Mitt Romney lost because he ostracized us

FYI, DeMint said that almost 1 year ago. I agree with him - I even agree wrt what the important aspects are. But how is that related to the thesis that Romney lost because he that ostracism thing?
 
FYI, DeMint said that almost 1 year ago. I agree with him - I even agree wrt what the important aspects are. But how is that related to the thesis that Romney lost because he that ostracism thing?

Call it whatever you want, the cheating sealed it. The lack of even pandering to libertarains, conservatives and swing voters only contributed.
 
FYI, DeMint said that almost 1 year ago. I agree with him - I even agree wrt what the important aspects are. But how is that related to the thesis that Romney lost because he that ostracism thing?

What part of 'a house divided against itself cannot stand' do you not understand?

What part of the fastest way to divide an organization is to say the members with principle will be the death of everyone do you not understand? Especially when the people of principle know that it's a lie.

What part of you only think you're slick enough to come here and make us look like fools do you not understand?
 
I feel the liberty movement appeals to all americans of different races and creeds, something the current party knows little about.
 
DeMint is wrong on several extents and here is why.

1) The Liberty candidates had stronger Democratic opponents given their district. Would you really expect any Republican to outperform a conservative Democrat in a state like Kentucky? Keep this in mind: Kentucky is a pretty Democratic state. It's just that they don't support liberals. Any blue dog is going to outperform the top of the ticket. Same with Amash. Amash's opponent was a conservative who was trying to play the neocon card by being a supporter of Israel and supposedly more pro-life.

2) Name recognition and campaign strength. Kurt Bills was overmatched by an opponent who had experience, more money, and a better campaign machine. If anything, it's a knock on the Romney campaign that they never did anything for Bills.

I'm not sure why you mention Kentucky. There was no other statewide race in KY besides Prez. As for the opponent, I'll give you Amash, but most of the others? And your theory falls apart because Romney over-performed those guys even in states Obama won. See Mack, for example.

Romney barely campaigned in MN, but then again, that stuff is part of a candidacy. If Bills couldn't even fundraise at decent levels... it's another reason for people to completely dismiss the point I replied to.
 
What part of 'a house divided against itself cannot stand' do you not understand?

What part of the fastest way to divide an organization is to say the members with principle will be the death of everyone do you not understand? Especially when the people of principle know that it's a lie.

What part of you only think you're slick enough to come here and make us look like fools do you not understand?

I'm not sure why you keep making personal remarks. You know I never engage in that stuff.

There are lots of factions who believe they're the only principled ones.

Do you think Romney voters would always vote for the GOP candidate? That they're all party loyalists or something?

How do you explain so many Romney voters didn't vote for Ron Paul/Rand Paul (and, admittedly, DeMint) endorsed candidates?
 
I'm not sure why you mention Kentucky. There was no other statewide race in KY besides Prez....

... it's another reason for people to completely dismiss the point I replied to.

Has anyone else noticed that the doubletalk is getting thicker and thicker this morning?

Oh, and you don't have to give us Amash, DeMint. We earned him. Despite your gloomy naysaying discouragement a couple of weeks ago.
 
I have talked to and read dozens of republicans about this and I've yet to meet one who mentioned Ron Paul voters (or, for that matter, Gary Johnson).

I don't think anyone will believe this was a factor - I doubt people will even think about it - except some of you here.

Reasons:

1 - The numbers don't even come close. Even a 51%-48% Romney win in the popular vote wouldn't be enough to win the election. The tipping state is Colorado that he'll lost by almost five points.

2 - There is a huge credibility problem. Romney didn't lose because he ostracised you. Most of you would never vote for Romney - or any other Republican except Ron Paul - regardless of what Romney had done: just read this forum. This is just a pretext.

3 - This is hugely important: Romney over-performed the "liberty candidates", candidates endorsed by Ron Paul and candidates endorsed by Rand Paul. Bentivolio and Amash. The down ticket candidates in New Hampshire (that were decimated). Those Senate candidates that Ron Paul endorsed like Connie Mack and Denny Rehberg. He did better than Rehberg by 14 points. Better than Flake by 7 points. Better than Mack by 13 points.

