Miscarriage = baby; Abortion = "mass of cells"

I dispute it AND I deny it. Having denied it, you are now proven wrong as the "undeniable" has, in fact, been denied.

But you don't really believe that. You know full well that parents have an obligation to take care of their children.

The fact that Objectivists try to deny something this obvious only points to the absurdity of Objectivism. You might as well deny some basic theorem of geometry.
 
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But you don't really believe that. You know full well that parents have an obligation to take care of their children.

The fact that Objectivists try to deny something this obvious only points to the absurdity of Objectivism. You might as well deny some basic theorem of geometry.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to erowe1 again.
 
Well, I see a difference. To me a nanny state (i.e., socialism) is a system in which the state is taking care of people financially who are not victims of a specific crime, per se. The idea behind the state is to see to it that one does not wrong another (at least that's how I perceive it).

Socialism deals with money, primarily. A nanny-state is Authoritarianism. Think of it this way; Child restraint seats in automobiles. People don't need a law to protect their children, but they demand a law to protect other people's children. What they fail to understand is that they are giving the state yet another way to intrude into their lives, and that these demands have repercussions...such as having another reason to be stopped by cops. "Scared" cops, as admitted by Fivezeroes.


You can "invert" that to get this this: Obviously slaves are "individuals". The mothers are not, in so much as that they are not distinct from their unborn. Any "Rights" of the mother are considered only as part of the Rights of the unborn.

The "real politik" of Rights is that they are backed by violence. We only have those Rights that we can defend. This is why the 2nd amendment is so vital. As you've pointed out, the unborn are defenseless....so no, my statement cannot be inverted. Even in a "gestalt" mother/unborn situation, the mother alone would have to advocate for their combined Rights.
 
Religion has nothing to do with it. The libertarian philosophy is based on the non-violence principal. Hurting another human being is wrong unless it's in self defense. You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that, and taking a life is the ultimate hurt. A fetus isn't a human being you say? They have a beating heart at 1 month gestation, functioning ears at 5 months, they respond to their mothers voice, they startle at loud noises, they LOOK like babies as early as 12 weeks, before a woman even starts to show. Their personalities are showing long before they are born. My daughter was active all throughout my pregnancy and is still a very active girl. My son was so lazy I visited the doctor to make sure he was still ok at 6 months gestation, a characteristic he still exhibits today. When does a fetus become a human being? I don't know the answer to that, neither do you, neither does anyone else. I'm an atheist, but I know the difference between right and wrong, and taking someone else's life is wrong, because this life is all you get. There is no afterlife, there is no Heaven or Hell, there are no ghosts. In the famous worlds of Will Munny " It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have"
A fetus can not become a human being. The act of becoming a human being is being removed from the woman in question and taking in the first breath of oxygen - as an independent non-parasitic organism. Sure, it still needs to be raised and taken care of, but it is now a person with an identity/birthday/parents. It is now roughly equivalent to you and I.

and I completely agree with you that it is always wrong to take a life, even in self-defense, because that individual no longer exists and never will be brought back into existence. There was some value to that individual, even if they were trying to kill you.

However, there are varying degrees of homicide - some of which are legal and some of which are not. Clearly murder and voluntary manslaughter are not equivalent to involuntary manslaughter and abortion. We don't (and shouldn't) throw people in jail for making mistakes or doing unethical things. We don't (and shouldn't) throw people in jail for being irresponsible.
 
I DID have an easy time with the response.

And I let PLENTY of penny-ante provocation slide.

I added that snarky remark afterward, deliberately, because I thought you were ABOVE crap like that.

It will be easy to NOT add snark in the future because A.) I reckon we don't have a whole lot to say to each other and B.) I now know you are NOT above crap like that.
What are you talking about? I didn't use any "crap" or provocation (at least, not intentionally).

I am familiar with newly minted TEENAGERS mounting such "arguments".
Do you think this^^ is a reasonable way to respond to someone you perceive as snarky to get the conversation back on track? Good sir, I don't know of anyone who would consider this approach reasonable.

