

[LBennett76]

I think if you don't plan on tipping you should tell the server so they can make sure not to bust their ass for you. They'll get you when they get you and if you don't like it you can take your ass home and get your own damn food. Ignore a customer who wants your attention? HAHAHAHA You get your apron pulled on, you get tripped, they come up and get in your face... yeah. Not everybody is as basic as you are in desire for service. I had someone follow me into the bathroom once to tell me they needed a refill right away. I honestly don't think you've ever worked a day in serving the public else you would have a VERY different view.
And yes, I give my friends gas money for giving me a ride. Never been to a dinner party. I'm poor and so are my friends, so that kinda high falutin' stuff doesn't exist around these parts. And I do ask if I can use the bathroom if I'm not a customer, or I purchase something like a candy bar or something when I come out.
Can I ask what the "basic legal minimum" is?

Edited to add: If servers only made $3/hr and no tips, there would be no restaurants because no one would work for that. NO ONE. You can make better money getting welfare. And if you want homeless people serving your food. Have at it. And how Africans could fly over to work and then back home again off $3/hr seems incredibly... impossible.

 

[Griffith]

Sheesh, I have several pieces of new furniture, eat out multiple times every weekend, have internet, cell phone, etc. And I wonder where my money goes, I guess that's it.

 

[onlyrp]

I think if you don't plan on tipping you should tell the server so they can make sure not to bust their ass for you. They'll get you when they get you and if you don't like it you can take your ass home and get your own damn food. Ignore a customer who wants your attention? HAHAHAHA You get your apron pulled on, you get tripped, they come up and get in your face... yeah. Not everybody is as basic as you are in desire for service. I had someone follow me into the bathroom once to tell me they needed a refill right away. I honestly don't think you've ever worked a day in serving the public else you would have a VERY different view.
And yes, I give my friends gas money for giving me a ride. Never been to a dinner party. I'm poor and so are my friends, so that kinda high falutin' stuff doesn't exist around these parts. And I do ask if I can use the bathroom if I'm not a customer, or I purchase something like a candy bar or something when I come out.
Can I ask what the "basic legal minimum" is?

Edited to add: If servers only made $3/hr and no tips, there would be no restaurants because no one would work for that. NO ONE. You can make better money getting welfare. And if you want homeless people serving your food. Have at it. And how Africans could fly over to work and then back home again off $3/hr seems incredibly... impossible.

You are correct that it's better to live on welfare than on $3 an hour, but just wait until welfare goes away, then we'll see people working for $1/hr. I answered your question, there are people who will work for that if there were no alternatives.

Basic legal minimum is, the local and state regulations on how restaurants (as well as other businesses) are required to operate, that is to say, their sanitation, food quality, charging only what the menu says,...etc. I believe laws are strict enough that I wouldn't need to ask for more. I don't consider writing down my order and delivering my order from the kitchen "busting my ass" and I wouldn't ask for more than that. You are correct that I never worked in the service industry, and that's because I have many other choices, I would probably work there if my other options were worse.