Rand Paul cut robocalls and spent money helping Mourdock and Akin. Romney over-performed them by gigantic margins. And Kurt Bills lost his race by 35 points - while Romney lost MN by 7 points. You can do the math.

What people are thinking when they look at the results is that candidates to the right of Romney did even worse. And at least in swing states, they did. Ron Paul endorsements proved to be worth very little - which is not surprising to me as I've been reading this site lately.

In the end, most hardcore Ron Paul supporters (his soft supporters voted Romney) and Libertarians will never vote for a GOP candidate, regardless of who that is (I'd comfortably include Rand Paul in here). The later are just sectaries - I was just checking results and they run a candidate against Amash who got 3% of the vote!! Not even Amash is good enough for them. That's just the "Chirping Sectary" vote. Most Ron Paul hardcore supporters are a bit like that too or they simply don't have any solid affinity with conservatism in terms of ideology and happen to support Ron Paul because they like his positions on foreign policy and mistake his position on fiat currency and his attacks on rent-seeking with the typical economic populism.

So there's basically no reason to go after those voters when not only they'd refuse to reach any type of compromise, it'd imply losing much more voters in the middle. The trade-off just isn't worth it.

You're correct that endorsements mean nothing to our voting in most cases (except to draw attention to candidates we might like), no matter who makes them. However, it's not because we'll only vote for one man. It's because we judge candidates based on who they are, and we consider endorsements and obedience to be of little to no value in and of themselves. You're looking at this through conservative blinders without a proper understanding of our diversity: Do we have people with a more populist economic sense than conservatives in your mold? Sure...but our core is full of staunch paleoconservatives and hardcore libertarians with a much deeper sense of economics and what a free market means than anyone that today's "conservatives" call conservative.

Did Romney lose Colorado by 5 points? Sure. Is that more than Ron Paul primary votes can account for? Sure. However, what you're missing regarding your first point is that a truly anti-war, anti-police-state Presidential candidate carries a great deal of crossover appeal to a lot of independents and Democrats who would otherwise vote straight D (as they did in this election). A lot of vocal liberals hate Ron Paul (etc.) and others wouldn't bother voting for him in a Republican primary (ew, yucky), but candidates with Paul's views resonate a lot more deeply with the younger liberal crowd than candidates with Romney's views.

What you're missing with your second point is that we DO, and WILL, vote for other people like Ron Paul. We've voted Amash, Bentivolio, Massie, Rand, etc. into Congress and the Senate, many voted for Cruz, we tried for Kurt Bills, and I voted for Gary Johnson last night (along with other candidates for other positions). You see all the kneejerk reactions to Rand Paul talking like a politician, which hits emotional sore spots after Ron Paul's boldness, but if you really think we're totally unsatisfiable, I think you've misjudged. There are four years between now and 2016.

We wouldn't have ever voted for Romney, no...and that's why the Republicans truly lost the Presidency not when Romney failed to woo us, but when they nominated him in the first place. You can blame whatever you want for Romney's failure, but do not overlook the fact that we TOLD you this would happen, and we told you he was unelectable. A Republican Bush with a different face was unelectable in 2008 and in 2012. We also wouldn't ever vote for the neoconservative candidates that ordinary Republicans consider "more conservative" than Romney, like Paul Ryan, or Chris Christie, or Marco Rubio. For those of us who view conservatism positively, they are not conservative to us...and for those of us with different identity politics, they're even more unacceptable. Even Flake doesn't inspire us, but it's not because we'll never vote for Republicans other than Ron Paul. It's because we have a different idea of respectable conservatism than people who have been taking their marching orders from Fox News and talk radio.

