Mary the Queen of Heaven

[heavenlyboy34]

wrong, deadly so. No one is saved under the OC since Jesus came. No one.

I didn't claim otherwise.

 

[Kevin007]

"running the race" isn't salvation, only sanctification. You can add nothing to Jesus' perfect, once for all finished work. Salvation is freely given to all, but only those who accept Jesus as their Savior recieve the free gift. No one can save themselves.

 

[Kevin007]

I didn't claim otherwise.

oh, really? you sure did- she said she was saved in 2000. If she had died in 1999, she would have not been saved. You are saying, because she took the sacraments she would have been saved under the OC?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

accepting Christ alone IS THE ONLY way to be saved.

No more than waving a magic wand is. Accepting Christ is only the beginning of a lifetime journey toward salvation. Otherwise you could accept Christ and spend the rest of your life sinning deliberately and being a generally horrible person and still somehow wind up saved. Also, your standard excludes people too young or mentally impaired to accept Christ. Fail.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

oh, really? you sure did- she said she was saved in 2000. If she had died in 1999, she would have not been saved. You are saying, because she took the sacraments she would have been saved under the OC?

No I didn't. You're just making this up, which is why you can't quote me as saying such.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

"running the race" isn't salvation, only sanctification. You can add nothing to Jesus' perfect, once for all finished work. Salvation is freely given to all, but only those who accept Jesus as their Savior recieve the free gift. No one can save themselves.

No, it's about salvation. No one can save themselves, but there is also no free pass. That doctrine was made up out of thin air by protestants. (though I'm sure others have championed it that I don't know of. It's a very tempting proposition for those who don't know better-similar to OSAS in that regard.)

 

[Kevin007]

No more than waving a magic wand is. Accepting Christ is only the beginning of a lifetime journey toward salvation. Otherwise you could accept Christ and spend the rest of your life sinning deliberately and being a generally horrible person and still somehow wind up saved. Also, your standard excludes people too young or mentally impaired to accept Christ. Fail.

this is not true, and impossible; believers are a new creature in Christ and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. As usual, a catholic or orthodox pulling the "license to sin" card;


1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6)

 

[Kevin007]

Rom.6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Jn.3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Jn.5:24 “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

 

[Kevin007]

No, it's about salvation. No one can save themselves, but there is also no free pass. That doctrine was made up out of thin air by protestants. (though I'm sure others have championed it that I don't know of. It's a very tempting proposition for those who don't know better-similar to OSAS in that regard.)

??? the "free" pass is through Jesus, nothing else- no one else. What must I do to be SAVED? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Good deeds don't save you. Obedience doesn't save you. Amix of grace and works do not save you. Only Jesus does/can. Have you accepted His free gift of Salvation, HB?

 

[Kevin007]

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

• Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [SUP]29[/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,[SUP] 30[/SUP]since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is only.
• Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned.
• Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"

http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-alone-or-do-we-need-works-too

 

[heavenlyboy34]

this is not true, and impossible; believers are a new creature in Christ and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. As usual, a catholic or orthodox pulling the "license to sin" card;


1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6)

It's absolutely true and possible. One is indeed made anew in Christ, but he still has responsibility to endure the trials demanded of a Christian to the end. It is very possible to fall along the way and lose salvation. Your quote proves my point.

because you are not under the law, but under grace.

to be under grace is to endure

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

This entirely supports the Orhtodox position. This is a present perfective intransitive action in Pauline language.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

??? the "free" pass is through Jesus, nothing else- no one else. What must I do to be SAVED? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Good deeds don't save you. Obedience doesn't save you. Amix of grace and works do not save you. Only Jesus does/can. Have you accepted His free gift of Salvation, HB?

False. You're confused. James 2:17-

So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless

 

[Kevin007]

False. You're confused. James 2:17-

[h=2]James 2:24, not by faith alone[/h] The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith--a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

 

[Kevin007]

to be under grace is not to endure. Where in the Bible is that? Enduring is something we do. God did it all at the Cross. How many works save you HB?

 

[lilymc]

It's absolutely true and possible. One is indeed made anew in Christ, but he still has responsibility to endure the trials demanded of a Christian to the end. It is very possible to fall along the way and lose salvation. Your quote proves my point. to be under grace is to endure

This entirely supports the Orhtodox position. This is a present perfective intransitive action in Pauline language.

Salvation and enduring trials are two different things.

Of course we have to endure trials in life. It takes time to grow spiritually, and to mature, and learn and gain wisdom. Sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. (I know I have!)

But sanctification is different than salvation.

I think this is where many people get mixed up. Evidently, some churches mix up sanctification with salvation. They are two different things.

 

[lilymc]

[h=2]James 2:24, not by faith alone[/h] The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith--a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Excellent post. I'd give you rep, if I could.

A true, alive faith inevitably leads to good works.

The two go hand in hand, but we are justified by faith, not works. To think otherwise is putting the cart before the horse.


Thank you for all your posts, Kevin!

 

[erowe1]

You're getting into OSAS and similar doctrinal territory. That doesn't stand up to scriptural or historical tests.

Yes it does. According to Scripture, every person who has ever been justified is guaranteed to be ultimately glorified. Paul dwells on and repeats this point very explicitly in Romans 5 and 8. And there are many other Scriptures from various authors that affirm it. On the other hand, the number of places where the Bible entertains the possibility of anyone who had once been justified ending up not being glorified is zero.

 

[erowe1]

Yes, faith goes a long way. But faith without works is dead. Our works are to seek Christ and enter into communion with His Church, not create our own.

Dead faith is not saving faith. It is the same as no faith at all. But the way into the Church is by saving faith. Nobody has ever had such faith without belonging to Christ's one true, holy catholic, orthodox, Church.

 

[erowe1]

The Church of the New Testament.

This is encouraging.

 

[erowe1]

You're getting into OSAS and similar doctrinal territory. That doesn't stand up to scriptural or historical tests.

Now that I have read more of the thread, and what you're replying to, I don't even see how you reached that conclusion from what she said.

She made no mention of OSAS. How did you get it from her post? And on what basis could you possibly disagree with what she said about the Church in that post?