Must Libertarians Believe in Open Borders?

[LibertyEagle]

We are where we are. Either mass-immigration must be stopped with the means currently at hand, or it will not be stopped. This means passports and visas, and agencies empowered to seek out and return those who slip through the first line of immigration control. Where the refugees in Calais are concerned, it means deporting them to the last non-European country they left, and making sure that no more of them are allowed to reach the northern shores of the Mediterranean.

This is, I hasten to add, only part of the solution. Our governments must also stop turning much of the Third World into slagheaps soaked in human blood. They must stop veering between support of local tyrants and their more recent insistence on forms of government inappropriate to actual conditions. They must, so far as possible, leave other peoples to work out their own destinies in their own ways. This will, I have no doubt, reduce the outward push behind the migrants. Even so, we must secure our own borders.

Now, for many of those libertarians who accept the existence of a problem, this solution is itself a problem. An ideology that cannot be followed in extreme cases must be a false ideology. If the non-aggression principle is not to be consistently applied, is it worth applying at all?

I appreciate the difficulty. At the same time, it is a manufactured difficulty. It would not have been recognised as a difficulty by most of our intellectual ancestors. If many libertarians, when they think about mass-immigration, are now beginning to look like scared ostriches, or the more double-joined Indian fakirs, this is not because of any defect in the libertarian fundamentals. It is because, over the past few decades, libertarianism has been re-interpreted in ways that part company with reality. To be specific, the non-aggression principle has been raised from something to be desired within circumstantial constraints to an abstract and absolute imperative. If the only legitimate use of force is to protect individual rights, all other uses of force are illegitimate, and must be rejected out of hand by libertarians.

Let us consider how distant this imperative is from reality.

more....

 

[Ronin Truth]

Nope, the NAP is the only MUST.

 

[rg17]

I believe in moderately strong borders.

 

[Dr.3D]

Open borders is what those working toward a one world government would like to see.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Nope, the NAP is the only MUST.

But, then again, you WANT the country to fall.

 

[fisharmor]

But, then again, you WANT the country to fall.

...Yes? Is that all you need? Confirmation that I don't give a rat's ass about the blood-soaked false hope that is the United States?

If you stop drying your eyes with the flag for a second and recognize that a lot of us have no allegiance to the state, maybe our position would make more sense.

But that would require you to snap out of your Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Dr.3D]

But, then again, you WANT the country to fall.

Thing is, it won't fail the way they think it would. One must look at the reality of the situation and respect the fact there will never be NO government.

 

[Rad]

I don't think its the immigrants that people are really angry about. Its economic inequality perpetrated by the system. We have a cradle to grave system that is designed to manufacture human beings for use by government and business (youtube: "John Taylor Gatto"). I think immigration is more free than our economic system. I think they should be in balance otherwise doesn't harm come to those who can not game the system thus violating the no harm principle? Isn't that what people are really angry about?

 

[LibertyEagle]

...Yes? Is that all you need? Confirmation that I don't give a rat's ass about the blood-soaked false hope that is the United States?

If you stop drying your eyes with the flag for a second and recognize that a lot of us have no allegiance to the state, maybe our position would make more sense.

But that would require you to snap out of your Stockholm Syndrome.

No, I know some of you don't. And in my opinion, that puts you in the same bucket as the globalist traitors who are doing everything in their power to bring the country down.

Just making sure everyone else knows where some of you stand and what you are about. Even Lew Rockwell thinks those of you who believe this way are dumbasses.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Thing is, it won't fail the way they think it would. One must look at the reality of the situation and respect the fact there will never be NO government.

True. That is why they are useful idiots.

 

[Dr.3D]

True. That is why they are useful idiots.

Yes, the vacuum of anarchy just sucks in another form of government. One can learn from history that anarchy doesn't last very long. Even an anarchist who wishes to maintain anarchy and fights to keep it, would become the government they despise.

 

[fisharmor]

No, I know some of you don't. And in my opinion, that puts you in the same bucket as the globalist traitors who are doing everything in their power to bring the country down.

You don't post about liberty here. You don't post about freedom.
All you ever post about is how the country is being brought down.
You don't fear the county that would come in after. You fear losing the county you have.
If you concentrated on liberty, and not the flag, then we might have hope of getting liberty after a collapse.
But you're double barring the door of your cage, and the only reason you do this is because it's your cage.

 

[Dr.3D]

You don't post about liberty here. You don't post about freedom.
All you ever post about is how the country is being brought down.
You don't fear the county that would come in after. You fear losing the county you have.
If you concentrated on liberty, and not the flag, then we might have hope of getting liberty after a collapse.
But you're double barring the door of your cage, and the only reason you do this is because it's your cage.

Maybe some feel it's better to try to fix what we already have, rather than hope we get something better from the rubble of a collapse.

 

[LibertyEagle]

You don't post about liberty here. You don't post about freedom.
All you ever post about is how the country is being brought down.
You don't fear the county that would come in after. You fear losing the county you have.
If you concentrated on liberty, and not the flag, then we might have hope of getting liberty after a collapse.
But you're double barring the door of your cage, and the only reason you do this is because it's your cage.

Because it's dumb as dirt to believe that if the country fell, that we would be allowed to rebuild it from the ashes. Don't you get that the globalists WANT the country to fall? They have espoused it in their books, speeches, etc., yet here you are doing your best to help them. When the country falls, we will be ushered into world government. If you think it's bad now and you cannot see a way through, imagine how you will work with that crap.

I don't like the situation we are in any better than you do. But, I damn sure don't want to take 100 steps backward and make our path IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Sola_Fide]

If you are against the drug war, you must want everyone to do drugs.

 

[groverblue]

I believe in open borders, but I also believe in national sovereignty and the right to self defense. So, it's a fluid position for me. We all recognize that the real solution is to end the welfare state and stop military adventurism, which are really the cause for the "border issue."

 

[LibertyEagle]

I believe in open borders, but I also believe in national sovereignty and the right to self defense. So, it's a fluid position for me. We all recognize that the real solution is to end the welfare state and stop military adventurism, which are really the cause for the "border issue."

And the horrible trade deals.

 

[Dr.3D]

And the horrible trade deals.

Yeah, the wind is still blowing to the south, and taking jobs with it.

 

[The Gold Standard]

Depends on what you mean by libertarians. And what you mean by borders.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

No, I know some of you don't. And in my opinion, that puts you in the same bucket as the globalist traitors who are doing everything in their power to bring the country down.

Just making sure everyone else knows where some of you stand and what you are about. Even Lew Rockwell thinks those of you who believe this way are dumbasses.

You are an authoritarian so I don't really understand what your problem is with a one world government.

Is it because you are worried that your postcards won't be delivered to your leaders? (Leaders who don't give a fuck about what you think regardless)