I really don't have anything against you personally, and I hope you don't hold a grudge. I apologize if I wronged you. I make a serious effort not to do that, and sometimes fail. :(
 
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But you don't really believe that. You know full well that parents have an obligation to take care of their children.

The fact that Objectivists try to deny something this obvious only points to the absurdity of Objectivism. You might as well deny some basic theorem of geometry.

Are you saying it always is that way or should be that way? You know parents have options.

Unchosen positive obligations are at odds with negative rights. The logic of the positive “right to life” can justify just about every kind of aggression.

Edited: "Unchosen positive obligations..."
 
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A fetus can not become a human being. The act of becoming a human being is being removed from the woman in question and taking in the first breath of oxygen - as an independent non-parasitic organism. Sure, it still needs to be raised and taken care of, but it is now a person with an identity/birthday/parents. It is now roughly equivalent to you and I.

and I completely agree with you that it is always wrong to take a life, even in self-defense, because that individual no longer exists and never will be brought back into existence. There was some value to that individual, even if they were trying to kill you.

However, there are varying degrees of homicide - some of which are legal and some of which are not. Clearly murder and voluntary manslaughter are not equivalent to involuntary manslaughter and abortion. We don't (and shouldn't) throw people in jail for making mistakes or doing unethical things. We don't (and shouldn't) throw people in jail for being irresponsible.
Psychologists generally argue that a baby doesn't become a "Human Being" until it develops an ego (typically 6 months-2 years out of the womb). What do you think of this?

Just to nitpick, people are thrown in jail for being irresponsible. This is the legal notion of "Criminal Neglect", "Criminal Negligence", etc.
 
Psychologists generally argue that a baby doesn't become a "Human Being" until it develops an ego (typically 6 months-2 years out of the womb). What do you think of this?

Just to nitpick, people are thrown in jail for being irresponsible. This is the legal notion of "Criminal Neglect", "Criminal Negligence", etc.

I haven't decided on that issue, I just can't make up my mind.

I wish people were thrown in jail for actual crimes.
 
I haven't decided on that issue, I just can't make up my mind.

I wish people were thrown in jail for actual crimes
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Absolutely, 1000% agreed. A lot of people are in jail for "pre-crime" and various petty things that really don't warrant being thrown in a rape cage. Welcome to Incarceration Nation. :(
 
I mean you no disrespect, but I find it completely ridiculous for people to say they lost a child that never existed - it had no birthday, no memories, no name, no clothes and you didn't even hold it on your arms. Miscarriages (abortions) are a common occurrence, and if one believes in a god then one must also believe that God chooses which fetuses survive and which do not. In your case, your first attempt resulted in failure - and it was God's will.

Not sure if you tried again, but I assume you did? I was always taught growing up in a fundie environment that miscarriages were a blessing from God, meant to strengthen a person and lead them to either be better biological parents or to adopt.

...

...

Never existed? to something that has been "apart" of you for an extended period of time? Something that you can feel, something that makes you sick, something you can feel kicking (depending on how far we are talking here), something you might have already gave a name and reffer to it as, making plans of things you will do with your child, thinking of years to come, feeling the closeness that has come between you and your significant other... Maybe the rediculous statement isn't "the child that never existed." I am so blown away how someone can question this issue.
 
...

...

Never existed? to something that has been "apart" of you for an extended period of time? Something that you can feel, something that makes you sick, something you can feel kicking (depending on how far we are talking here), something you might have already gave a name and reffer to it as, making plans of things you will do with your child, thinking of years to come, feeling the closeness that has come between you and your significant other... Maybe the rediculous statement isn't "the child that never existed." I am so blown away how someone can question this issue.

Glad I burst your bubble.
 
This is a problem that can't be solved by the state. Try as you might, involving the state in this matter will always do more harm than good.
True. I suspect any solution the regime comes up with for us will result in an armistice between the various sides of the issue-not peace.
 
This is a problem that can't be solved by the state. Try as you might, involving the state in this matter will always do more harm than good.