For most of us, the critical dividing issues between acceptable and unacceptable Republican candidates are generally foreign policy and the police state (and we can also tell the difference between a free market candidate and a corporatist candidate who only pays lip service to the ideals of free enterprise). Foreign policy is a priority to us...and it's obviously a priority to the Republican leadership, considering it's the primary issue they refuse to compromise on (I mean, look at how much the Republicans have been huge spenders). The reason for this, of course, is because conservatives have unconsciously allowed themselves to absorb the views of Lieberman liberal Rupert Murdoch. We will never vote for a Republican who supports a neoconservative foreign policy, so no, the Republican Party cannot capture out vote by trying to churn out another neoconservative puppet. However, they also cannot win the Presidency without us anymore, which will become more true every year as the baby boomers fade and the younger generations rise. The time for empire is over, which is why the Republican Party cannot win the Presidency anymore until they allow someone to win the nomination who has a different foreign policy. That's what it comes down to: It's not about Ron Paul the man. It's about respect for the Constitution, and not supporting eternal war. Those are the concessions the Republican Party must make to capture the vast majority of our voting bloc.

On your third point, Congressional races can be different from Presidential races for a number of reasons. First, the crossover appeal to independents and Democrats is much greater in a Presidential election, due to the President's foreign policy role. Second, look not only at how much better the well-funded Romney performed than underfunded Congressional liberty candidates, but how much better he performed with the underfunded Congressional neoconservative candidates in similar districts (of course, bias in funding is going to limit your comparison pool). I don't have the numbers for you, but I can tell you that it would be a much fairer analysis.

You have to look at the demographics here: Neoconservative foreign policy is not the future. Federal social conservatism and disrespect for civil liberties is not the future. Today's younger generations are DRASTICALLY divided regarding our economic outlooks, but the Republican Party's most extreme foreign policy and social views totally alienate the vast majority of entire generations. The current Republican base cannot see this, because they're so homogeneous, being comprised mainly of middle/upper-middle class baby boomers and their families. They're vehemently defensive of their social traditions, scared of change, and so scared of changes in the world that they overreact to threats (War on Terror)...and it is primarily stubbornness on THESE issues, not on economic issues, that has catalyzed so much attrition to the Democrats. Of course, Obama's foreign policy isn't really any better than Bush's, but his rhetoric is marginally better, so the gradient is in his favor.

Without a Republican Party that even remotely speaks to younger generations on issues we consider so "obvious," the Democrats have captured our attention to a huge degree and indoctrinated many of us on more complex economic issues...and Obamabots are the result. The Republican's replacement of actual fiscal conservatism and free market principles with huge spending and corporatism has made this so much easier as well: America's youth are more keenly aware of our economic decline than older generations on average, and we know it started long before Obama. Without a champion of true free market values to set us straight, we have learned to associate Republican economic policies with decline, and too many have fallen into the waiting arms of socialism in search of a solution. Ron Paul has done a LOT to reverse this process, but the longer the Republicans remain obstinate on foreign policy and refuse to hand us the reins, the faster they will fade into complete irrelevance (to the economic doom of us all, I might add).
 
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I'm not sure why you keep making personal remarks. You know I never engage in that stuff.

There are lots of factions who believe they're the only principled ones.

Do you think Romney voters would always vote for the GOP candidate? That they're all party loyalists or something?

How do you explain so many Romney voters didn't vote for Ron Paul/Rand Paul (and, admittedly, DeMint) endorsed candidates?

Right you would never infer that people are sore losers.

So how does it feel now that the shoe's on the other foot?
 
So why is it that the Democrats are better at coalition building than Republicans? They have everyone ranging from anti-tax blue dogs to avowed socialists in their party. Is it as simple as the fact that we're nominating the wrong candidate? Seemed to me Ron was the candidate throughout the primary with the broadest base of support.
 
We wouldn't have ever voted for Romney, no...and that's why the Republicans truly lost the Presidency not when Romney failed to woo us, but when they nominated him in the first place.

Well, that was my main point. Thanks, I was starting to feel awkward.


..but it's not because we'll never vote for Republicans other than Ron Paul. It's because we have a different idea of respectable conservatism than people who have been taking their marching orders from Fox News and talk radio.

