good luck telling that to a person who fears auditing and therefore foregoes his donations to his church, he gave 10% too.
My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k
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good luck telling that to a person who fears auditing and therefore foregoes his donations to his church, he gave 10% too.
I would think so too.
But I don't appreciate it any more than I appreciate everybody else doing their job for whatever they are paid. I'm not going to foot somebody's bill just because his boss screws him. He agreed to the job, perhaps with reasonable expectations of tips, but not legal guarantees of it. What is the difference between gratuity and charity? Both are given for nothing in return.
eduardo89
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agreed.
tbone717
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Oh man, not good. I have been self employed for 20 something years, home office and all and have never been audited. I figure if I ever get audited, I get my attorney to handle it. Just a cost of doing business these days.
AceNZ
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FWIW, where I live now in New Zealand, tips are truly optional. Wages are set appropriately, and most New Zealanders rarely tip.
If it was just receive, then the person wouldn't be required to do any work to get their tips, and they would be able to keep everything they get. That's not the way it works.
You can't tell for sure one way or the other. The homeless person sitting on curb outside the restaurant certainly has a larger need than the waiter or waitress with a job. If you're giving based on need, why not give to them instead?
You might be able to get away with not tipping once in a given restaurant. I've seen waitresses run outside and scream at people for not leaving a tip. In some places, you'd be lucky to get out the door without tipping. Yes, it's technically not a crime, but it's expected. If you don't tip, try going back to the same place again, and you're likely to never get your food, or it will be messed with by the staff before it arrives.
You have no idea who I've talked to or what jobs I've had. And I never said that some wait-staff don't need tips. Most do, but not all.
Oh, so you just walk into random restaurants and start handing out money to anyone who works there, whether they serve you or not?
Most people don't tip unless they're served first, in which case it's not a gift. There are strings, because they require that they are served first. Most people also only tip in proportion to the total cost of the meal. Again, if there were no strings, why should the amount be tied to what you paid?
The "documentation" is the definition you posted:
char·i·ty /ˈCHaritē/
Noun:
The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
Help or money given in this way.
But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that the wait-staff didn't actually earn the tip, that you are somehow superior and hugely magnanimous for giving them a gift -- which also implies that they should thank you -- preferably profusely, I'm sure -- then all I can say is I'm sorry that you don't see how horribly demeaning that is. How equating need with work and earning is evil. If I was waiting on you, and you came up to me afterwards and said "You didn't earn this, but I can see that you're in need, so here's a 'gift' for you," I would decline, and you'd be lucky if I didn't punch you in the face.
PaulConventionWV
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This. It's an assumed part of the restaurant industry because the waiter's/waitresses earnings can't be totally based on hourly wage. It has to be at least partially based on performance in order to provide an incentive for good performance in the future, as heavenlyboy pointed out.
PaulConventionWV
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You don't get it. It MUST be at least partially based on performance. The BOSS can't pay for the waiter's/waitresses performance because he/she can't determine their performance, only the customer can. Also, they can't REQUIRE you to pay tips either because you might not be giving a tip simply because you weren't satisfied with the performance, but it is entirely expected of you to tip something. Of course it's not illegal to not tip, and thank God we don't have another law like that, but it is definitely a significant part of their income and if you are better at your job, you get more money. The bill is what you pay the company to compensate for the product you consumed, and the tip is the waiter's/waitresses performance-based pay. If they are doing that job, they must expect to get at least something for their performance, or else they should get another job because they can't succeed in that business.
I do get what they are assuming and expecting, I just don't agree with them, and like you said, I am not required. So it's completely voluntary on my part, until there's a sign that says "all customers agree to tip at minimum _%" or a law that says so, it's my choice and it's a gratuitous gift. The boss CAN pay for the waiter's performance because he has a minimum expectation of it, anybody who does not meet the basics can get fired, or anybody who gets complained by the customer can get fired. Yes, they should get another job if not getting tips would hurt them, that's my opinion, but it's their call, if there's enough people to tip them, I'll be the stiffer. If there's not, that's their problem. I'm fine with explicit rules, I hate implied expectations.
therefore you should be happy if I stiffed you silently and walked away. Because I can be honest with you, and you can be honest with me, but if you wanna get violent over 5 bucks, I'll avoid you, and save my money.
Steven Douglas
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Gratuity - a decidedly American thing, for the most part.
Throughout most of China tipping is not customary. Not only is it not expected, it can produce a variety of reactions when tried - positive and negative, depending on how it's given and to whom it is offered. But regardless, the reaction is typically one of surprise.
I asked an Australian expat friend, "Was it difficult for you to get used to not tipping when you first moved here to China?"
His response, "No, mate, it wasn't difficult at all, because we don't tip in Australia. But you yanks have fucked the market up in metropolitan areas with all your tipping."
There has always been a problem in major metropolitan areas, like Shanghai and Beijing, where foreigners are in great numbers, and where help staff was incentivized to give better service to tippers (typically Americans), and "lesser" service as a consequence, and by contrast, to others. That poses problems to a firm that is marketing to all nationalities, and don't want their market limited to customary tippers, while repelling those who do not tip, but won't come back because of sub-standard service.
Sure enough, at nicer hotels and restaurants in Shanghai and Beijing, individual tipping could only be discouraged by placing a mandatory gratuity onto each bill. That's a zero sum gain that makes everyone a tipper, regardless of their custom or country of origin. All the firm really needed to do was itemize the cost, to show that "Service" was paid for in full, and we are back to help staff merely having to do their jobs as dictated by management.