You know what? I didn't offer a "state solution" to the problem. I argued against a mentality and mindset that has developed IMO by people seeking state protection for abortion. It's easy to kill something if you have dehumanized it. We see that in war all the time. I hear some people who claim to be pro choice say that they really don't want to see abortions happen, but they just want it to be "legal and safe". (It's legal, but the safety of it is questionable). If that's really what the other side wants, then they should applaud efforts to humanize the fetus so that more women will "choose life". Of course a concern is that in our society, if someone sees someone else as "human" they are more likely to want to extend legal protection to that person even if it means going to extremes to do so. We saw that in our own U.S. civil war.[1] It's easier to enslave a group of people if you believe that group is "not quite human". Sure, you can still believe that and be against slavery. And you can concede the humanity of all people and still support slavery for other reasons. But in general it's easier to kill, enslave or other wise mistreat someone who's "not quite a person."


[1] Regardless of what one may think of Lincoln's motives, the debate over slavery was a driving force for the passions for both sides as seen by one senator caning another almost to death because his brother had been called a "pimp for slavery" on the senate floor.
 
Socialism deals with money, primarily. A nanny-state is Authoritarianism.
Ok, well this is semantics, splitting hairs, etc. It's the actions and what's done (or not done) that actually matters.

Think of it this way; Child restraint seats in automobiles. People don't need a law to protect their children, but they demand a law to protect other people's children. What they fail to understand is that they are giving the state yet another way to intrude into their lives, and that these demands have repercussions...such as having another reason to be stopped by cops. "Scared" cops, as admitted by Fivezeroes.
Well, I can't speak for anyone in the law enforcement business, but in general when someone chooses to go into the law enforcement business they ought to be getting training on the risks involved (I can't imagine that they don't); if a person doesn't want to deal with those risks then they should look for a different career, look for ways to better handle those risks (invent something, come up with better procedures, etc.), or find ways to reduce or eliminate most or all of those risks.

I'm not saying that I approve or condone of the existence of those risks. In fact, you could basically say that I fall under the category of someone who wants to find ways to reduce or eliminate most or all of those risks & that's why I'm also a participant on the Zeitgeist Movement forum. My interest is essentially to try to eliminate the dependency on money and trade to in turn phase out crime, corruption, war, poverty, pollution, etc. by advocating the use of automation and advancements in technology, persuading people to study robotics, engineering, etc. The idea is that society's problems are technical, not political, and the idea is to reduce or eliminate the need for the state or law enforcement.

Developing a special kind of incubator, or coming up with techniques for transferring a fetus to a surrogate mother, are solutions that would benefit a mother that either doesn't want to continue a pregnancy, has a medical problem or complications that pose a problem to the pregnancy, a mother or father that wants to keep the child, the child itself, and a society that doesn't condone killing unborn children or considers it immoral.

Regarding laws to protect children or other people, instead of having laws mandating procedures, design and build technology so accidents won't happen anymore (or at least to significantly reduce them). For example, this could be achieved with the use of air bags, sensors, communication between each vehicle and intersection systems, driverless cars, etc. (in fact, some of these ideas have or are starting to be implemented). Imagine no more need for traffic lights, traffic jams being a thing of the past, cars alternately criss-crossing each other through intersections (like internet packets through routers), etc.

The "real politik" of Rights is that they are backed by violence. We only have those Rights that we can defend. This is why the 2nd amendment is so vital. As you've pointed out, the unborn are defenseless....so no, my statement cannot be inverted. Even in a "gestalt" mother/unborn situation, the mother alone would have to advocate for their combined Rights.
The idea behind having a state is specifically to preserve rights regardless of an individual's ability to defend them; otherwise, we have anarchy.
 
This is a problem that can't be solved by the state. Try as you might, involving the state in this matter will always do more harm than good.

State involvement will not solve the murder problem, but states can prosecute murderers. Abortion is murder, and therefore a state issue.
 
Are you saying it always is that way or should be that way? You know parents have options.