For most of us, the critical dividing issues between acceptable and unacceptable Republican candidates are generally foreign policy and the police state (and we can also tell the difference between a free market candidate and a corporatist candidate who only pays lip service to the ideals of free enterprise). We will never vote for a Republican who supports them...and the Republican Party cannot win the Presidency without us anymore, which is why the Republican Party cannot win the Presidency anymore until they allow someone to win the nomination who has a different foreign policy. That's what it comes down to: It's not about Ron Paul the man. It's about respect for the Constitution, and not supporting eternal war. Those are the concessions the Republican Party must make for our vote.

I disagree with you there. There are two problems with that:

1 - When W. was running on a humble foreign policy in 2000, there were still plenty of libertarians/paleos who didn't vote for him and actively opposed him. Again, the LP just ran a candidate against Amash claiming he wasn't a true libertarian or something.

2 - Most importantly, the trade-off isn't worth it for the GOP if you're implying the "purists" need to be satisfied. That platform alienates lots of traditional GOP voters. . Again, would most of those people vote for, say, Flake or Lee? Of course not, it'd be the lesser evil stuff all over again. Did they vote for Connie Mack in FL?
 
Romney's loss had nothing to do with us, your delusional if you think it did

Says the Romney supporter who signs up on a Ron Paul forum with a RonPaul25 forum name. You really tricked us, we totally believe you are one of us!
 
Haha! LMAO! Fuck Romney! Hey GOP, I thought you didn't need Ron Paul supporters to win?

This is what happens when you cheat Ron Paul, his supporters and his Primary delegates and try to force us to vote for the Obama clone uber liberal Romney!

FUCK YOU!

Exactly.
 
I'm not sure why you keep making personal remarks. You know I never engage in that stuff.

Oh, well. Relieved to hear it.

Are you guys sure you are Ron Paul supporters?

What I take from this thread is that you and others must be horrified with Austrian economists and Ron Paul's positions on these issues.

You probably hate Ron Paul's views on economics, welfare and redistribution of wealth.

If you, as an Obama booster, want to criticize Romney's policy proposals, that's fine...

You're a de fact Obama supporter...


That's flat out lying and making up stuff. C'mon, you're better than that.

Imagined it all, did I?

Still, it's kind of worrying. Amash should have this wrapped up by now in a district like this.
 
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Oh, well. Relieved to hear it.

I don't care if you make that kind of politically related points.

And aren't you more of an economic populist?

Yeah I guess this demands some explanation. Basically over the past year I've definitely moved to the left. This means nothing except that my economic views have changed, which I'd be glad to discuss if anyone's interested. The hostile and radically closed-minded attitude that many within the "Liberty movement" take on, while having nothing to do with the reasons for my change of heart, certainly made it easy to walk away once I started questioning. Plus, I'm not the only person I know who has moved to the left after being "awoken" to politics by RP. As nasaal said, if you care about the effectiveness of your movement you ought to be aware of how you approach people who see things differently and what happens in cases like mine. I still respect the hell out of Ron.

To dannno and PauliticsPolitics, appreciate your responses!

To Sola_Fide, no I don't. I don't go on this forum at all actually.

You, in reply:
That's all fine by me. Really. I've said it many times.

(...) So, what you want is Ron Paul for president and Jill Stein for governor. Anything else is a road straight back to ruin--and sooner, not later.
 
I don't think you understand. CO is the tipping point after winning FL and OH. Winning FL and OH wouldn't be enough. Plus, do you really want me to believe the same Ron Paul supporters who wouldn't vote a guy personally endorsed and commended by Paul like Mack would actually vote for a moderate pragmatic like Romney if it wasn't for the "ostracized" factor? C'mon.

I have no idea what do you mean with the 2nd sentence. You have the influence you have. I used facts, not wishful thinking.

You're misunderstanding the point. We're not saying if he hadn't ostracized us we'd have voted for him. We're saying if they didn't ram Romney down our throats as a publicly unloved nominee and instead went with the grassroots phenom that is Ron Paul, we'd have had all the party line votes, a big chunk of indies, a small chunk of Democrats, and all of us... and Ron Paul would be president.

There is nothing Romney could have done to get my vote, but there are some on the fence that he certainly ostracized.

But you're here to minimize us, as always, just as SailingAway said.
 
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