In the U.S., the custom of tipping only showed restaurants, etc., that we are willing to pay more for good service - which meant they could pay their help staff less, because these firms could now factor in tips when hiring. And that's the rub of it all, because if we didn't tip, bars and restaurants would be forced to pay more for help. We would see the same bills, as if we had all tipped, but the wages of the help staff would not be partially dependent on the generosity and/or tipping customs of each customer.
The rub, in my mind, is that a waiter or waitress cannot negotiate, up front and individually with each customer, for tips. The restaurant or bar can set their price. $3 for a drink, $11.95 for the meal, and that is a binding contract. The help staff, on the other hand, cannot say, for example, "I'll be serving you, and my fee for this service is $___." No contractual obligation whatsoever is established, nor can there be if mandatory gratuities are not applied. Which leaves it to each individual to determine, according to their individual thoughts about gratuity.
So some people think "Forget it. The help staff is already getting paid, and should be content with their wages. They agreed to their price, and that's not my problem. Anything I give is extra - a "bonus", or a "gift" - so why should I tip someone for just doing their job?". Others, however, will think, "I know that the help staff is getting paid less because the firm factored that in when hiring. So if I don't tip, the waiter/waitress may be working for $2 an hour (in some states)." So a tip comes as a matter of course, even if the service was average. The average food had to be paid for, so why not the average service?
I don't really have a position on what, if anything, "ought" to be done about it. But I do think it's easy enough to describe accurately - especially pointing to responses in this thread, which stand as strong evidence that virtually everyone has a different thought about tipping, and what it means to each when they do it. Or refrain from doing it.
Throughout most of China tipping is not customary. Not only is it not expected, it can produce a variety of reactions when tried - positive and negative, depending on how it's given and to whom it is offered. But regardless, the reaction is typically one of surprise.
I asked an Australian expat friend, "Was it difficult for you to get used to not tipping when you first moved here to China?"
His response, "No, mate, it wasn't difficult at all, because we don't tip in Australia. But you yanks have fucked the market up in metropolitan areas with all your tipping."
There has always been a problem in major metropolitan areas, like Shanghai and Beijing, where foreigners are in great numbers, and where help staff was incentivized to give better service to tippers (typically Americans), and "lesser" service as a consequence, and by contrast, to others. That poses problems to a firm that is marketing to all nationalities, and don't want their market limited to customary tippers, while repelling those who do not tip, but won't come back because of sub-standard service.
Sure enough, at nicer hotels and restaurants in Shanghai and Beijing, individual tipping could only be discouraged by placing a mandatory gratuity onto each bill. That's a zero sum gain that makes everyone a tipper, regardless of their custom or country of origin. All the firm really needed to do was itemize the cost, to show that "Service" was paid for in full, and we are back to help staff merely having to do their jobs as dictated by management.
In the U.S., the custom of tipping only showed restaurants, etc., that we are willing to pay more for good service - which meant they could pay their help staff less, because these firms could now factor in tips when hiring. And that's the rub of it all, because if we didn't tip, bars and restaurants would be forced to pay more for help. We would see the same bills, as if we had all tipped, but the wages of the help staff would not be partially dependent on the generosity and/or tipping customs of each customer.
The rub, in my mind, is that a waiter or waitress cannot negotiate, up front and individually with each customer, for tips. The restaurant or bar can set their price. $3 for a drink, $11.95 for the meal, and that is a binding contract. The help staff, on the other hand, cannot say, for example, "I'll be serving you, and my fee for this service is $___." No contractual obligation whatsoever is established, nor can there be if mandatory gratuities are not applied. Which leaves it to each individual to determine, according to their individual thoughts about gratuity.
So some people think "Forget it. The help staff is already getting paid, and should be content with their wages. They agreed to their price, and that's not my problem. Anything I give is extra - a "bonus", or a "gift" - so why should I tip someone for just doing their job?". Others, however, will think, "I know that the help staff is getting paid less because the firm factored that in when hiring. So if I don't tip, the waiter/waitress may be working for $2 an hour (in some states)." So a tip comes as a matter of course, even if the service was average. The average food had to be paid for, so why not the average service?
I don't really have a position on what, if anything, "ought" to be done about it. But I do think it's easy enough to describe accurately - especially pointing to responses in this thread, which stand as strong evidence that virtually everyone has a different thought about tipping, and what it means to each when they do it. Or refrain from doing it.
I do. Know your rights, the waiter can find a better job, and you can pay what you want. Until there's a law that says otherwise. I can live with being called "rude" or "cheap", I can't live with being pressured or guilted into paying what I have better use for.
AceNZ
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It's not the money that would make me consider violence (I said I would turn down the money). It's the demeaning insult.
How would you know to avoid me, if you treat all servers that way?
If you honestly think that a server didn't earn a tip, then yes, please walk away rather than showering them with your pity and "charity."
AceNZ
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You said it, not me. Quite the assumptions though. I had a feeling you'd drag it down to this level, typical. BTW- I'd knock your sorry NZ ass out after your weak punch to my face and then get you fired from your crappy job
Not surprisingly, you completely missed my point.
AceNZ
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Oh, you'd be surprised what a motivated server can negotiate (either implicitly or explicitly), particularly with repeat customers. Just because it's not often done doesn't mean it can't be done.
I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible. My rule is servers do their job, I can make a complaint to get them fired, or else they're just doing what they are expected by everybody. I understand nobody shares my views, so I don't need to lecture them, but if you ever ask me, I have no problem telling you "you didn't earn anything extra, but if you need money, just say it". If it's insulting to be told you need money, then logically you can't and shouldn't complain if you're not tipped. Other than public workers, who else isn't expected to greet customers with a smile and "customer is always right"? Who else gets tipped just for making customers welcome at home?
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I agree, even a cheapskate like me can be induced into giving up some , some of the time. Not hard either, but "automatically tipping" is not for me.
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