Positive rights are at odds with negative rights. The logic of the positive “right to life” can justify just about every kind of aggression.

Everybody has options. Somebody contemplating breaking into another person's house to steal their stuff has options.

Put in the abstract as a "right to life" of course that phrase can be abused. But there do exist at least some positive rights. Children have a right to the care of their parents. I do not have have the right to kick my kids out of my house in the cold of winter with nowhere to go and tell them to fend for themselves. That would be robbing them of what is rightfully theirs. They own property in me.

To your first question, yes, I'm saying what should be, not what always is. Whenever we talk about rights (and wrongs), we are talking about ought, not is.
 
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I addressed this in another thread, but I felt it deserved its own thread. I'm sick and tired of the hypocrisy in our society that pretends the humanity of an unborn child depends on whether its "wanted" or not. My wife and I lost our first child about halfway into the pregnancy. I was firmly "pro choice" at the time. I didn't understand why my wife was so devastated. Then I read the books she was given from the hospital. One was called "the loneliest grief." All of these books emphasized how we had really "lost a child" and that it was "okay to grieve because its the same as if you had lost any other child." I'm sure any public figure who told a woman who had a miscarriage to "get over it" because she "just lost a parasite" or a "tumor" or a "mass of cells" would be vilified in the media. And yet....I hear these terms used to describe aborted babies. I hear people falsely claim that if you believe an unborn child is a human being that must be because of "religious reasons". Well my religion hasn't changed. My understanding of what happens inside the womb prior to birth has. My understanding of the hypocrisy of a society that treats children differently based on whether or not they are "wanted" has changed. Ron Paul put it well when he talked about how as an obstetrician he could be held criminally liable for harming an unborn child....as long as that child was "wanted".

Now I know all of the arguments of the other side. That we "shouldn't enslave women for 9 months" or that there will be "thousands or millions of back alley abortions" if Roe v Wade is overturned (an inflated claim IMO that ignores excess deaths of women from legal abortions) and that we "don't want pregnancy police" etc. I even respect some of those arguments. But I have no respect for the arguments put forward by those who say that there is no reason, other than religion, to believe a fetus is actually a human being who's life should be respected and, at least to some degree, protected. That position displays either extreme ignorance or dishonesty. I'm not mad at those who have it. I used to be extremely ignorant on the subject. I just ask, if you have that position, to go to any obstetrician worth his/her salt and ask what counsel is given to those who have had a miscarriage. You may be surprised by the answer. I certainly was.
Jm, thank you for bringing up this important subject. THe grief of miscarriage is so real and even though some time has passed, may you and your wife find consolation with one another and with God. I've had two miscarriages, many years ago, and then not able to have more children. I do love the babies and still choke up when holding one and seeing their loving and trusting eyes.
 
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Everybody has options. Somebody contemplating breaking into another person's house to steal their stuff has options.

Put in the abstract as a "right to life" of course that phrase can be abused. But there do exist at least some positive rights. Children have a right to the care of their parents. I do not have have the right to kick my kids out of my house in the cold of winter with nowhere to go and tell them to fend for themselves. That would be robbing them of what is rightfully theirs. They own property in me.

In those situations, the parents responsibility is to make the child available to others who might wish to take over guardianship.

To your first question, yes, I'm saying what should be, not what always is. Whenever we talk about rights (and wrongs), we are talking about ought, not is.

[Made some changes from first post.]
 
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Yes, but after the parents have consented to taking those parental responsibilities. "Positive rights" can come from consensual agreement.
Obviously a parent who kicks their kid out of the house and tells them to fend for themselves does not consent to parental responsibilities. That lack of consent doesn't remove the obligations.

If they’re the biological parents, they usually have the option early on of not having those obligations. We discussed this recently in another thread wrt the biological mother.
They can delegate those responsibilities. They can put their child up for adoption or something. But if you really believe that parents have no obligation to their children to begin with, then you don't believe they are obligated to do even that. A mother could give birth in a field and leave her baby there, and taking what you've said at face value, your view would entail that in doing that she did nothing wrong.
 
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